[Archived] Extra ! Extra ! Read All About It !

[joey_big_nose]

I'm not saying being Muslim is a crime, I'm talking about the concept of tackling widespread problems by identifying their patterns.

My example had nothing to do with Muslims, it's simply an example of that concept. Police use violent crime statistics of areas around the country to direct where their resources should be employed in carrying out stop and searches. That's one example of tackling a widespread problem by identifying a pattern within it. Such an approach always involves stereotyping, in that case the stereotype is if you live in Tower Hamlets or Lambeth or Moss Side etc you're more likely to carry a weapon. The same stereotyping is applied to schools put into special measures, not every pupil or teacher in that school warrants such intervention. Not everyone above a certain age needs a free bus pass, not every footballer needs an abuse helpline, not every American gun owner will ever accidentally shoot a family member.

My point is people generalise all the time, governments generalise all the time. You can't treat tens of millions of people on a comprehensive and total individual basis, it's logistically impossible. So trends are identified, generalisations are made, and policy ideas formed. In a positive sense as much (well, probably more) as in a negative sense.

As I said, how many posters in the USA guns thread on here quoted stats about accidental family shootings as a reason to take all guns away? Using a generalisation, backed by evidence, to direct a policy. And yet it's racist to quote stats about the religion of terrorists to formulate policies towards dealing with radical Islam?

I don't have any issue with anything you have said here, indeed what you have described here is actually how the police and security services investigate all forms of extremism.

Perhaps I misunderstood your previous posts, but what I took away from them was that Muslims should be treated with a greater level of suspicion than non Muslims which I think is a fundamentally wrong and unjust position.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I don't have any issue with anything you have said here, indeed what you have described here is actually how the police and security services investigate all forms of extremism.

Perhaps I misunderstood your previous posts, but what I took away from them was that Muslims should be treated with a greater level of suspicion than non Muslims which I think is a fundamentally wrong and unjust position.

Well I find it a very tough one personally. Islam accounts for 23% of the world's people and yet the four locations of conflict that caused more than 10,000 deaths each last year were Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq and Nigeria. Or, more specifically, Al Qaeda, IS and Boko Haram. And of the 12 conflicts that killed more than 1,000, 9 involved Islam.

So pattern number one is Islam is currently far, far more violent than any of the other world religions or non-religions. Thats the point where I tend to start arguing with a lot of people because, despite the facts being there in black and white, an enormous number of people even refuse to accept that statement.

Now nobody wants to just have a pattern of what religion people follow to go off if they can help it. So what other patterns are there that link Islamic terrorists, in say America for example? Some are men, some female, some educated, some not, some devout, some openly not. And this is the problem, this is why Trump wanted an immigration ban, to some, apart from the religion there are no patterns.

I mean they all answered the call of IS is a possible pattern but what's the answer to that, leave IS alone, let them carry out their religious cleansing of the middle east and hope they never get round to us? Maybe education is the answer, soften Islam by teaching kids western values young. Will that be enough? I fear not when you've more and more Islamic private schools springing up in this country especially, as an absolute minimum a far more robust attitude must be taken regarding allowing those if you ask me.

[joey_big_nose]

Well I find it a very tough one personally. Islam accounts for 23% of the world's people and yet the four locations of conflict that caused more than 10,000 deaths each last year were Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq and Nigeria. Or, more specifically, Al Qaeda, IS and Boko Haram. And of the 12 conflicts that killed more than 1,000, 9 involved Islam.

So pattern number one is Islam is currently far, far more violent than any of the other world religions or non-religions. Thats the point where I tend to start arguing with a lot of people because, despite the facts being there in black and white, an enormous number of people even refuse to accept that statement.

Now nobody wants to just have a pattern of what religion people follow to go off if they can help it. So what other patterns are there that link Islamic terrorists, in say America for example? Some are men, some female, some educated, some not, some devout, some openly not. And this is the problem, this is why Trump wanted an immigration ban, to some, apart from the religion there are no patterns.

I mean they all answered the call of IS is a possible pattern but what's the answer to that, leave IS alone, let them carry out their religious cleansing of the middle east and hope they never get round to us? Maybe education is the answer, soften Islam by teaching kids western values young. Will that be enough? I fear not when you've more and more Islamic private schools springing up in this country especially, as an absolute minimum a far more robust attitude must be taken regarding allowing those if you ask me.

By any analysis you are on extremely rocky ground if you are extrapolating from four war torn areas of the globe pre-judicial policy for a populations of hundreds of millions. You are being coy about here, but I think what you are getting at is either teaching Islam should be banned, or re-education is some form is neccessary.

Any policy like that which targets a faith or ethnic group is fundamentally unsupportable by democratic and judicial values. You can't do it, as if one group is targeted then it opens up all to targeting.

The justice system, human rights, the principals of evidence and causation, "Political correctness" and "bleeding heart liberalism" have not appeared out of thin air. They are mechanisms evolved over hundreds of years to manage humanity's excellent ability to marginalise, persecute and ultimately murder people different to themselves.

[jim mk2]

Substitute Jews or Jewish instead of Islam in the above and hey presto, we're back in the fascist world of the 1930s.

It is to our eternal shame that over the years many immigrants and foreigners have been subject to hatred by mainstream society because they were deemed to be threats to British identity. At times, these despised peoples have included Catholics, Jews, French and Germans. Gays were regarded as an affront to decency until the 1980s, blacks until the 1970s, and Jews for centuries. Now this outcast role has fallen to Muslims.

I feel sorry for victimised ordinary Muslim families who are virtually a silenced minority and have to put up with the above on a daily basis in the media, in our politics, and on our streets.

[Steve Moss]

Substitute Jews or Jewish instead of Islam in the above and hey presto, we're back in the fascist world of the 1930s.

Last I checked the Jews of the 1930s were not throwing gays off of rooftops for the crime of being gay.

Patriotic, peaceable and productive Muslims are fine.

Islamists are not fine and should be left rot in whatever hellhole they come from.

Jihadis should be lined up against the wall and shot.

[Audax]

That's one heckuva deal that they say the plane that crashed carrying the Chapacoense football team ran out of fuel. Horrible. My deepest condolences.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

By an analysis you are on extremely rocky ground if you are extrapolating from four war torn areas of the globe pre-judicial policy for a populations of hundreds of millions. You are being coy about here, but I think what you are getting at is either teaching Islam should be banned, or re-education is some form is neccessary.

Any policy like that which targets a faith or ethnic group is fundamentally unsupportable by democratic and judicial values. You can't do it, as if one group is targeted then it opens up all to targeting.

The justice system, human rights, the principals of evidence and causation, "Political correctness" and "bleeding heart liberalism" have not appeared out of thin air. They are mechanisms evolved over hundreds of years to manage humanity's excellent ability to marginalise, persecute and ultimately murder people different to themselves.

I don't understand why you see no connection. Those 4 areas aren't war torn by chance. Afghanistan as a country practically state-sponsored the 9/11 attack, such was their commitment to extremism. Iraq/Syria is long-term the result of the hyper-brutal conflict between Sunni and Shia facets of Islam, and shorter term a sort of sick experiment for rich Sunnis in countries such as Saudi Arabia and Turkey who've funded the successful genocide of Christians and Yazidis in the middle east. Nigeria had finally achieved democracy and was starting to grow it's economy when Boko Haram decided to start slaughtering Christians throughout the north of the country. These aren't areas of conflict on the planet through some organic process out of anyone's control.

Then you've got Turkey's Islamist regime persecuting the Kurds, Al-Shabab trying to take control of Somalia, the Sudanese government's ethnic cleansing of Christians in Darfur, Islamic terrorists occupying parts of north-west Pakistan, IS supporters trying to seize Libyan, Saudi Arabia bombing the hell out of Houthis in Yemen, terrorists running amok in the Sinai area of Egypt. I could go on all day, there are about 150-200 active Islamic terrorist organisations in the world today.

This is very much connected to lone-wolf and other domestic attacks carried out in countries throughout the west. As I say the religion is currently synonymous with violence throughout the globe and in the last few years has sharply reversed the trend of global deaths through conflict rapidly declining since the mid 80s.

So I'm not being coy, there is clearly a problem with how Islam is interpreted by far too many Muslims. Clearly. And it might be a hugely awkward one for the liberal west to come to terms with that but the facts are there in abundance for those who dare to look. What's to be done about it is another matter but yes, as a minimum some impact on Islamic education is necessary, even if it's just to ban all teachers from mosques and schools that don't encourage the moderate version.

[Al]

The Mirror then (unbelievably) was a sister paper of the Daily Mail and the author of that fascist support was none other than Harold Harmsworth, the first Lord Rothermere, great grandfather of the current tax-dodging billionaire Daily Mail proprietor. Rothermere's appalling right wing stance badly hit the paper's sales.

Come on Jim. The Mirror always has been a left wing rag only worth reading for Andy Capp and the Perishers.

[Al]

Substitute Jews or Jewish instead of Islam in the above and hey presto, we're back in the fascist world of the 1930s.

It is to our eternal shame that over the years many immigrants and foreigners have been subject to hatred by mainstream society because they were deemed to be threats to British identity. At times, these despised peoples have included Catholics, Jews, French and Germans. Gays were regarded as an affront to decency until the 1980s, blacks until the 1970s, and Jews for centuries. Now this outcast role has fallen to Muslims.

I feel sorry for victimised ordinary Muslim families who are virtually a silenced minority and have to put up with the above on a daily basis in the media, in our politics, and on our streets.

Muslims are rarely silent. That is part of the problem. None of the people you mentioned were as militant as the Muslims.

[onlyonetugay]

I don't understand why you see no connection. Those 4 areas aren't war torn by chance. Afghanistan as a country practically state-sponsored the 9/11 attack, such was their commitment to extremism. Iraq/Syria is long-term the result of the hyper-brutal conflict between Sunni and Shia facets of Islam, and shorter term a sort of sick experiment for rich Sunnis in countries such as Saudi Arabia and Turkey who've funded the successful genocide of Christians and Yazidis in the middle east. Nigeria had finally achieved democracy and was starting to grow it's economy when Boko Haram decided to start slaughtering Christians throughout the north of the country. These aren't areas of conflict on the planet through some organic process out of anyone's control.

Then you've got Turkey's Islamist regime persecuting the Kurds, Al-Shabab trying to take control of Somalia, the Sudanese government's ethnic cleansing of Christians in Darfur, Islamic terrorists occupying parts of north-west Pakistan, IS supporters trying to seize Libyan, Saudi Arabia bombing the hell out of Houthis in Yemen, terrorists running amok in the Sinai area of Egypt. I could go on all day, there are about 150-200 active Islamic terrorist organisations in the world today.

This is very much connected to lone-wolf and other domestic attacks carried out in countries throughout the west. As I say the religion is currently synonymous with violence throughout the globe and in the last few years has sharply reversed the trend of global deaths through conflict rapidly declining since the mid 80s.

So I'm not being coy, there is clearly a problem with how Islam is interpreted by far too many Muslims. Clearly. And it might be a hugely awkward one for the liberal west to come to terms with that but the facts are there in abundance for those who dare to look. What's to be done about it is another matter but yes, as a minimum some impact on Islamic education is necessary, even if it's just to ban all teachers from mosques and schools that don't encourage the moderate version.

If the liberal west doesn't come to terms with it anytime soon then the west won't be liberal. A lot of commentators on here give their " cuddly " views of Islam from their enclaves in the Ribble Valley , Chorley , Baxenden , Leyland , York , London ( probably not Tower Hamlets or Newham !! ) South Korea etc etc. I live and work in Blackburn and drove up Preston New Road yesterday lunchtime from the centre and saw a total of 6 women, all of of South Asian Heritage. Four were in niqabs and one was in a Burka ( I'm assuming the one in the Burka was of south asian heritage - the children she was with were ) . The number of fully covered women in Blackburn has increased frighteningly over the past few years. I'm looking to move out and I'd gladly give a 20% discount to any of the Leftie Liberals on here that want to leave their ivory towers and move into the "diverse" Islamic melting pot that is Blackburn .

[jim mk2]

Come on Jim. The Mirror always has been a left wing rag only worth reading for Andy Capp and the Perishers.

Do some research.

[Paul]

I didn't believe this was truly being reported by the Daily Express on its website so had a look for myself:

Putin developing 14 tentacled killer octopus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/735175/vladimir-putin-killer-octopus-organism-46-b-russian-army-secret-weapon-russia

Does this publication still describe itself as a newspaper? The worry is this is where some people get their news and views.

[Amo]

Last I checked the Jews of the 1930s were not throwing gays off of rooftops for the crime of being gay.

What about the Jewish Bolshevists who tortured and murdered tens of thousands during the Red Terror?

[joey_big_nose]

If the liberal west doesn't come to terms with it anytime soon then the west won't be liberal. A lot of commentators on here give their " cuddly " views of Islam from their enclaves in the Ribble Valley , Chorley , Baxenden , Leyland , York , London ( probably not Tower Hamlets or Newham !! ) South Korea etc etc. I live and work in Blackburn and drove up Preston New Road yesterday lunchtime from the centre and saw a total of 6 women, all of of South Asian Heritage. Four were in niqabs and one was in a Burka ( I'm assuming the one in the Burka was of south asian heritage - the children she was with were ) . The number of fully covered women in Blackburn has increased frighteningly over the past few years. I'm looking to move out and I'd gladly give a 20% discount to any of the Leftie Liberals on here that want to leave their ivory towers and move into the "diverse" Islamic melting pot that is Blackburn .

I find it odd that so many think we should suspend our justice and rights system in the face radical islam. It managed to survive WWI, WWII, the Irish troubles and the Cold War. It's seems a bit lilly livered to crumble in the face of what has to date amounted to one serious bombing attack in London and a number of other relatively minor incidents.

[yoda]

I find it odd that so many think we should suspend our justice and rights system in the face radical islam. It managed to survive WWI, WWII, the Irish troubles and the Cold War. It's seems a bit lilly livered to crumble in the face of what has to date amounted to one serious bombing attack in London and a number of other relatively minor incidents.

I don't think have your head hacked off in the street is a minor incident

[Dreyski]

If the liberal west doesn't come to terms with it anytime soon then the west won't be liberal. A lot of commentators on here give their " cuddly " views of Islam from their enclaves in the Ribble Valley , Chorley , Baxenden , Leyland , York , London ( probably not Tower Hamlets or Newham !! ) South Korea etc etc. ... I'm looking to move out and I'd gladly give a 20% discount to any of the Leftie Liberals on here that want to leave their ivory towers and move into the "diverse" Islamic melting pot that is Blackburn .

Dangerous to assume. You're looking to move out? I was years ahead of you pal.

[Baz]

If the liberal west doesn't come to terms with it anytime soon then the west won't be liberal. A lot of commentators on here give their " cuddly " views of Islam from their enclaves in the Ribble Valley , Chorley , Baxenden , Leyland , York , London ( probably not Tower Hamlets or Newham !! ) South Korea etc etc. I live and work in Blackburn and drove up Preston New Road yesterday lunchtime from the centre and saw a total of 6 women, all of of South Asian Heritage. Four were in niqabs and one was in a Burka ( I'm assuming the one in the Burka was of south asian heritage - the children she was with were ) . The number of fully covered women in Blackburn has increased frighteningly over the past few years. I'm looking to move out and I'd gladly give a 20% discount to any of the Leftie Liberals on here that want to leave their ivory towers and move into the "diverse" Islamic melting pot that is Blackburn .

Did they attack you?

I don't see why the number of covered women is frightening, (albeit from my enclave )

[adopted scouser]

Did they attack you?

I don't see why the number of covered women is frightening, (albeit from my enclave )

Nor frightening, just annoying and totally unnecessary. In 2016 women required to cover themselves head to toe in black even with a mesh over the eyes ? Walking around Asda bumping into things as they can't see where they are going (and all in aid of their insecure pathetic husbands), laughable.

I've said it before, our hope lies with the growing number of Asian girls with the iPhone, big handbag in the crook of the arm and (the prophet forbid) uncovered.

[Baz]

Nor frightening, just annoying and totally unnecessary. In 2016 women required to cover themselves head to toe in black even with a mesh over the eyes ? Walking around Asda bumping into things as they can't see where they are going (and all in aid of their insecure pathetic husbands), laughable.

I've said it before, our hope lies with the growing number of Asian girls with the iPhone, big handbag in the crook of the arm and (the prophet forbid) uncovered.

Dont disagree with that if they are required, for some though it is a choice (ive managed a few different girls who made the choice, including one and her sister, one fully covered the other just the hair).

The frightening bit was because it was in the qouted post.

[Audax]

Also ISIS recruits, UK has sent a number, 600 estimated as of June of 2015 to enroll into a terrorist army meaning they are terrorists for doing that.

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/06/02/here-are-the-countries-where-isis-recruits-come-from/21189692/

[onlyonetugay]

Dangerous to assume. You're looking to move out? I was years ahead of you pal.

Yes I'm looking to move out. You moved out years ago. Duly noted "pal"

[joey_big_nose]

I don't think have your head hacked off in the street is a minor incident

It is statistically. Many more people are killed in car crashes, or during the IRAs bombing campaign.

[Husky]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38179653

No doubt the 'loony left' will be organising LET THEM BACK IN marches.

[ABBEY]

It is statistically. Many more people are killed in car crashes, or during the IRAs bombing campaign.

How many planes did the IRA fly into buildings ?

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Did they attack you?

I don't see why the number of covered women is frightening, (albeit from my enclave )

Wouldn't say frightening but I'd say it's unnerving for 2 reasons:

1. The Niqab is an example of hardline Islam. When women are wearing that rather than say a Hijab, its because they (or more likely their husbands) have chosen to suscribe to a more severe, less tolerant interpretation of Islam. I posted at length on a previous page about the hundreds of thousands of people a year globally who are dyeing due to intolerant interpretations of Islam. Is it not a worrying thing to see a rise in Niqabs and a fall in Hijabs on Blackburn's streets?

2. The grooming and abuse of white girls by Asian gangs across northern towns in particular was in part due to the total lack of respect or consideration that these girls had any worth, which was in part driven by how they dressed. If more and more women in towns like Blackburn are walking around in a black baggy full body sheet with a small eye hole, will that not lead to further discrimination against say a woman who's wearing heels, a thigh high skirt and a tight top? You'd be a very brave woman to walk around like that in some areas of Blackburn these days, which is a depressing notion in a 21st century western society. It's not an issue i can see the feminists rushing to tackle though, that's for sure.