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[Steve Moss]

Audax- Do you even know what a semi-automatic weapon is? You pull the trigger and ONE bullet comes out. Ditto a revolver. And if your concern is a large magazine, a person armed with a revolver can carry several, or speed loaders, and have much the same effect.

So is the answer to make illegal gun free zones in the US? And to put a legal requirement for premises to warn consumers that they have no guns to protect them with and consumers are therefore entering the venue at their own risk? What if something more powerful/clinical than a gun floods the criminal market? Should that be legalised and possession encourages everywhere, resulting in an ever more deadly populace on into the future? And if not then why have guns, seems pretty arbitrary to say anything up to this efficiency of killing is fine, anything above isn't. If America had been founded 300 years earlier, would the right to bear swords be in the constitution but Americans view gun possession with the same horror we do?

If nobody but the police and hardened criminals (who police often know about) have guns then people aren't sitting ducks. Quite the opposite. The impossible-to-predict crackpot isn't able to appear out of nowhere and stage a surprise slaughter.

You still persist in the fantasy that guns can be removed from American streets. That is not the case when there are over 300 million guns in private ownership.

I think gun free zones are a joke. If the sign goes up, then the premises (school, etc.) should be responsible to provide armed guards to ensure security.

[Audax]

Audax- Do you even know what a semi-automatic weapon is? You pull the trigger and ONE bullet comes out. Ditto a revolver. And if your concern is a large magazine, a person armed with a revolver can carry several, or speed loaders, and have much the same effect.

No I'm stupid, I should live in a state that has the 20th highest murder rate you are so happy about.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

You still persist in the fantasy that guns can be removed from American streets. That is not the case when there are over 300 million guns in private ownership.

Not saying it'll be quick or easy. It'll probably take decades of harsh law enforcement, large resistance, a slowly shifting public attitude. But surely it's doable if government is willing to start and stick with it.

Drink-driving and football hooliganism used to be rife in this country. As did sexism and racism across the western world. It's amazing what can be achieved if the will is there. It's a nonsensical and circular argument in my opinion to say I don't want guns made illegal because it can't be done.

[MarkBRFC71]

Those tactics work in gun free zones and among populations who eschew firearms (like gay night clubs). Try that crap in Mohave County, Arizona, and the Islamist terrorist (or any other type of terrorist) would be dead in about 30 seconds.

There is no banning guns in the USA. There are too many of them. All a ban would do is make criminals out of law abiding citizens, increase the already high level of contempt for the government, and make everywhere in the USA a sitting duck to terrorists of all stripes.

More nonsense. Guns can be banned. Give people 12 months to hand them over, or they will, quite rightly, be criminalised. If they don't and get caught - life sentence - no arguments. Gun ownership and intrinsically linked, needless, widespread slaughter would disappear. Is it really that hard to grasp? I notice you handily ignored my points kyboshing the usual archaic tripe reasoning for owning guns, because deep down you know I'm right. There are no good reasons for guns to be widely, easily available to the populace. Not one. None.

What use were your 300 million guns of freedom (other than to perpetrate the crime) in preventing 1000 mass shootings in 1260 days? Your own FBI tells you that 1 in 32 shootings is a 'justifiable homicide' - so they're not really much protection, are they? How many mass shootings have all the other G10 nations had in that time? I don't think that in their combined histories they will have had as many. And remember - that's only the ones with more than 4 death/casualties. Shootings and gun crime hardly gets a mention over here unless it's a school or the numbers killed are sufficiently high - or if the rightwing nutters can tie the word 'Islamist' to it - because it's so widespread and commonplace. When I first arrived it used to shock me when the CBS news app flashed up a DFW shooting (which it does at least once a day) - now it's become 'just another shooting'. It's very sad that a country with such friendly, generous people lacks the nous to see past their own outdated visions of America (2nd amendment and all that rubbish) - and for some unfathomable reason cannot or refuses to see the harm that guns cause.

And don't trot out that nonsense rhetoric about America being the land of the free and of freedom. It's BS - I've lived in the UK and am currently in the US and the level of personal control by the authorities over here is worse. Freedom to shoot people does not equal freedom.

[Audax]

Florida is a big gun rights state, like Texas and like Arizona.

A gay bar like the pulse probably expected something like that on Saturday night as the last thing they would think of happening.

Admittedly, some of these states are high crime enough that one does need to defend themselves.

And yes, semi-automatic weapons, you can disperse a bullet as quick as you can pull the trigger.

[Audax]

Another thing, straight out, guns are banned in many bars.

Maybe Arizona allows them but if you have a gun in a bar, per this article, you won't be drinking. If you have a sign that bans guns from the premises, then, apparently that stands as well.

Guns Allowed in Arizona Bars Starting Wednesday

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2009/09/29/guns-allowed-in-arizona-bars-starting-wednesday.html

I'd guess that many people would not want to go to a bar/pub that allows one to carry firearms inside.

So, there is a whole lot more to this then saying "This crap wouldn't happen in the Mojave desert"; why? Would an AZ. gay bar allow weapons?

Sorry if my words are offensive.

[T J Hooker]

Muslim extremist stabs police chief to death outside home, tortures and kills his wife in front of toddler son, all the way live-streaming it on Facebook.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/06/14/man-who-reportedly-claimed-allegiance-to-isis-kills-french-police-chief-wife.html

Quick! We need to ban both knives and Facebook!

Im pretty sure that carrying a knife, blade, ect... in public is illegal in the uk and would likely get you a serious conviction unless you can prove you where just carrying it for legitimate reasons or if its still in its packaging because you've just bought it and your taking it home

Probably not helping the 'ban firearms argument' though as knife crimes rates are still very high in the uk regardless of the tough laws(but still id rather somebody pulled at a knife on me over a gun any day of the week)

[ultrablue]

I'll post it again - the Us had 175 mass shootings in 2016 before the Orlando attack. None involving a person professing to be a Muslim.

On the same day as Orlando, a man was arrested on his way to a gay pride parade with a small arsenal in his car and a bucket of explosives.

Luckily he was spotted, caught, and laws in California enabled police to arrest him and stop another slaughter. Yet the Orlando shooter bought his assault rifle that week in Florida, no questions asked. He got it the same day. A man the FBI had interviewed twice for ties to extremism was able to legally buy a military killing machine.

Federal gun laws need tightening. No one needs an assault rifle. It needs to be a crime to own one, after a period of amnesty. They are the weapons of killers and terrorists.

If a mate invited you over to show you his bazooka and grenade collection he carries in the boot of his car, you would think him dangerous and call the police. Assault weapons should be thought of the same way.

Probably not helping the 'ban firearms argument' though as knife crimes rates are still very high in the uk regardless of the tough laws(but still id rather somebody pulled at a knife on me over a gun any day of the week)

Laws are not there to deter the crime though, they are there to punish bad behaviour after the fact. If you are found with certain knives, you can be arrested. We don't wait for you to stab someone. If there were no laws on possession the police would be powerless until it was too late.

[Steve Moss]

No I'm stupid,

Don't be so hard on yourself.

Not saying it'll be quick or easy. It'll probably take decades of harsh law enforcement, large resistance, a slowly shifting public attitude. But surely it's doable if government is willing to start and stick with it.

More nonsense. Guns can be banned. Give people 12 months to hand them over, or they will, quite rightly, be criminalised. If they don't and get caught - life sentence - no arguments.

Ah, how quick our supposed moral betters are to consign us less enlightened folks to a lifetime behind bars.

I think what you are professing sounds a lot like statism. Enjoy it in the UK. It won't fly in the USA.

I'd guess that many people would not want to go to a bar/pub that allows one to carry firearms inside.

So, there is a whole lot more to this then saying "This crap wouldn't happen in the Mojave desert"; why? Would an AZ. gay bar allow weapons?

Sorry if my words are offensive.

You obviously don't know Arizona. A decade or two back, many businesses, including grocery stores, posted no gun signs. Gun owners then began to go elsewhere. This posed a problem for grocery stores, etc. as about 1/3 of Arizonans own guns and a higher percentage is sympathetic to gun rights.

The signs quickly came down.

There are "no gun" zones, such as government buildings (in some areas), schools, banks, ball parks, etc. But they are decreasing each year.

I'll post it again - the Us had 175 mass shootings in 2016 before the Orlando attack. None involving a person professing to be a Muslim.

How soon we forget.

[ultrablue]

What have we forgotten Steve? San Bernadino was Dec 2015.

[ultrablue]

Quick! We need to ban both knives and Facebook!

I dont shoot up an apple before I give it to my son. Nor do I send a heartearming birthday bullet to my friend.

Guns are for killing things. Full stop. The right to keep and bear them needs to be monitored much more closely.

[MarkBRFC71]

Don't be so hard on yourself.

Ah, how quick our supposed moral betters are to consign us less enlightened folks to a lifetime behind bars.

I think what you are professing sounds a lot like statism. Enjoy it in the UK. It won't fly in the USA.

You obviously don't know Arizona. A decade or two back, many businesses, including grocery stores, posted no gun signs. Gun owners then began to go elsewhere. This posed a problem for grocery stores, etc. as about 1/3 of Arizonans own guns and a higher percentage is sympathetic to gun rights.

The signs quickly came down.

There are "no gun" zones, such as government buildings (in some areas), schools, banks, ball parks, etc. But they are decreasing each year.

How soon we forget.

You've still not answered my questions, or come up with any sane reasons why you need guns. So come on, stop dodging and spouting BS - and answer the question - why do you need guns? We've established that they are little or no use for self protection, your 2nd amendment is just outdated nonsense, hunting is a vile and cruel blood sport that has no place in modern society, and that the mass proliferation of guns and the ease of which they can be obtained has directly contributed to thousands of innocent American lives being lost each year. Or is simply that there is no justifiable reason and it really is just "shucks, you can't take our guns, because we like guns"?

[ABBEY]

is this true?

[Tom]

More awful news coming out of Orlando

A 2 year old has been dragged away by an alligator at DisneyWorld.

Happened at the lagoon on the property of the most expensive Disney hotel. Entering the water is forbidden but many people sit on the man made beach there.

We've messed around on the beaches at the other hotels.

[Paul]

is this true?

Yes it's true Kinder eggs are banned in the USA in case small children swallow the toys.

It's a question of getting ones priorities right and acting to save lives.

[Dreyski]

I'd give the US shotguns, (bolt action) hunting rifles and handguns. Nobody needs a semi-automatic assault rifle to defend their property. They're designed purely to deliver the maximum amount of bullets in the minimum amount of time.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I'll post it again - the Us had 175 mass shootings in 2016 before the Orlando attack. None involving a person professing to be a Muslim.

Just because none of the others stated they were Muslims doesn't mean they weren't, but gonna concede the point on the basis that if they didn't state it, then they didn't shoot people for religious reasons, so they've no relevance to the argument linked religious extremism with gun violence anyway.

So yeah one attack out of 143 being down to Islamic extremism isn't a lot, but its the ferocity of the attack rather than how many attacks there's been that matters. The other 142 shootings inflicted 164 lethal casualties between them, at a an average of about 1 person killed per "mass" shooting.

That's the difference between religiously motivated violence and normal violence, the aim of the former is to kill as many people as possible, the aims of the latter can be anything but usually involve inconsistent emotions rather than hard determination.

Put another way, Islamic extremism is responsible for 23% of mass shooting deaths in America in 2016. And put even another way, as this 23% of deaths comes from the 0.8% of the population Muslims make up, their killing people rate is 37 times higher than American non-Muslims in 2016.

[Mike E]

Surely any 'average' of mass-shootings must be 4 or higher?

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I think things make the "mass shooting" category if they have so many casualties. This includes people injured as well as killed, which I didn't bother with.

[ultrablue]

Don't get me wrong, the religious extremist attacks are terrible. I'm not trying to downplay the terrorist threat. I'm saying they need to make it harder for anyone intent on doing harm to buy high powered firearms. Be they crazed highschool kids, racist numbskulls, or self loathing ISIS sympathisers. After hundreds of shootings in the last few years, guns are surely the place to focus legislative efforts right now.

[Audax]

A man, Mohammad Moghaddam, was gunned down by Swat but first took hostages in Amarillo, no one but the terrorist killed.

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2016/06/14/report-active-shooter-situation-at-walmart-in-amarillo/ (there seems to be a question as to nationality

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2014/01/14/crime-study-no-increase-in-mass-shootings-no-epidemic-n1778891

Some of those mass shooting stats seem to be in question.

[Audax]

Most of the Orlando victims have Hispanic last names, 80% or better, it was a popular bar in the Puerto Rican community.

This Pastor Jimenez lives in Sacramento California. One can read what he says here; it should not be printed here, it's bad.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/california-pastor-celebrates-massacre-orlando-gay-club-article-1.2673335

It's so absurd and ridiculous to even say these things.

Pastor defends remarks:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Sacramento-pastor-defends-controversial-Orlando-8152900.php

Some discussion forums might boot someone for saying things like this, it is so outrageous, callous and mean.

[Steve Moss]

What have we forgotten Steve? San Bernadino was Dec 2015.

My apologies. I misread.

I think you should check your definition of mass shooting.

is this true?

It is true that whatever adult took that picture is an idiot. Why are they allowing a child to put her finger on the trigger?

As an aside, you have to be 18 to buy a rifle.

[perthblue02]

My apologies. I misread.

I think you should check your definition of mass shooting.

It is true that whatever adult took that picture is an idiot. Why are they allowing a child to put her finger on the trigger?

As an aside, you have to be 18 to buy a rifle.

Yes I am sure the gun was loaded for the photo , how irresponsible of somebody trying to make a point about the stupidity of American laws, shooting a photo with a camera more dangerous than shooting a gun, tough argument to win that one , unlike the good ol''merican family day out at the gun range

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/02/girl-who-accidentally-shot-her-instructor-with-an-uzi-said-the-gun-was-too-much-for-her/?utm_term=.53ad64165722

[Steve Moss]

Yes I am sure the gun was loaded for the photo , how irresponsible of somebody trying to make a point about the stupidity of American laws, shooting a photo with a camera more dangerous than shooting a gun, tough argument to win that one , unlike the good ol''merican family day out at the gun range

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/02/girl-who-accidentally-shot-her-instructor-with-an-uzi-said-the-gun-was-too-much-for-her/?utm_term=.53ad64165722

It's called basic gun safety, Perth. The idiot who put an rifle in the child's hand and then failed to keep her finger off the trigger should be whipped. At a minimum his or her ignorance on firearms is obvious, and his or her opinion can be safely ignored. Many people have been killed because they thought the weapon wasn't loaded, a point I would have thought you'd be on board with if you had any concern for the lives of others.

And gun ranges are good places to practice the use of firearms. I take my children regularly, though to date they only fire .22 (which, while low caliber, is perfectly suited to teaching sight alignment, sight picture, etc...).