[Archived] Extra ! Extra ! Read All About It !

[RibbleValleyRover]

Lovely tribute to Jo Cox from Andrew Mitchell the Conservative MP:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/my-fearless-friend-jo-cox-a-five-foot-bundle-of-yorkshire-grit/

[Stuart]

What's all this about "uniting against the hate that killed her"?

I think it's a reference to early accounts which suggested political motives. In my view, and indications are now that, this was somebody who was mentally unstable.

Although it was perhaps too soon, SKH's post is also a concern of mine. Under the current government, more and more people who should be supported and looked after in specialist care and even under supervision are being left to care for themselves in the community. This means that there are potential incidents waiting to happen anywhere.

I have family who work in the care industry and whilst they don't share the details the frequently say that there are people being allowed into the community who simply cannot cope and need support. Cost cutting and the outsourcing of care to organisations who make decisions concerning care on the basis of a need to make profits are a bad combination.

Related to the 'too soon' line, I can't believe that the media are dragging people in front of cameras already to be interviewed. The poor lady only died a few short hours ago.

[jim mk2]

What's all this about "uniting against the hate that killed her"?

Perhaps it refers to this disgraceful rightwing organisation.

http://www.britainfirst.org/racism/

An eye-witness to Jo Cox's murder claimed on BBC News tonight that the attacker said "Britain First" twice before killing her.

Click on racism tab on the above site and you can see the following quote

The only people we “hate” are the white leftwing politicians and journalists who are wrecking our beautiful country.

Jo Cox was a white leftwing politician who was campaigning for Britain to remain in the EU.

This poor lady has paid the ultimate price for the hate and bile of the campaign.

[Tom]

I think the truth will end up being a not so stable chap with links to far rights groups as reported in the telegraph:

'The Daily Telegraph reported that Mairs brother claimed Mair has a history of mental illness, and neighbors called him a loner, but he also has a long history with white nationalism.

According to records obtained by the Southern Poverty Law Center Mair was a dedicated supporter of the National Alliance (NA), the once premier neo-Nazi organization in the United States, for decades. Mair purchased a manual from the NA in 1999 that included instructions on how to build a pistol.

Mair, who resides in what is described as a semi-detached house on the Fieldhead Estate in Birstall, sent just over $620 to the NA, according to invoices for goods purchased from National Vanguard Books, the NAs printing imprint. Mair purchased subscriptions for periodicals published by the imprint and he bought works that instruct readers on the Chemistry of Powder & Explosives, Incendiaries, and a work called Improvised Munitions Handbook." Under Section III, No. 9 (page 125) of that handbook, there are detailed instructions for constructing a Pipe Pistol For .38 Caliber Ammunition from components that can be purchased from nearly any hardware store.

The Daily Telegraph also reported that Mair was a subscriber to S. A. Patriot, a South African magazine published by White Rhino Club, a pro-apartheid group. The club describes that magazines editorial stance as opposed to multi-cultural societies and expansionist Islam. According to the Daily Telegraph, a January 2006 blog post attributed to the group described Mair as one of the earliest subscribers and supporters of S. A. Patriot.'

[Audax]

Good gumshoe work Tom. I did happen to see the SPLC (Southern Poverty Law Center) webpage on this as well. Anyone can look that up too.

[Mike E]

Lying awake and still horrified by Mrs Cox's death. I got to thinking about how the EU debate may have brought this to a head, particularly when thinking about how MPs appear to view the working man.

The thing is, the more I hear the views of people I love derided as 'racist', 'ignorant', 'stupid', or 'backward' (when these people are not remotely any of those things) it makes me stick up for the Leave campaign against the mud-slinging of Remain (although both parties are equally guilty).

The general behaviour of MPs for the last 20-odd years has led to the mistrust of all politicians by many people. Sadly it came to a head today when a **** decided it was ok to murder one of the few good people left in the Commons. I reckon MPs must reflect on the atmosphere they have either created or contributed to. If they had behaved themselves and given Joe Public reason to trust and admire them, rather than create a 'them and us' scenario, I wonder if poor Jo wouldn't have been killed.

A sickening act that has left me feeling more shaken than I'd expect. Possibly coming on a day of sporting ecstacy has messed with my head?

[MarkBRFC71]

I confess I am a "right wing gun nut". I have no vested income interest in guns, however, so I am surmising that you are not referring to me.

​If you are referring to Larry Correia, I think he'd also admit to be a "right wing gun nut". As to his supposed income interest, he is a former part owner of a gun store and a former CCW instructor. Now he's a writer. You would know that if you were reading for comprehension as opposed to looking for supposed gotcha points.

​None of which undermines his arguments. He's dead on.

This horrific data indicates he and you couldn't be more wrong sadly. There is an obvious correlation between the number of guns, the lack of gun control and the number of mass shootings - can't you see this?

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/oct/02/mass-shootings-america-gun-violence

[Paul]

This horrific data indicates he and you couldn't be more wrong sadly. There is an obvious correlation between the number of guns, the lack of gun control and the number of mass shootings - can't you see this?

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/oct/02/mass-shootings-america-gun-violence

I'd wondered where you had found the 1200 shootings in 1000 days information. It seemed an astonishing claim to make.

I think the stark reality is those who oppose gun control view gun ownership a higher priority than protecting human life while at the same time arguing gun ownership saves lives. No logic in this at all.

Is there any data to illustrate gun ownership saves lives? That is where citizens in poses session of a weapon have stopped criminals from killing others?

[Paul]

Although it was perhaps too soon, SKH's post is also a concern of mine. Under the current government, more and more people who should be supported and looked after in specialist care and even under supervision are being left to care for themselves in the community. This means that there are potential incidents waiting to happen anywhere.

I have family who work in the care industry and whilst they don't share the details the frequently say that there are people being allowed into the community who simply cannot cope and need support. Cost cutting and the outsourcing of care to organisations who make decisions concerning care on the basis of a need to make profits are a bad combination.

While it is far too early to understand the motives behind Jo Cox's murder the above is true on so many levels.

I'm not trying to point score politically but it is an unavoidable fact that under the Blair government the country made real progress in funding and implementing care for vulnerable people. This includes not just those Stuart describes above but every type of vulnerability one could encounter.

Individuals received care packages allowing the purchase of care specific to their needs. Suddenly the vulnerable had real choices and the money to fund their choice. The progress was very significant.

Today we have a situation in which the vulnerable were the first to suffer in the austerity cuts. One result is described by Stuart but their are too many other examples.

We now have the ludicrous situation of government providing the vulnerable with a care package, real funds, to address their individual needs. These people also receive state benefits such as Disability Living Allowance. From these state benefits people are then required to repay up to 85% of their disposable income to fund their care.

Giving with one hand and taking away with the other.

This has always been a time bomb it remains to be seen if this awful attack is a first result.

[MarkBRFC71]

I'd wondered where you had found the 1200 shootings in 1000 days information. It seemed an astonishing claim to make.

I think the stark reality is those who oppose gun control view gun ownership a higher priority than protecting human life while at the same time arguing gun ownership saves lives. No logic in this at all.

Is there any data to illustrate gun ownership saves lives? That is where citizens in poses session of a weapon have stopped criminals from killing others?

And that's only mass shootings, where 4 or more people are killed or injured. God knows what the numbers would be if you included every single gun incident.

According to the FBI, 1 in 32 gun deaths is classed as justifiable homicide, ie someone shooting a 'bad guy' in self defence. This is a good read: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/10/oregon-shooting-gun-laws-213222

Some good statistical analysis - the video at the bottom sums it up nicely if you don't want to read it all! http://www.vox.com/2015/8/24/9183525/gun-violence-statistics

[Mike Graham]

While it is far too early to understand the motives behind Jo Cox's murder the above is true on so many levels.

I'm not trying to point score politically but it is an unavoidable fact that under the Blair government the country made real progress in funding and implementing care for vulnerable people. This includes not just those Stuart describes above but every type of vulnerability one could encounter.

Individuals received care packages allowing the purchase of care specific to their needs. Suddenly the vulnerable had real choices and the money to fund their choice. The progress was very significant.

Today we have a situation in which the vulnerable were the first to suffer in the austerity cuts. One result is described by Stuart but their are too many other examples.

We now have the ludicrous situation of government providing the vulnerable with a care package, real funds, to address their individual needs. These people also receive state benefits such as Disability Living Allowance. From these state benefits people are then required to repay up to 85% of their disposable income to fund their care.

Giving with one hand and taking away with the other.

This has always been a time bomb it remains to be seen if this awful attack is a first result.

Mental health has always been a bit of a taboo subject in this country with mental health support services being much under resourced.

People can live with, and manage, mental health - however the whole subject needs a far greater understanding and an acceptance that individuals with mental health challenges have much to contribute in society.

Via work I am working with others to help expose employers and employees to better understand mental health in the workplace. It is a revelation to many when they see how difficult it is for those suffering mental health to be accepted, to have a job and live a 'normal' life.

I hope one of the positive outcomes of the dreadful death of Jo Cox (and there will be positives from these dark times) is that people think twice about hating and opposing and actually trying a bit more love, acceptance and understanding. I hope that such an attitude change is not too difficult.....is it?

[Tom]

There's a picture going round that purports to show Mair at a Britain First rally, not convinced it's him myself though.

Nazi regalia found in his house though also reported

[RibbleValleyRover]

Thomas Mair gave his name as "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" when he appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36567005

His comments are only going to politicize the murder even more

[Mike E]

As a politically motivated killing, should he be facing terrorism charges too? Or is he too white for that?

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

As a politically motivated killing, should he be facing terrorism charges too? Or is he too white for that?

Can't be bothered finding the British one (Google doesn't show it straight away so too much effort haha) but the US definition is:

The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives"

So on that basis yes he should. However on that basis so should anyone involved in violence in any political rally. So plenty of the anti-Capitalist guy fawkes mask gang would be up for it too, not to mention quite a few people in the tuition fee protests.

[Mike E]

Can't be bothered finding the British one (Google doesn't show it straight away so too much effort haha) but the US definition is:

The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives"

So on that basis yes he should. However on that basis so should anyone involved in violence in any political rally. So plenty of the anti-Capitalist guy fawkes mask gang would be up for it too, not to mention quite a few people in the tuition fee protests.

And quite rightly.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

And quite rightly.

Although so would the miners have been and possible a few of the sufferagettes.

I do agree with you though. It should always be possible to protest without violence in a democracy. If your non-violent protest isn't working, can use your vote or in some cases (like Rovers fans with Venkys) your spending power.

[Audax]

As a politically motivated killing, should he be facing terrorism charges too? Or is he too white for that?

At least, it doesn't appear the press will be hiding his sympathies; maybe that is some consolation.

[Stuart]

As a politically motivated killing, should he be facing terrorism charges too? Or is he too white for that?

Do you have a monopoly on allowable revolting posts? If somebody posted 'Muslim' instead of 'white' in response to an opposing but equivalent incident you (and Obi Wan) would be playing merry hell, hiding posts and banning folk.

If more people referred to these scumbags (of all nationalities and faiths) as murderers or nutjobs INSTEAD of the "terrorists" then we might have fewer divisions.

It's PC-madness to give everything labels so that they can be grouped and people can cry racist or sexist or whatever-ist when things aren't 'even'.

[Mike E]

What's 'revolting' about a white man saying a politically motivated murder by a white man of a white woman should be treated exactly the same way as Lee Rigby's black killers?

I also don't think there's anything 'revolting' about being cynical due to the very popular (but spectacularly wrong) perception that only Muslims are terrorists.

[yoda]

What's 'revolting' about a white man saying a politically motivated murder by a white man of a white woman should be treated exactly the same way as Lee Rigby's black killers?

I also don't think there's anything 'revolting' about being cynical due to the very popular (but spectacularly wrong) perception that only Muslims are terrorists.

Can this post be included in the forum guidlines

[Stuart]

What's 'revolting' about a white man saying a politically motivated murder by a white man of a white woman should be treated exactly the same way as Lee Rigby's black killers?

I also don't think there's anything 'revolting' about being cynical due to the very popular (but spectacularly wrong) perception that only Muslims are terrorists.

Lee Rigby's murderers were nutjobs.

Simple.

[perthblue02]

Post moved to Gun Law debate thread

[T J Hooker]

Just me or would anybody else like to just punch this Tim Peake in the gut?

They went to all that expense to throw Major gingernads to earth from space, which clown snuck him a parachute, I thought it was an international experiment to find the most satisfying way to dispose of gingers.

[Stuart]

It's just you.