[Archived] Is It Time To Protest Against Venkys?

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Talk of natural levels is all well and good but every year that ticks by sees fanbases and club size become less and less relevant.

Depends which level you're at. The fanbase size determining financial power is only irrelevant if its dwarfed by something else. The Football League TV deal is peanuts and actually decreased slightly the last time it was renewed. So at this level broadcast revenue doesn't trump fanbase revenue. The only thing that does is owner revenue, I agree with you there. But its still a big risk for an owner, pump money and get promoted, you might get it back (if you're willing to put your newfound PL status at risk by not reinvesting the TV money into wages/transfers). Don't get promoted and you may as well have thrown it all in a giant incinerator.

[BlueMonday]

And by the way no one is demanding they put up £15-20 mill. We can all see the financial situation.

We are demanding that Venkys up their game, Yes a new CEO so local decisions can be made, better communication, and a strategy for footballing success.

OR ARE WE REALLY SUGGESTING WE JUST SIT AROUND WHILE ROVERS SINK THROUGH THE DIVISIONS?

And this is precisely the place to be discussing it BTW

[oldjamfan1]

And by the way no one is demanding they put up £15-20 mill. We can all see the financial situation.

We are demanding that Venkys up their game, Yes a new CEO so local decisions can be made, better communication, and a strategy for footballing success.

OR ARE WE REALLY SUGGESTING WE JUST SIT AROUND WHILE ROVERS SINK THROUGH DIVISIONS?

And this is precisely the place to be discussing it.

As I think you said yourself BM, we need

• Swift, decisive management (preferably delivered locally)
• Good communication between owners, club and supporters, and
• Investment where possible

That would hopefully improve the football side of things, there are no guarantees of promotion now, I think most of us realise that.

[BlueMonday]

So are you saying 2002-10 Rovers was normal and current Rovers is terrible? Because (for the financial reasons in my last post), I'd argue 2002-10 Rovers was bloody brilliant, a sustained period of overachievement brought about by superb budget management from Williams, and the appointment of a succession of very good managers. And current Rovers is around average given the size of our fanbase.

Of course there's still someone at fault for the transition from one situation to the other, and that is undoubtedly Venkys in sacking Allardyce and appointing Kean. And I'd argue Jerome Anderson made that decision for them, not to mention a sizeable proportion of our fanbase ludicrously approved of the sacking Allardyce part.

But its not really systematic mismanagement, there have been a string of errors but the management change is the only decision that mattered, that management change caused relegation, and not being in the PL stripped us of 90% of our money. But that's got nothing to do with the decisions made in the past 12 months, which have all been decisions any owners would have made. Its getting to the point in my opinion where Venkys are being blamed for unrealistic fan demands, such as a big transfer budget and guaranteed play-offs. Maybe you think Venkys owe us that, which might be right. But I can guarantee no other owners will give it us, so what's the point in kicking off at Venkys because they won't?

So you are happy with Venkys stewardship and the direction the Club is going in, as the position we are in today, is merely part of the ebb and flow of football and we should be grateful to Venkys for sticking around?

[den]

And by the way no one is demanding they put up £15-20 mill. We can all see the financial situation.

We are demanding that Venkys up their game, Yes a new CEO so local decisions can be made, better communication, and a strategy for footballing success.

Ok.

So you're not going to demand that Lambert is given transfer funds. But you are going to protest that we need a CEO? They're looking for one aren't they?

[K-Hod]

I know Venky's have been bad owners, but for the sake of everyone's health I'd recommend a chill pill or several until we have something concrete to go on rather than detective work based on conjecture....

[Athlete]

Ok.

So you're not going to demand that Lambert is given transfer funds. But you are going to protest that we need a CEO? They're looking for one aren't they?

Are they ? Or are they looking for another powerless pupett

[BlueMonday]

Ok.

So you're not going to demand that Lambert is given transfer funds. But you are going to protest that we need a CEO? They're looking for one aren't they?

Protests need to come collectively from the fan base Den, its not down to me or any individual. But there is growing unrest, of that there is no doubt, how that will manifest itself time will tell.

Yes, we need a competent CEO. Are they looking for one, I don't know.

[den]

Protests need to come collectively from the fan base Den, its not down to me or any individual. But there is growing unrest, of that there is no doubt, how that will manifest itself time will tell.

Yes, we need a competent CEO. Are they looking for one, I don't know.

I know all that BM, but the suggestion that we should go demonstrating is just growing from the frustration that we all feel.

[BlueMonday]

I know all that BM, but the suggestion that we should go demonstrating is just growing from the frustration that we all feel.

Yes it is.

But passive acceptance of what is happening won't make things change. And we can argue about the nuts and bolts of it, but SOMETHING HAS TO CHANGE. Rovers is in terminal decline.

Surely to God we can agree on that?

[den]

Yes it is.

But passive acceptance of what is happening won't make things change. And we can argue about the nuts and bolts of it, but SOMETHING HAS TO CHANGE. Rovers is in terminal decline.

Surely to God we can agree on that?

Of course something has to change.

The decline isn't terminal yet. For me, they can still turn this whole thing around literally overnight, because they do (apparently) have the resources. I guess the only thing I've got to hang onto, is the way they decided to change the manager for the management team we have now. then again, Myers giving up the ghost is troublesome. I'm prepared to wait and see how they respond to Lambert. If that falls apart, he leaves and he's replaced with Kean MK2, then I'll have a decision to make in the summer. Which is a shame really, because I've enjoyed what I've seen and heard from Lambert so far. But this thread is about protests. It's the wrong time.

[OscarRaven]

Imagine you are put in as MD the owners insist that the club balances the books and quickly. They no longer want to put money in and in fact would like to get their money back. Well you know the only way to achieve this is to get to the premier league and quickly so you hatch out the following plan.

Debt is ~104mio and your running an annual loss ~15mio, mainly because wages are 120% of revenue.

Jan 2016 - Starting debt 105mio, 'Invest' 30mio to achieve PL, 2016 loss 30mio

Jan 2017 - Starting debt 135mio, 'invest' 70mio (wages/transfers = 82% of 85mio) to stay in PL, half a season PL money, 2017 loss 28mio

Jan 2018 - starting debt 163mio, 'invest' 70mio to stay in PL, full year PL money, 2018 surplus 15mio (pay down debt)

Jan 2019 - starting debt 148mio, 'invest' 70mio to stay in PL, full year PL money, 2019 surplus 15mio (pay down debt)

ooops relegation....

135mio debt and now rising again.

Even assuming said strategy is successful, that wages and transfers (JW trading club philosophy) are kept at 82% of revenue and PL status is maintained, it still takes 10 years to pay down the debt and start generating a 'profit'. The owners are happy but the fans gripe about lack of ambition and success. In fact the harp back to the good old days of the championship where at least we could compete and occasionally win.

If I were an MD charged with saving the company, I would decide there are safer options to balance the books (doing nothing to tackle debt of course but with 87mio interest free why would you?).

[VinjayV4]

Imagine you are put in as MD the owners insist that the club balances the books and quickly. They no longer want to put money in and in fact would like to get their money back. Well you know the only way to achieve this is to get to the premier league and quickly so you hatch out the following plan.

Debt is ~104mio and your running an annual loss ~15mio, mainly because wages are 120% of revenue.

Jan 2016 - Starting debt 105mio, 'Invest' 30mio to achieve PL, 2016 loss 30mio

Jan 2017 - Starting debt 135mio, 'invest' 70mio (wages/transfers = 82% of 85mio) to stay in PL, half a season PL money, 2017 loss 28mio

Jan 2018 - starting debt 163mio, 'invest' 70mio to stay in PL, full year PL money, 2018 surplus 15mio (pay down debt)

Jan 2019 - starting debt 148mio, 'invest' 70mio to stay in PL, full year PL money, 2018 surplus 15mio (pay down debt)

Assume said strategy is successful, that wages and transfers (JW trading club philosophy) are kept at 82% of revenue and PL status is maintained, it still takes 10 years to pay down the debt and start generating a 'profit'. The owners are happy but the fans gripe about lack of ambition and success. In fact the harp back to the good old days of the championship where at least we could compete and occasionally win. Failed promotion and or relegation are of course catastrophic, you get fired and the club goes bust.

Speaking of going "bust" after what Paul Hunt mentioned in his letter wouldn't Coar also be held liable? Surely his FA position isn't worth that much...

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Excellent post OscarRaven, I do think emotions over-ride actually admitting how the numbers stack up in these situations. And I would go further by saying you didn't factor in non-wages/transfer costs in your outgoings. When we were in the PL under Williams, as you say wages/agents fees covered about 80-85% (to my recollection we were slightly up in net transfer fees). However we pretty much broke even every year, so the other 15-20% will have been taken up with operational costs.

We didn't make any money as a club the last time we were in the PL and it was still a very hard job staying in that was only achieved by a succession of good managers. As soon as we appointed any bad ones, we were in the relegation zone. People argue the increased money from the TV deal means you can make money now. Personally I'm dubious about that, everyone else's TV money has gone up as well, so wages, agents fees and transfer fees will have gone up and Rovers are still behind almost all other PL clubs in terms of overall revenue.

The size of the club dictates we need to pretty much spend all our revenue whilst in the PL just to stay there. So it could be argued that Venkys lose quite a bit of cash funding a promotion push whether its successful or not. As I said in a post a few months ago, the only credible reason for them to do it is so they enjoy playing with and telling their friends about their toy more because its back in the big time, or as an apology and making amends with the fans. Well I do fear that Venkys have gotten bored with the toy now and they've never struck me as the apologetic type.

[BlueMonday]

Unfortunately nobody knows what's in Venkys minds and at this stage who the debt is In fact owed to.

The financials are a train wreck, but they don't get much better sitting still either. The only other option is keep squeezing the wage bill, loans and free's and less on transfers. And unfortunately I don't see Lambert hanging around to shop in the bargain basement. It all points to further football decline what ever they decide to do.

What a way to treat a famous, historic Football Club.

[tomphil]

Imagine you are put in as MD the owners insist that the club balances the books and quickly. They no longer want to put money in and in fact would like to get their money back. Well you know the only way to achieve this is to get to the premier league and quickly so you hatch out the following plan.

Debt is ~104mio and your running an annual loss ~15mio, mainly because wages are 120% of revenue.

Jan 2016 - Starting debt 105mio, 'Invest' 30mio to achieve PL, 2016 loss 30mio

Jan 2017 - Starting debt 135mio, 'invest' 70mio (wages/transfers = 82% of 85mio) to stay in PL, half a season PL money, 2017 loss 28mio

Jan 2018 - starting debt 163mio, 'invest' 70mio to stay in PL, full year PL money, 2018 surplus 15mio (pay down debt)

Jan 2019 - starting debt 148mio, 'invest' 70mio to stay in PL, full year PL money, 2019 surplus 15mio (pay down debt)

ooops relegation....

135mio debt and now rising again.

Even assuming said strategy is successful, that wages and transfers (JW trading club philosophy) are kept at 82% of revenue and PL status is maintained, it still takes 10 years to pay down the debt and start generating a 'profit'. The owners are happy but the fans gripe about lack of ambition and success. In fact the harp back to the good old days of the championship where at least we could compete and occasionally win.

If I were an MD charged with saving the company, I would decide there are safer options to balance the books (doing nothing to tackle debt of course but with 87mio interest free why would you?).

Mate they are going to have to spend money just to keep us in the champ it's that simple.

With the last scenario you describe the end game will be the same, we'll end up down the divisions and they'll still have to prop it up so losses will continue and there is still a likelihood we'll end up in admin. It's death by a thousand cuts so some would take the hit now rather than endure years more of this.

Anyone who thinks we'll just sit in mid table in this division as we are now is kidding themselves. PL will be gone so someone very able to achieve that stability long term will be very difficult to find or afford. Oh and we've no 20 goal a season in a @#/? team man to help us this time either.

Smell the coffee !

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Mate they are going to have to spend money just to keep us in the champ it's that simple.

With the last scenario you describe the end game will be the same, we'll end up down the divisions and they'll still have to prop it up so losses will continue and there is still a likelihood we'll end up in admin. It's death by a thousand cuts so some would take the hit now rather than endure years more of this.

Anyone who thinks we'll just sit in mid table in this division as we are now is kidding themselves. PL will be gone so someone very able to achieve that stability long term will be very difficult to find or afford. Oh and we've no 20 goal a season in a @#/? team man to help us this time either.

Smell the coffee !

I agree Venkys will have to spend money to fund the current wage bill, however do they intend to keep the wage bill as it currently is? They probably slashed it by a quarter just selling Rhodes. The closer we get to our natural fanbase level (which I'd say is League 1), the easier it is to balance the books. So yeah maybe they couldn't keep us in this division but the financially safest approach now for Venkys (the approach that loses them the least money) is to keep taking a chainsaw to our wage bill until the point where it can be met by the money brought in by the fans. And as someone mentioned above, when you look at the amount of players out of contract this summer, that could be exactly what they intend to do.

The only thing that doesn't seem to fit with this picture is bringing an expensive manager in. It does if they think that a good manager will pay for himself because he can achieve the same results with a cheaper playing squad. In which case they've totally ignored the ambition good managers have which spells trouble as Lambert is already sounding the warning bell. All comes back to hoping and praying that the appointment of Lambert is a sign of ambition

[Stuart]

Mate they are going to have to spend money just to keep us in the champ it's that simple.

With the last scenario you describe the end game will be the same, we'll end up down the divisions and they'll still have to prop it up so losses will continue and there is still a likelihood we'll end up in admin. It's death by a thousand cuts so some would take the hit now rather than endure years more of this.

Anyone who thinks we'll just sit in mid table in this division as we are now is kidding themselves. PL will be gone so someone very able to achieve that stability long term will be very difficult to find or afford. Oh and we've no 20 goal a season in a @#/? team man to help us this time either.

Smell the coffee !

The only way that was ever going to work was if the money from that sale was used to improve the rest of the team. It's the only way it made logical sense.

It's like a repeat of the Allardyce situation. That was only sensible if a better replacement was brought in. (A very difficult task).

If Lambert isn't happy then he didn't do his due diligence before joining, and by ignoring our recent history and selling our main goal threat (like it or not) he has blood on his hands as well. I'm sure it was for the right reasons but it's not looking very 'Venkys-savvy' at this juncture.

I'm still hopeful that he will be backed by Venkys but as they don't seem to be in a hurry to communicate with him it may be that they miss the boat.

I'd go so far as to say that they do not recognise when they have an asset at this club because they only want what I would consider puppets - as evidenced by their treatment of Allardyce, Williams, Finn, Hunt, Lambert (who all spoke out publicly) compared to Kean, Agnew, Shaw, Myers, Bowyer (who didn't). This seems as much about cultural differences as it is about lack of football acumen.

Our hope is as much about Pasha's influence as it is about Lambert's IMHO.

[Leonard Venkhater]

The only way that was ever going to work was if the money from that sale was used to improve the rest of the team. It's the only way it made logical sense.

It's like a repeat of the Allardyce situation. That was only sensible if a better replacement was brought in. (A very difficult task).

If Lambert isn't happy then he didn't do his due diligence before joining, and by ignoring our recent history and selling our main goal threat (like it or not) he has blood on his hands as well. I'm sure it was for the right reasons but it's not looking very 'Venkys-savvy' at this juncture.

I'm still hopeful that he will be backed by Venkys but as they don't seem to be in a hurry to communicate with him it may be that they miss the boat.

I'd go so far as to say that they do not recognise when they have an asset at this club because they only want what I would consider puppets - as evidenced by their treatment of Allardyce, Williams, Finn, Hunt, Lambert (who all spoke out publicly) compared to Kean, Agnew, Shaw, Myers, Bowyer (who didn't). This seems as much about cultural differences as it is about lack of football acumen.

Our hope is as much about Pasha's influence as it is about Lambert's IMHO.

Cultural differences, lack of business acumen, arrogant ignorance-A rich family from a faraway land have brought misery to a small Lancashire town ....and it fking stinks,

Anger is an energy!

[tomphil]

I agree Venkys will have to spend money to fund the current wage bill, however do they intend to keep the wage bill as it currently is? They probably slashed it by a quarter just selling Rhodes. The closer we get to our natural fanbase level (which I'd say is League 1), the easier it is to balance the books. So yeah maybe they couldn't keep us in this division but the financially safest approach now for Venkys (the approach that loses them the least money) is to keep taking a chainsaw to our wage bill until the point where it can be met by the money brought in by the fans. And as someone mentioned above, when you look at the amount of players out of contract this summer, that could be exactly what they intend to do.

The only thing that doesn't seem to fit with this picture is bringing an expensive manager in. It does if they think that a good manager will pay for himself because he can achieve the same results with a cheaper playing squad. In which case they've totally ignored the ambition good managers have which spells trouble as Lambert is already sounding the warning bell. All comes back to hoping and praying that the appointment of Lambert is a sign of ambition

I'd have a miniscule of respect for them if they said the reason for this is that they are putting the club up for sale whilst slashing everything back to make us sustainable and saleable. They'd have to write the debt off of course similar to Davies but the end would justify the means.

They won't though will they they'll just succeed in finally strangling us to death and we'll end up in the same situation as if they pull the plug now.

As always with Venkys the situation IS salvageable though.

[Pedro]

I think most likely the protests will start once the season ticket forms hit the door mats Paul. Thousands are already onboard, many more will join in if Lambert walks.

I'll be one of them.

If he goes, it's reverting to backwards steps again. My patience has run out.

[BlueMonday]

I'll be one of them.

If he goes, it's reverting to backwards steps again. My patience has run out.

And this is Venkys legacy, fan base split. And good honest supporters driven to angry fustration and walking away.

Unforgivable

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

The Rao's acquisition of Rovers was nothing more than an Ego trip.India's young nouveau riche flashing their cash to gain position and turn heads.

It's turned us alright...right flurkin upside down and in the dustbin.

[patrickvalery]

I agree Venkys will have to spend money to fund the current wage bill, however do they intend to keep the wage bill as it currently is? They probably slashed it by a quarter just selling Rhodes. The closer we get to our natural fanbase level (which I'd say is League 1), the easier it is to balance the books. So yeah maybe they couldn't keep us in this division but the financially safest approach now for Venkys (the approach that loses them the least money) is to keep taking a chainsaw to our wage bill until the point where it can be met by the money brought in by the fans. And as someone mentioned above, when you look at the amount of players out of contract this summer, that could be exactly what they intend to do.

The only thing that doesn't seem to fit with this picture is bringing an expensive manager in. It does if they think that a good manager will pay for himself because he can achieve the same results with a cheaper playing squad. In which case they've totally ignored the ambition good managers have which spells trouble as Lambert is already sounding the warning bell. All comes back to hoping and praying that the appointment of Lambert is a sign of ambition

They may be looking at it and thinking "poor crowds, poor tv income. Let's reduce the wage bill and claw back some money". But how does that ever help the fact the club is in the mire to the tune of £104m? It may become operationally sustainable. But it would take decades to eat away at that debt.

I'm not really a betting man and I absolutely stand to be corrected. But is it not sensible to think that they have a decent size stadium, a very good training ground, a premier league manager, top class coaching set up and an A standard academy. Why not have a final go at promotion, get the money back and give the club away if we achieve promotion?

[JBiz]

The Rao's acquisition of Rovers was nothing more than an Ego trip.India's young nouveau riche flashing their cash to gain position and turn heads.

It's turned us alright...right flurkin upside down and in the dustbin.

This.

This is one of the only things I think will save us in the end.

If they walk away with their heads in hands after blowing 100m, they won't look good at all. The cultural difference is hard to fully get your head around without some experience of being an Indian billionaire... If they stay quiet, turn it round and achieve some moderate success at any point of the future - it will be a big pat on the back for them and there business gusto, even though we all know the whole shabbang.

I live in hope. I can see Balaji at Wembley firing his uzi into the burnley away support in some dystopian future...