[Archived] Transfer Talk Part 2

[blueboy3333]

When the likes of Manchester United , Arsenal , Liverpool come calling for your players ,

Then sadly we become a selling a club as these are massive clubs with massive support and plenty of cash . It offers the player a massive step up .

However when FULHAM , yes FULHAM come calling , surely anyone with half a brain wouldn't be as quick to take the money? Bar knocking a bit of the debt off , we have just made a divisional rival a tad stronger on the playing side , whilst weakening our own .

This anology which Bowyer has stated a number of times how I.e United sold Ronaldo , Liverpool sold Suarez is not quite the same . They also spent that transfer money and a hell of a lot more in buying other top players for their squads .

All clubs buy , sell and trade . However Rovers trading has us now shopping at the type of shops which the likes of Oldham , Doncaster and Clubs of that stature are shopping at .

Teams like Preston will be shopping at better outlets and will probably finish higher than rovers this season .

When assessing what Bowyer is saying , take a look at where some clubs were 5 years ago and where we was . In some cases they were many divisions below us , in some cases those teams are now either in our division or some are in Premiership .

The worst thing though , we can't compete in the transfer market for the type of players which 6 years ago we would of laughed if we were getting linked with them .

We are well and truly in the reject bin and when you are shopping there , no doubt one or two will increase in value , but remember you've also paid wages for however many seasons that player has played for you . So the transfer fee minus the wages often becomes very small

I thought it was the owners that sold Cairney?

Your last sentence suggests it doesn't matter to you how much a players value increases because they will still have been paid wages? Jesus Wept, that's a desperate attempt not to give the manager any credit.

For comparison: Best is on £30k a week and cost £3m - a total cost of £8m-ish when he finally fooks off.

Rudy is on £15k (reasonable guess) and cost £200k - a total cost of about £1m.

We'll get £7m back so Rudy made the club £6m and scored a lot of goals. Best has scored once and cost £8m.

You can try this comparison with some of the rest of the shyte that Singh/Kean brought in too (with the possible exception of Rhodes who will end up costing the club a lot more than Rudy).

[Stuart]

Reading that post Glen, it really brings home how far we've fallen. Preston may outdo us this season, Bumley almost certainly will.

Are we really not allowed to expect more than that?

[TBTF]

The only way it makes sense is that the Venkys want as much of their money back as they can get.

To be honest AL , I bet even they realise by now that getting their money back is never happening. I think they have decided that these monthly losses which they keep having to cover at £2million a month has to stop and the Club now has to operate within its means.

As we have said before, that in itself is not a bad thing but we are starting from such a low income base because they have alienated the fan base, that we will be signing people from non League in the near future.

The problem I have with it is that they have built this hideous problem for themselves by putting total idiots in charge , Shebby being about the worst of them. Its all fine and dandy saying it has to operate on its own 2 feet but when you have put so much debt and cost into the Club it takes a long time to unwind. And the obvious conclusion to all that , as fans. is that we have to now sit and suffer very inferior players which further threatens our status even in the Championship ..

So for me its not necessarily about clawing back what they have spent so much as capping what they are putting in going forward and that well appears to have run dry.

So if that's the case, Gav's opening question to this thread is very much relevant because if there is no more coming then we are just going to wither on the vine and eventually die.

Its all the catastrophe that we thought it was going to be 3 or 4 years ago so the Venky apologists have run out of road.Scraping along to survive in the championship is very much what this season is .Many thought that was the name of the game in the PL under Allardyce before gravity could eventually no longer be denied. The same thing is about to beset us here but this time gravity will take us into the nether regions of the football pyramid and that is what I believe this debate topic is all about.

These Indian charlatans have to go . The club will undoubtedly be on the edge if they do but we can't even put the first building block down whilst they are still our owners.

Utterly tragic and the authorities (whoever the hell they are) ought to hang their heads in shame.

PS think I meant to post this in Gavs ''Venky Protest ''thread''!!

[roverandout]

No, we must accept where we are and be happy with it, its the natural order of things

[Gav]

Reading that post Glen, it really brings home how far we've fallen. Preston may outdo us this season, Bumley almost certainly will.

Are we really not allowed to expect more than that?

If we had a crumb of comfort that things may get better, at some stage, any stage under this lot you could argue for sticking with them.

But we simply have no hope in the current setup, we're going backwards, we've been going backwards since those 2 idiots walked on to the pitch 5yrs ago.

They need to go, sorry to keep saying it but they must...

To be honest AL , I bet even they realise by now that getting their money back is never happening. I think they have decided that these monthly losses which they keep having to cover at £2million a month has to stop and the Club now has to operate within its means.

As we have said before, that in itself is not a bad thing but we are starting from such a low income base because they have alienated the fan base, that we will be signing people from non League in the near future.

The problem I have with it is that they have built this hideous problem for themselves by putting total idiots in charge , Shebby being about the worst of them. Its all fine and dandy saying it has to operate on its own 2 feet but when you have put so much debt and cost into the Club it takes a long time to unwind. And the obvious conclusion to all that , as fans. is that we have to now sit and suffer very inferior players which further threatens our status even in the Championship ..

So for me its not necessarily about clawing back what they have spent so much as capping what they are putting in going forward and that well appears to have run dry.

So if that's the case, Gav's opening question to this thread is very much relevant because if there is no more coming then we are just going to wither on the vine and eventually die.

Its all the catastrophe that we thought it was going to be 3 or 4 years ago so the Venky apologists have run out of road.Scraping along to survive in the championship is very much what this season is .Many thought that was the name of the game in the PL under Allardyce before gravity could eventually no longer be denied. The same thing is about to beset us here but this time gravity will take us into the nether regions of the football pyramid and that is what I believe this debate topic is all about.

These Indian charlatans have to go . The club will undoubtedly be on the edge if they do but we can't even put the first building block down whilst they are still our owners.

Utterly tragic and the authorities (whoever the hell they are) ought to hang their heads in shame.

PS think I meant to post this in Gavs ''Venky Protest ''thread''!!

[glen9mullan]

I thought it was the owners that sold Cairney?

Your last sentence suggests it doesn't matter to you how much a players value increases because they will still have been paid wages? Jesus Wept, that's a desperate attempt not to give the manager any credit.

For comparison: Best is on £30k a week and cost £3m - a total cost of £8m-ish when he finally fooks off.

Rudy is on £15k (reasonable guess) and cost £200k - a total cost of about £1m.

We'll get £7m back so Rudy made the club £6m and scored a lot of goals. Best has scored once and cost £8m.

You can try this comparison with some of the rest of the shyte that Singh/Kean brought in too (with the possible exception of Rhodes who will end up costing the club a lot more than Rudy).

Football is a results business , results generated on the pitch not how much we made or lost on a player .

This "taking part is the main thing" attitude you appear to have is your prerogative .

I'm very much in a different mould , I'm very much in the "play to win mould" .

Rovers during the 2015-2016 will face their stiffest test yet, as will Bowyer .

In some respect , Bowyer will do well to keep us up as he not only faces losing his better players , but he faces trying to build a team with freebies and loans .

However , as Preston showed last season , if you are astute and good in the dugout you can still generate success on freebies and loans

[chaddyrovers]

Anyone capable of explaining why Venkys saw fit to sell Cairney against the wishes of the manager? For the life of me, I don't understand it. I could have understood Bowyer selling him if he believed he could have got better in, -

Didn't Bowyer approval the sale? Kamy said he had been told that Bowyer had approval the sale. I also think he did aswell.

I wouldn't have sold him but he has gone now.

[Mullionvagrant]

so you want to keep unhappy players who have been offered better deals elsewhere, like Cairney, or let the raw talent we have run down their contracts, let them leave on a free, and then still not exit the embargo cos our losses are too big because we didn't sell players when we could? I'm not suggesting a firesale but good offers for the odd player can't be ignored, just like it can't be ignored by other Championship clubs.

Yep i do. I'd definitely have kept cairney. hardly think he is the type of personality not to be 100% professional etc. Never suggested otherwise for us.

Much rather keep our talent than see it used to balance FFP and disappear into the pockets of ???

[yoda]

Didn't Bowyer approval the sale? Kamy said he had been told that Bowyer had approval the sale. I also think he did aswell.

I wouldn't have sold him but he has gone now.

Singular bubble that

[Parsonblue]

If we had a crumb of comfort that things may get better, at some stage, any stage under this lot you could argue for sticking with them.

But we simply have no hope in the current setup, we're going backwards, we've been going backwards since those 2 idiots walked on to the pitch 5yrs ago.

They need to go, sorry to keep saying it but they must...

And then what? Please could someone explain what happens when there is no new owner on the horizon and Venkys decide to go. Who pays the wages the next day? How is the Academy funded? Who funds daily costs of the Senior Training Centre? Who funds the general day to day running costs of the club? These are serious questions but I've yet to hear any answers. Getting rid of Venkys I understand but what I don't understand is what happens next? I spoke to some Pompey fans at Stanley last season and although they had the Trust in charge there was an acceptance that League Two football would be the order of the day for some time to come. Indeed, Pompey were dreadful that day against a particularly poor Stanley side. On the evidence of what I saw on several occasions last season at Stanley, the entertainment value on the pitch can get an awful lost worse than what we have at present. Of course, geographically Portsmouth are much better suited to attract larger gates than ourselves in terms of catchment area and the fact that the only club near them is their deadly rival. I'm more than happy to see the owners go if there is a genuine alternative other than the hope that something may or may not turn up.

[Gav]

As I've stated on another thread, the club will be picked up for £1 by someone, anyone, it won't go out of business if they leave now.

History shows us that club like us don't go out of business, yes we could be the first, but it's highly unlikely.

Pompey, Leeds, Bournemouth, Coventry, Rangers, all clubs that went to the brink and got rescued. I'd be happy to join that group if it means getting rid of Venkys.

League 1, 150m in debt is possibly where we'll be this time next season, then things are really bleak!

[Tom]

As an aside I hope this South African lad is as good as the last South African captain we had

Would kill for a Mokoena now

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

However when FULHAM , yes FULHAM come calling , surely anyone with half a brain wouldn't be as quick to take the money? Bar knocking a bit of the debt off , we have just made a divisional rival a tad stronger on the playing side , whilst weakening our own .

And if that money was enough to take us out of the embargo - and nobody else was coming in for Rudy in the necessary timescale ? I don't know that is the case or not - do you ?

I am amazed at the out cry over Cairney - would I have sold him - no - but I don't know all the facts.

Bottom line - we made a profit on a player who last season was far below the heights of the previous season. And for all those saying that GB was playing him out of position - just remember the season before he was player of the season largely playing ON THE RIGHT WING !!!!!!! I just don't buy the blame given to GB for Cairney's form last season.

[blueboy3333]

Football is a results business , results generated on the pitch not how much we made or lost on a player .

This "taking part is the main thing" attitude you appear to have is your prerogative .

I'm very much in a different mould , I'm very much in the "play to win mould" .

Rovers during the 2015-2016 will face their stiffest test yet, as will Bowyer .

In some respect , Bowyer will do well to keep us up as he not only faces losing his better players , but he faces trying to build a team with freebies and loans .

However , as Preston showed last season , if you are astute and good in the dugout you can still generate success on freebies and loans

PNE had a big budget for that league, hence why they could afford the likes of Garner, Gally and Beckford. Lets see how they do next season before hailing Grayson as the New Messiah in a long line of New Messiah's.

Not sure where you get the 'taking part is the main thing' bit from. I know it's a results business but also not going bust and trying to trade at a profit are also vital, and always have been for our club. The club is in a mess thanks to the likes of Kean/Singh/Anderson paying a lot of money for some utter garbage. You obviously think pissing a load more money up the wall is the way to go. It isn't, this club is now going to have to do it the hard way. Unless of course you know someone who will definately get us promoted next season

[imy9]

Anyone capable of explaining why Venkys saw fit to sell Cairney against the wishes of the manager? For the life of me, I don't understand it. I could have understood Bowyer selling him if he believed he could have got better in, - but the owners taking that sale on by theirselves.........

what does that say to the fans on here? Why have they done it?

If we want to get out of this transfer embargo do we not have show that we are trying to cut costs? So selling a player for close to 3 million will go a little way to doing that?

That is just me trying to make sense of it.

I don't know how FFP works but I don't see any other reason why Venky's would sell now and not before.

[tomphil]

The TC money alone won't make a dent in the debt nor will it make much effect on the embargo unless they know they are going to get 5 mill plus for another player which would then make a difference. Personally I think he's been sacrificed to pay the bills for a few months or other money owed. Wasn't there a date to pay something back, poss the loan against the last parachute or something ?

True to say though that with the players gone off the payroll, the sale of Cairney, no signings and poss Best paid off then they can surely argue big strides are being made to get costs down. Others like Bolton have got around it that way it seems. Something is truly suspicious if they don't take that into account when it's reviewed.

[Stuart]

And then what? Please could someone explain what happens when there is no new owner on the horizon and Venkys decide to go. Who pays the wages the next day? How is the Academy funded? Who funds daily costs of the Senior Training Centre? Who funds the general day to day running costs of the club? These are serious questions but I've yet to hear any answers. Getting rid of Venkys I understand but what I don't understand is what happens next? I spoke to some Pompey fans at Stanley last season and although they had the Trust in charge there was an acceptance that League Two football would be the order of the day for some time to come. Indeed, Pompey were dreadful that day against a particularly poor Stanley side. On the evidence of what I saw on several occasions last season at Stanley, the entertainment value on the pitch can get an awful lost worse than what we have at present. Of course, geographically Portsmouth are much better suited to attract larger gates than ourselves in terms of catchment area and the fact that the only club near them is their deadly rival. I'm more than happy to see the owners go if there is a genuine alternative other than the hope that something may or may not turn up.

This really can't worry you that much or you would, like the rest of us, demand better than Bowyer.

It's very simple to me, it's Premier League or bust. We CANNOT hope to stay in this league for any length of time. That's because there is nothing in it for Venkys long term. We do not have 3, 4 or 5, or however many years you are up to now, to give to Bowyer to come good. Without PL income, we will be League One again. Then you can forget about Academies and Senior Training Centres

It's really not a case of wanting Venkys to leave, it's wanting them to leave on our terms and not on theirs. We need them to get interested or go. What is your hope? That they will bring down the costs to comply with FFP and pay off the debt before we leave, seek out a buyer and sell on good terms? Who would want to buy a club that they cannot invest in to promote their own interests. Are we a sleeping giant? If we are then we are currently comatose. If they leave, costs can be brought down by selling everyone for a song if necessary. The Trust that you deride so much will be the ones negotiating with the creditors and players to seek out settlements over the long term. The club going into administration will see most of the non-football creditors miss out, and we will start again. Why are you only interested in the town club providing they are a league team? Sometimes you have to start again. Look at Oxford United (ironically the club of Michael Appleton), they had to leave league football to be able to get back on the straight and narrow.

You've always said things may have to get worse before they get better. Well I agree, they may and probably will. So as we cannot trust Venkys, why shouldn't we discuss ways that we might realistically see the back of them?

[patrickvalery]

Whilst I despise the owners as much as the next man, is it not better to at least try and salvage the club and stay one level beneath the PL (rather than drop out completely and start from the conference)? Because that's the way I see it and I'm pretty sure it's why Venkys give Bowyer time despite poor results. If he continues his knack of buying cheap and selling high, whilst reducing the wage bill and avoiding relegation, then we're slowly chipping away at the debt and building more stable and foundations for the future. It's not a huge leap to imagine the owners see things that way. If he manages those three tasks and we come through the other side then the climb back to the top is as small as possible.

It's a fairly good idea in theory. But I would doubt any manager in world football to juggle those three tasks for a prolonged period of time. I have major concerns that with the dismantling of the squad and replacing them with journeymen like Coke will only end in tears. And considerably quicker than Bowyer or Venkys realise. It's a pity because I personally think with no ffp or need to slash the wage bill, Bowyer would have had us very close to promotion by now.

[all you need is duff]

As an aside I hope this South African lad is as good as the last South African captain we had

Would kill for a Mokoena now

Mokoena was a good defensive midfielder and we may not have gone down if we had him in 2012. However, I would hate to see him partnering one of our current centre midfielders!

[Mani]

So apart from Cairney who else has Bowyer bought cheap and sold high?

Gestede is worth a lot more than what we have paid for him, but I see little else in this assertion that Bowyer is great at picking players.

Thankfully Venkys haven't accepted many bids but I'd say Gestede, Cairney and Marshall are the big ones in terms of their worth today. (Combined £13m with an outlay of £1.5m)

I also believe that if sold we would make money on Evans, Conway Spurr and Duff...though it would probably be a few hundred grand rather than million.

But one of the best things he's done is move the inflated egos on and bring to the fore the likes of Olsson and more recently Henley and Raya..

As iv said on many occasions I have several issues with Bowyers management but under the financial constraints and egos he inherited, I don't think anyone coulda done a better job of recruitment.

[bluebruce]

As an aside I hope this South African lad is as good as the last South African captain we had

Would kill for a Mokoena now

I love that that has to be an 'aside' in a thread titled transfer talk, whilst everybody goes on at enormous length about entirely different topics that have entirely different threads. I get that not much is happening transfer wise, and that topics flow from one to another in a natural discourse, but there's an aggravating amount of digression here lately.

PNE had a big budget for that league, hence why they could afford the likes of Garner, Gally and Beckford. Lets see how they do next season before hailing Grayson as the New Messiah in a long line of New Messiah's.

So I might as well add my own briefly. Some of us (myself included) have rated Grayson for a long time. It wouldn't be the first time I've championed him for manager on this board. Would certainly swap Bowyer for him tomorrow.

[Tom]

In fairness Henley has looked ready for a long time but rarely got the chance and Olsson wouldn't have got a look in had Spurr not been inured

He even dropped Olsson for Spurr later in the season who then played awful

[bluebruce]

I also believe that if sold we would make money on Evans, Conway Spurr and Duff...

???

[davulsukur]

Duffy I would imagine

[bluebruce]

Duffy I would imagine

Ahhh, thanks, I genuinely hadn't thought of that. Probably because I can't see how much profit we could make (yet) on a player who has shown glimpses but been wobbly at times, been injured half the one season we've had him, and who likely has a sell on clause from Everton.