[Archived] Is It Time To Protest Against Venkys?

[yoda]

@#/? hell will you please stop posting in gibberish bloody riddles(or are you just not fluent in English?)wait a minute!!! Shebby, is that you?

I love the irony on this MB sometimes

[Exiled in Toronto]

Not a lot anyone can do apart from not go.

But as i said to you ..how many fan protests has rid a club of its owners ..? Fantastic and novel approach Gav ..youre obviously very intelligent .. protest all you like ..they ll go when they have to go ..

Thanks for humouring me just one post Gav...i wont mention humouring you 11000 plus posts ..

This is the key point. Saying "let's protest" is starting with a solution hoping to fit it to a problem. Fact is all they achieve is making the fans feel better by feeling like they are doing something. Who would the protest be aimed at influencing? And what could whoever they are do tangibly to get rid of Venky's? Gross incompetence is not a crime.

It seems pretty clear to me only two things will get rid of Venky's before they run out of money or willpower: shareholder pressure in India or finding them a buyer who gives them a way out they could live with. And both currently seem impossible. There was nothing in the dossier to make Venky shareholders lose confidence in the people running their company, and no-one will take on the debt as it stands.

[chris_h]

As far as I can see nobody has addressed the 'Armageddon Factor' - that being Venkys deciding that they have had enough and sod off leaving an unplayable debt behind.

[Stefan Hedgehog]

As far as I can see nobody has addressed the 'Armageddon Factor' - that being Venkys deciding that they have had enough and sod off leaving an unplayable debt behind.

i would say venkys got the club for nothing,paid 24mill and had jones on board to recover that.any shrewd investor looking for a club with potential should be looking at ewood.i would say the club is worth 70/80 million,if venkys walk away owing 150 million the mark up to the new investor is the same.

[joey_big_nose]

I'm not in Lancashire or close to the situation so take my analysis with a pinch of salt. But it is how I see it.

I think the core issue is that we don't really have a plan to protest for. Protesting against something is not generally a good strategy, especially when you are dependent on those people currently, it saying fook them - which might feel good but it doesn't help.Venkys are in a position where they could really hurt the club if they so desired. We really really don't want to end up like Oyston and Blackpool.

The best solution I can see is working with them towards a managed sale. Owning the club is not helping them financially, it is not helping the club at all in football terms, and things are only going to get worse. They are probably clinging to the hope that we are going to fluke promotion. We are not. Together I think a group of supporters, a new owner and venkys could find a sale solution which is acceptable to everyone and much better than working in conflict with each other. The protest should be aimed at being for this plan for everyone (including Venkys) mutual benefit.

Whatever the solution is no one is going to buy us with the debt. A large proportion of it will need to be written off, and Venkys need to be onside to do that. They'll need to feel like it is the right and moral thing to do. Realistically asset stripping the club is not going to generate much cash for them and totally destroy their reputation and be a total admission of defeat. Taking some of the loss on the chin in the only option. But that will take some convincing and they will need to see the supporters as partners, not antagonists.

I suggest the process would be:-

1) Start a protest for calling for new owners (not attacks on Venkys) - calls for football expertise, strong management, present board. This positive approach will play better in the media, as well as focussing on the issues rather than making it personal.

2) Open a channel of communication with venkys (God knows how - this seems unbelievably difficult)

2) Start working on sale strategy with business orientated supporters (perhaps JW could be brought back to head this if he was so inclined? That would be a massive boost)

4) Get Venkys representatives round the table. Understand what their red lines are in terms of debt they can write off

I know its not easy, but a negative anti venkys protest I can't see getting positive results unless we have a definite idea of who we will sell to and they have a workable offer.

[Paul]

For those who want action or protest in some form it seems to me there are a number of questions and issues which need addressing, some of which have been tried previously:

1. An individual(s) prepared to lead / organise any actions, which doesn't necessarily mean marching on the streets

2. Real evidence of criminal activity provided to the authorities

3. If such evidence doesn't persuade the police / CPS the ability to bring a private prosecution - presuming that is a legal possibility

4. Real buyers waiting in the wings

I know the responses off by heart but the stark reality is unless No. 4 is in place forcing Venkys out will only result in Rovers disappearing forever - there won't be any romantic hope filled games on Witton Park nor Guardian articles about the phoenix rising from the ashes of a once great football club.

Finding buyers is the only solution.

[Waggy76]

Getting rid of the Venkys is the ONLY solution ....

[chris_h]

Getting rid of the Venkys is the ONLY solution ....

What then if you get your wish?

[Paul]

Getting rid of the Venkys is the ONLY solution ....

Which is why finding buyers is the solution. Without buyers the club will disappear, probably in days if not over night.

[Waggy76]

There will be nothing left if they carry on owning the club in 3 years ....

They dont give 2 f###s about the club ...

[JBiz]

There will be nothing left if they carry on owning the club in 3 years ....

They dont give 2 f###s about the club ...

Yes waggy I agree but on paper the club owes the holding company and therefore them around 60/80m - and there ain't anything that stopping them asking for it back on the way out

[Waggy76]

That will be 200mil in 3 years time ....

Portsmouth, Leeds , Glasgow Rangers are still playing !

And at their respective grounds ...

[K-Hod]

@#/? hell will you please stop posting in gibberish bloody riddles(or are you just not fluent in English?)

wait a minute!!! Shebby, is that you?

Nah, he didn't call anyone Robbie ;-)

[Stuart]

I'm not in Lancashire or close to the situation so take my analysis with a pinch of salt. But it is how I see it.

I think the core issue is that we don't really have a plan to protest for. Protesting against something is not generally a good strategy, especially when you are dependent on those people currently, it saying fook them - which might feel good but it doesn't help.Venkys are in a position where they could really hurt the club if they so desired. We really really don't want to end up like Oyston and Blackpool.

The best solution I can see is working with them towards a managed sale. Owning the club is not helping them financially, it is not helping the club at all in football terms, and things are only going to get worse. They are probably clinging to the hope that we are going to fluke promotion. We are not. Together I think a group of supporters, a new owner and venkys could find a sale solution which is acceptable to everyone and much better than working in conflict with each other. The protest should be aimed at being for this plan for everyone (including Venkys) mutual benefit.

Whatever the solution is no one is going to buy us with the debt. A large proportion of it will need to be written off, and Venkys need to be onside to do that. They'll need to feel like it is the right and moral thing to do. Realistically asset stripping the club is not going to generate much cash for them and totally destroy their reputation and be a total admission of defeat. Taking some of the loss on the chin in the only option. But that will take some convincing and they will need to see the supporters as partners, not antagonists.

I suggest the process would be:-

1) Start a protest for calling for new owners (not attacks on Venkys) - calls for football expertise, strong management, present board. This positive approach will play better in the media, as well as focussing on the issues rather than making it personal.

2) Open a channel of communication with venkys (God knows how - this seems unbelievably difficult)

2) Start working on sale strategy with business orientated supporters (perhaps JW could be brought back to head this if he was so inclined? That would be a massive boost)

4) Get Venkys representatives round the table. Understand what their red lines are in terms of debt they can write off

I know its not easy, but a negative anti venkys protest I can't see getting positive results unless we have a definite idea of who we will sell to and they have a workable offer.

This is an excellent post - I'm just not sure how we would go about this with the impenetrable Venkys. I do like the idea of bullet 1 but 2 and 3 have been tried without having any starting success. Trying things out of the spotlight are very easy to ignore.

Who are Venkys' representatives though? Shaw? Bowyer? Both of them are making hay with Venkys here and are unlikely to do so under new owners. Of course, thanks to FFP, it's very difficult to see who would come in and for what motives. To compete without owner collateral we need 20,000 home supporters paying the top end ST prices/merchandise. Although Blackburn is a deprived town, it's not impossible for us to do so but the club needs to be 'right'.

We would need a rallying cry from the new owners for everyone to reach that deep into their pockets. The club's PL pledge is a good idea in principle but against a backdrop of a "junior manager" and imminent player sales including a surprise of the wrong variety makes it hollow. Nobody trusts Venkys to do the right thing. Even if they came out and said 'We've missed the FFP deadline so no further sales this Summer' there would be cynicism - but we can't even get that.

It does seem slightly different than Kean in that he reached a point of no return with the fans; with Venkys it's slightly different. They could easily change public opinion by changing we staff at the club but they won't. Like some medieval monarchy who won't listen to the peasants. They haven't grasped that it's not their club and never will be, it's ours.

As far as protests go, the trouble is that we would receive no attention, let alone support, from the national media and the 'local' media are in Venkys' pocket. So support would have to be universal across the fanbase. What kind of message would get universal support? That's like asking for something that Abbey and Parsonblue would both agree to.

Perhaps both could comment on what kind of campaign they would both sign up to. It may not be "Venkys Out", it may be (as you say) "Something else in"; it may be a rallying cry to stay away fans - but it would need to be something that everyone could get on board with, aside from "you're not real fans if you stayaway/go because of Venkys".

[Paul]

There will be nothing left if they carry on owning the club in 3 years ....

They dont give 2 f###s about the club ...

First point I'm not sure there is anything left now without their money

Second point - no argument from me.

[JBiz]

That will be 200mil in 3 years time ....

Portsmouth, Leeds , Glasgow Rangers are still playing !

And at their respective grounds ...

Leeds are still in questionable ownership, Portsmouth are fourth tier and Glasgow rangers don't exist. If you mean rangers FC, are we the biggest or second biggest name in the history of our countries league? I don't think you should assume it would be easy to get a newco back up as quickly.

I also don't buy it being double in 5 years. It's obvious that we are trying to bring costs down whilst the expectation to be competitive remains.

Find a buyer who's willing to buy a business that's 100m in debt (and therefore clear it) whilst still taking on monthly losses. I can't see that happening.

Until we are in a position where our income is at least relatively similar to our outgoings- we need someone to keep the bills paid (or someone who has the capital to lend us more).

Even if Venkys wrote off their debts and walked tomorrow, the week after we'd have to sell most of our players to pay for rhodes/bests wages.

I hate these guys as much as anyone, and it's not Stockholm syndrome. What is truly stopping them from winding us up? Pride?

[Athlete]

I have a feeling the Rao's have an exit plan in place and in 12month time it will be a different discussion

What the outcome will be I don't know

But the sooner these charlatans go the better cos each month debt is growing at an alarming rate

The only cure for that debt is promotion but it doesn't look like that's on Venky's radar or have a management team remotely getting us anywhere near

[ABBEY]

Gav, I dont think Cairney was sold without Bowyer's approval.

This has to be your stupidest post ever ... Can you read or is bowyer lying to the press?

[Parsonblue]

I'm very much in agreement with the posts of Exiled and Paul on this issue. How protesting at games will impact on owners who are based in India, rarely appear in the UK and have no UK business interests I'm not sure. It will have no impact on Venkys Indian Board or shareholders who will be blissfully ignorant of any protests and would have no interest in them anyway as they would have no impact on businesses based in other parts of the world. If and when Venkys go there would have to be a buyer ready to step in and carry the debt and the continuing losses because, make no mistake, if Venkys up sticks tomorrow the losses will continue. Shouting for Venkys to go is the easy part. Putting something in place that will sustain the infra structure that Jack put in place won't be so easy. The debt and the running costs are well beyond a Supporters Trust and one suspects that it will again be someone from abroad who has sufficient cash to fund it as a vanity project for a few years.

[Athlete]

Gav, I dont think Cairney was sold without Bowyer's approval.

Yes right is today Sunday.. What interview did you listen to?

[Athlete]

I'm very much in agreement with the posts of Exiled and Paul on this issue. How protesting at games will impact on owners who are based in India, rarely appear in the UK and have no UK business interests I'm not sure. It will have no impact on Venkys Indian Board or shareholders who will be blissfully ignorant of any protests and would have no interest in them anyway as they would have no impact on businesses based in other parts of the world. If and when Venkys go there would have to be a buyer ready to step in and carry the debt and the continuing losses because, make no mistake, if Venkys up sticks tomorrow the losses will continue. Shouting for Venkys to go is the easy part. Putting something in place that will sustain the infra structure that Jack put in place won't be so easy. The debt and the running costs are well beyond a Supporters Trust and one suspects that it will again be someone from abroad who has sufficient cash to fund it as a vanity project for a few years.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying they won't listen and are oblivious and the structure at Ewood are for self preservation

But the debts are growing with Venky's so something has to give it has to

Don't compare us to the 60s or 70s it's totally different we may have been skint and didn't have the fantastic facilities we have today but those skint cared about the club unlike today's charlatans

[Stefan Hedgehog]

I'm very much in agreement with the posts of Exiled and Paul on this issue. How protesting at games will impact on owners who are based in India, rarely appear in the UK and have no UK business interests I'm not sure. It will have no impact on Venkys Indian Board or shareholders who will be blissfully ignorant of any protests and would have no interest in them anyway as they would have no impact on businesses based in other parts of the world. If and when Venkys go there would have to be a buyer ready to step in and carry the debt and the continuing losses because, make no mistake, if Venkys up sticks tomorrow the losses will continue. Shouting for Venkys to go is the easy part. Putting something in place that will sustain the infra structure that Jack put in place won't be so easy. The debt and the running costs are well beyond a Supporters Trust and one suspects that it will again be someone from abroad who has sufficient cash to fund it as a vanity project for a few years.

plus your mate will be out off a job,were are we supposed to demostrate at the IPL games,i went to india with two friends venkies aint intrested in speaking,too no marks,demonstrations may hurt the team and the club in the short run but long turn it will be known as the turning point,sell your shares if your that worried.

[Mullionvagrant]

There have been so many thing suggested since the takeover in the papers e.g Telegraph, Lancashire Telegraph, Guardian etc which have never been denied or confirmed.

I think our first port of call would be to compile a number of questions which are based on referenced quotes from the above which have not been answered and ask why not and whether we can have confirmation on them from Venkys/club.

Open letter to Venkys or club etc.

I feel that if we keep the pressure on them re: answering these as a denial of wrong doing categorically and a written statement is not unreasonable to expect. It would benefit those that had allegations against them to have their name cleared too etc.

Rather than we are saying based on evidence that you have....more it has been alleged by such a paper that...can you please deny this etc...

[Parsonblue]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying they won't listen and are oblivious and the structure at Ewood are for self preservation

But the debts are growing with Venky's so something has to give it has to

Don't compare us to the 60s or 70s it's totally different we may have been skint and didn't have the fantastic facilities we have today but those skint cared about the club unlike today's charlatans

I think your last sentence makes a key point. In the late 60s, 70s and 80s, we didn't have fantastic facilities in terms of the ground and training complexes. Regulations were also more lax and so in many ways we survived on a wing and a prayer. However, maintaining the present facilities and complying with all the various regulations surrounding the ground on matchdays means that we will continue to make losses before we even begin to address the wage bill. I was reading yesterday that if the sale of West Brom goes through it will mean that 12 of our Premier League clubs will be under foreign ownership. Sadly, it seems that is the way the game is going at the top level.

plus your mate will be out off a job,were are we supposed to demostrate at the IPL games,i went to india with two friends venkies aint intrested in speaking,too no marks,demonstrations may hurt the team and the club in the short run but long turn it will be known as the turning point,sell your shares if your that worried.

So who is this future owner who is going to step in and cover the debt and cover the continuing losses? When these owners go the debt and losses will continue to grow until someone steps in to cover them.

[Stefan Hedgehog]

I think your last sentence makes a key point. In the late 60s, 70s and 80s, we didn't have fantastic facilities in terms of the ground and training complexes. Regulations were also more lax and so in many ways we survived on a wing and a prayer. However, maintaining the present facilities and complying with all the various regulations surrounding the ground on matchdays means that we will continue to make losses before we even begin to address the wage bill. I was reading yesterday that if the sale of West Brom goes through it will mean that 12 of our Premier League clubs will be under foreign ownership. Sadly, it seems that is the way the game is going at the top level.

So who is this future owner who is going to step in and cover the debt and cover the continuing losses? When these owners go the debt and losses will continue to grow until someone steps in to cover them.

look sheff wed have found buyers,clubs all the time find buyers,brockhall must be worth 50-100 million sell that