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[perthblue02]

It's called basic gun safety, Perth. The idiot who put an rifle in the child's hand and then failed to keep her finger off the trigger should be whipped. At a minimum his or her ignorance on firearms is obvious, and his or her opinion can be safely ignored. Many people have been killed because they thought the weapon wasn't loaded, a point I would have thought you'd be on board with if you had any concern for the lives of others.

And gun ranges are good places to practice the use of firearms. I take my children regularly, though to date they only fire .22 (which, while low caliber, is perfectly suited to teaching sight alignment, sight picture, etc...).

Well as it may have been a photo shoot I would have presumed that the gun was either a prop or an unloaded real one, and on closer inspection of the photograph it may well have been a photoshop composition still does not take away from the message.

But hey yes pointing out that a childs finger appears to be on the trigger is the big problem with that image and message .

So the 2nd amendment which you keep bringing up, would you be happy if it was enforced as and when it was enacted. So your little toys were restricted to the power of those when it came into force. You still have the right to bare arms?

[cmb211087]

More awful news coming out of Orlando

A 2 year old has been dragged away by an alligator at DisneyWorld.

Happened at the lagoon on the property of the most expensive Disney hotel. Entering the water is forbidden but many people sit on the man made beach there.

We've messed around on the beaches at the other hotels.

We stayed at Coronado Springs last year which also has a man made lake and saw an alligator swimming in it. There isn't really anything Disney can do either as they get in through the floods.

Anybody with any common sense knows not to go in the lakes as you just don't know what is in them.

Horrible thing to have happened

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

It's called basic gun safety, Perth. The idiot who put an rifle in the child's hand and then failed to keep her finger off the trigger should be whipped.

Should be whipped?? Bit of an odd one that, surely you don't advocate that as a suitable societal punishment (makes me wonder how that poor Saudi blogger is getting on).

Isn't taking gun safety seriously a bit meaningless whilst also advocating everyone's right to use one? Seems to me a bit like saying you can skateboard down a motorway but ONLY if you skateboard has reflective lights on.

[MarkBRFC71]

Put another way, Islamic extremism, the ease of access to and mass proliferation of guns, is responsible for 23% of mass shooting deaths in America in 2016. And put even another way, as this 23% of deaths comes from the 0.8% of the population Muslims make up, their killing people rate is 37 times higher than American non-Muslims in 2016.

Corrected for you. I take it you mean 23% of the numbers killed, not 23% of incidents? Sadly there will always be nutters aligned to some extremist version of a religion that will carry out atrocities - we will never stop it. Even the idiot Trump's nonsense about building giant walls, banning an entire faith and deporting 11 million people won't stop it happening. All civilised society can do is make it as difficult as possible for people to carry out these attacks by making it as near impossible as we can for them to get their hands on guns and other weapons designed for mass killing.

My apologies. I misread.

I think you should check your definition of mass shooting.

It is true that whatever adult took that picture is an idiot. Why are they allowing a child to put her finger on the trigger?

As an aside, you have to be 18 to buy a rifle.

As well as STILL not answering my question or responding to my points (because you know you have no reasonable argument in favour of guns), you're being deliberately obtuse (or maybe not) about this ad - it's obviously saying that the kinder egg has been banned to protect American children, while the assault rifle hasn't and still poses a risk to them.

Oh and mass shooting - is defined as an incident where there were 4 or more deaths/casualties. Something the US has had over 1200 of in the last 1000 days. Another question for you (which you'll probably dodge - again). Do you think that the widespread and easy availability of guns has, or has not, contributed to that appalling statistic?

It's called basic gun safety, Perth. The idiot who put a rifle in the child's hand should be imprisoned.

Corrected for you. Children should be nowhere near guns in a civilised society.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Corrected for you. I take it you mean 23% of the numbers killed, not 23% of incidents? Sadly there will always be nutters aligned to some extremist version of a religion that will carry out atrocities - we will never stop it. Even the idiot Trump's nonsense about building giant walls, banning an entire faith and deporting 11 million people won't stop it happening. All civilised society can do is make it as difficult as possible for people to carry out these attacks by making it as near impossible as we can for them to get their hands on guns and other weapons designed for mass killing.

You do realise "corrected for you" is the lamest arguing style going right? Do you actually expect anyone to be thick enough to think "he's corrected it for me, that must mean I'm wrong and he's right".

[Norbert Rassragr]

Something needs to be done over there to stop the mental people getting hold of these guns, as the current system(s) are clearly not working. Every month there's some fruitloop shooting strangers in a cinema, at a school and so on, and the Americans fantasise about being Clint Eastwood and shooting the crazy man in the nick of time. They don't seem to be keen on establishing better mental health provisions, or a society where people don't immediately think about taking a violent course of action. At least, that is usually the impression of those outside the USA.

[Steve Moss]

As well as STILL not answering my question or responding to my points (because you know you have no reasonable argument in favour of guns), you're being deliberately obtuse (or maybe not) about this ad - it's obviously saying that the kinder egg has been banned to protect American children, while the assault rifle hasn't and still poses a risk to them.

Oh and mass shooting - is defined as an incident where there were 4 or more deaths/casualties. Something the US has had over 1200 of in the last 1000 days. Another question for you (which you'll probably dodge - again). Do you think that the widespread and easy availability of guns has, or has not, contributed to that appalling statistic?

Corrected for you. Children should be nowhere near guns in a civilised society.

You are entitled to your opinion. I think your opinion is short sighted, emotional and not entitled to much weight. You are entitled to feel the same about mine.

This writer has done a good job explaining himself, and I'll use it to outline my opinion on the firearm issue as it relates to civilized society.

http://monsterhunternation.com/2016/06/15/self-defense-is-a-human-right/

If you want more, there is an entire subject line that is very extensive on the point on this site. Read it.

Something needs to be done over there to stop the mental people getting hold of these guns, as the current system(s) are clearly not working. Every month there's some fruitloop shooting strangers in a cinema, at a school and so on, and the Americans fantasise about being Clint Eastwood and shooting the crazy man in the nick of time. They don't seem to be keen on establishing better mental health provisions, or a society where people don't immediately think about taking a violent course of action. At least, that is usually the impression of those outside the USA.

I agree that more needs to be done to keep firearms from the mentally ill. I suggest that President Obama sit down with the NRA on that narrow issue. He won't, because of politics, but it is a good idea.

[Steve Moss]

https://www.massshootingtracker.org/data

A mass shooting is commonly defined as any incident in which 4 or more people are injured.

None the previous 175 mass shootings in 2016 had any links to Islam.

And France has had more harm from mass shootings that the USA during our so called War on Terror. Gun control has not helped France out, and I doubt it would improve our position on the issue.

http://crimeresearch.org/2016/01/france-suffered-more-casualties-murders-and-injuries-from-mass-public-shootings-in-2015-than-the-us-has-suffered-during-obamas-entire-presidency-508-to-424-2/

[MarkBRFC71]

You do realise "corrected for you" is the lamest arguing style going right? Do you actually expect anyone to be thick enough to think "he's corrected it for me, that must mean I'm wrong and he's right".

Sorry, I wasn't actually saying you were wrong, merely adding to the point you made - apols if it came across that way. Now if I wanted to really be a pedant I'd mention that you'd missed the question mark at the end of the above - but I won't.

[MarkBRFC71]

You are entitled to your opinion. I think your opinion is short sighted, emotional and not entitled to much weight. You are entitled to feel the same about mine.

This writer has done a good job explaining himself, and I'll use it to outline my opinion on the firearm issue as it relates to civilized society.

http://monsterhunternation.com/2016/06/15/self-defense-is-a-human-right/

If you want more, there is an entire subject line that is very extensive on the point on this site. Read it.

I agree that more needs to be done to keep firearms from the mentally ill. I suggest that President Obama sit down with the NRA on that narrow issue. He won't, because of politics, but it is a good idea.

Yep the opinion of a self-confessed right wing gun nut with a vested interest in firearms as a means of income is always a reasoned argument. Some quotes from his bio:

"shooting was about the interaction between me and the weapon. If I did what I was supposed to do, then this mechanical marvel would do what it was supposed to do. It was remarkable. It was fun. I loved guns. I still do. I’m a gun-geek."

"California was becoming increasingly odd, with wacky socialists in charge of everything"

"At some point, I realized that working in federal law enforcement was probably not a good fit for somebody with “authority” issues and complete lack of faith in the federal government."

"So I became part owner of a gun store. I was living the dream."

The mentally ill aren't the issue - guns are. But I don't know what it's going to take over and above the needless carnage that happens day after day after day in the US for your people to wake up and realise. For most nations Sandy Hook would have been it, but for some unfathomable reason you are unable to see the light. Maybe it's stubbornness, maybe it's clinging to outdated notions of a old America, but definitely there are those with a vested interest in the arms industry (and in keeping their own nests feathered - NRA?) that hold enough sway to keep you paranoid about self defence, stirred up about your archaic and outdated 2nd amendment and convinced that you should all be armed.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Sorry, I wasn't actually saying you were wrong, merely adding to the point you made - apols if it came across that way. Now if I wanted to really be a pedant I'd mention that you'd missed the question mark at the end of the above - but I won't.

No worries, apologies too, bit of an over-reaction from me! As I've stated, my opinion on this horrific event is it happened because of a poisonous interpretation of a religious doctrine (a religion that is intrinsically too susceptible to being interpreted along extreme lines IMO), but the extent of the carnage was down to availability of firearms.

Regarding the first, I can only despair at the fact that yet again Muslim leaders everywhere aren't noisily and angrily verbally lynching Mateen in every way possible. That kind of reaction is the only thing that will provide the community pariah threat needed to get a handle on the problem. Regarding the second, it's surely a much easier task. Obama has failed but he was the first one to try. They always say with addictions that admitting there is a problem is half the battle won.

[ultrablue]

And France has had more harm from mass shootings that the USA during our so called War on Terror. Gun control has not helped France out, and I doubt it would improve our position on the issue.

http://crimeresearch.org/2016/01/france-suffered-more-casualties-murders-and-injuries-from-mass-public-shootings-in-2015-than-the-us-has-suffered-during-obamas-entire-presidency-508-to-424-2/

Looks like a rather skewed definition of mass shooting theyve used to arrive at that conclusion.

I see today Mr Trump is meeting with the NRA to ask them about limiting the 2nd amendment rights of suspected homegrown terrorists. That wont be popular with his nativist far-right base, a lot of them are probably on the list.

[JAL]

Most of the Orlando victims have Hispanic last names, 80% or better, it was a popular bar in the Puerto Rican community.

This Pastor Jimenez lives in Sacramento California. One can read what he says here; it should not be printed here, it's bad.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/california-pastor-celebrates-massacre-orlando-gay-club-article-1.2673335

It's so absurd and ridiculous to even say these things.

Pastor defends remarks:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Sacramento-pastor-defends-controversial-Orlando-8152900.php

Some discussion forums might boot someone for saying things like this, it is so outrageous, callous and mean.

Good grief !!

Is this Christian extremism American style ?

[perthblue02]

And France has had more harm from mass shootings that the USA during our so called War on Terror. Gun control has not helped France out, and I doubt it would improve our position on the issue.

http://crimeresearch.org/2016/01/france-suffered-more-casualties-murders-and-injuries-from-mass-public-shootings-in-2015-than-the-us-has-suffered-during-obamas-entire-presidency-508-to-424-2/

Slightly changing the goalposts there Steve, bit of a difference between your almost weekly mass shootings and co-ordinated terrorist attacks, but I will play along using the same logic and sort of attack

Remind me how many terrorists were stopped on September the 11th 2001 with all the guns in America? How many terrorists have been stopped by the armed public in other terrorist linked attacks since then in the US.

Is the answer to combat further co-ordinated terrorist attacks in the US to let anybody who wants one have a surface to air rocket launcher just in case they try another September 11th because your current big boys toys might not be effective in a what if situation?

[Audax]

I'm not going to splash this dirty so and so's picture here but this is interesting:

Title of video: "The Big Fix: BP Deepwater Horizon Oil Spill...."

36 minutes in, note the guard.:

Compare to this picture: http://cdn.hiphopwired.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/who-is-omar-mateen-1.jpg

So, there can't be much significance in this. Just curious.

[Tom]

We stayed at Coronado Springs last year which also has a man made lake and saw an alligator swimming in it. There isn't really anything Disney can do either as they get in through the floods.

Anybody with any common sense knows not to go in the lakes as you just don't know what is in them.

Horrible thing to have happened

We stayed at Carribean Beach a couple of years ago and have pictures of Arlo on the beach there but never went near the waters edge, there's signs everywhere telling you not to.

As you say the Gators are native there and it's an impossible task to keep them out but this is the first tragedy in 46 years.

[Paul]

It's called basic gun safety, Perth. The idiot who put an rifle in the child's hand and then failed to keep her finger off the trigger should be whipped. At a minimum his or her ignorance on firearms is obvious, and his or her opinion can be safely ignored. Many people have been killed because they thought the weapon wasn't loaded, a point I would have thought you'd be on board with if you had any concern for the lives of others.

And gun ranges are good places to practice the use of firearms. I take my children regularly, though to date they only fire .22 (which, while low caliber, is perfectly suited to teaching sight alignment, sight picture, etc...).

I think when one reads this type of response to an image which is part of a valid argument it very strongly makes the point there is absolutely no point in discussing the issue with people who favour gun ownership.

The mindset is so alien to us, and to be fair vice versa, that understanding is impossible to achieve. Those who support gun ownership seem to hold a range of views most Europeans would find hard to comprehend. Nothing will change these deeply rooted right wing attitudes.

I've reached the conclusion America doesn't want gun control and is happy to accept the daily slaughter of its citizens to protect an antiquated constitution which is presumably intended to protect those same citizens.

Secondly there are now so many guns in the USA any attempt at control would be impossible to impose. The majority who own guns won't give them up and criminalising millions of citizens won't work.

[Biddy]

P.S. Who knows if it's actually true.

[perthblue02]

Current gun restrictions enough ?

[otto man]

Yep the opinion of a self-confessed right wing gun nut with a vested interest in firearms as a means of income is always a reasoned argument. Some quotes from his bio:

"shooting was about the interaction between me and the weapon. If I did what I was supposed to do, then this mechanical marvel would do what it was supposed to do. It was remarkable. It was fun. I loved guns. I still do. I’m a gun-geek."

"California was becoming increasingly odd, with wacky socialists in charge of everything"

"At some point, I realized that working in federal law enforcement was probably not a good fit for somebody with “authority” issues and complete lack of faith in the federal government."

"So I became part owner of a gun store. I was living the dream."

The mentally ill aren't the issue - guns are. But I don't know what it's going to take over and above the needless carnage that happens day after day after day in the US for your people to wake up and realise. For most nations Sandy Hook would have been it, but for some unfathomable reason you are unable to see the light. Maybe it's stubbornness, maybe it's clinging to outdated notions of a old America, but definitely there are those with a vested interest in the arms industry (and in keeping their own nests feathered - NRA?) that hold enough sway to keep you paranoid about self defence, stirred up about your archaic and outdated 2nd amendment and convinced that you should all be armed.

Are you aware a gun is a tool, just like a hammer or a screw driver? How that tool is used or in these cases misused IS the issue. You are one patronising, self opinionated Herbert, who needs to take his head out of his arse and realise that not every one shares your opinion. Stop talking with such "authority" on the subject, because you aren't expressing facts, just your opinion.

[Audax]

The MP Jo Cox is in critical condition and was shot and stabbed in Yorkshire. Hoping for a speedy recovery.

http://news.sky.com/story/1712935/labour-mp-jo-cox-shot-near-leeds-eyewitness

[Tom]

Apparently the attacker shouted 'Britain First' as he stabbed her

Edit - conflicting sources though

[RibbleValleyRover]

Awful news about Jo Cox, wishing her a speedy recovery.

[Mike Graham]

Dreadful news, and an attack on our democracy.

I pray she will recover.

[Stuart]

Guardian reporting that she has died...

And now Sky News.