[Archived] Extra ! Extra ! Read All About It !

[ABBEY]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/british-jihadists-captured-battle-mosul-9392214

let them swing hopefully after the iraqis torture them .

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/isis-planning-dirty-bomb-drone-9391172

[yoda]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/british-jihadists-captured-battle-mosul-9392214

let them swing hopefully after the iraqis torture them .

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/isis-planning-dirty-bomb-drone-9391172

If they are now drone pilots they may be receptive to a cup of tea, what do you think ABBEY ?

[ABBEY]

some on here would make them a cuppa for sure.

[yoda]

some on here would make them a cuppa for sure.

There can't be many virgins left for them

[Husky]

What's with all the arses up in the air and facing the same way, is the Imam on his rounds ?

'Free speech? Kiss my ass!'

some on here would make them a cuppa for sure.

Plenty of cuppas going in loonland.

The left is finished partly because they are seen to be in cahoots with radical Islam.

Trash like Unite Against Fascism are little more than violent fascist organisations and as in the USA the true British people have had enough.

[Al]

You write and pass a law which allows you to try people who break it, which is exactly what has happened with inciting hatred and violence legislation.

The main issue around hate preachers is deportation is difficult as they are usually either under violent threat wherever you could feasibly deport them to or the country won't take them.

Put them on a plane and refuse to allow them back. They can worry about who will have them.

[Husky]

Put them on a plane and refuse to allow them back. They can worry about who will have them.

The death penalty might be a good idea - Taliban style.

Prison life seems little more than an extremist holiday camp in most cases. Plus they believe that the 'next life' is more important so don't much care what happens in this one - very dangerous.

[Dreyski]

I'm with Billy Connolly on this.

(To paraphrase) "72 virgins isn't a reward - it's a punishment!"

[yoda]

I'm with Billy Connolly on this.

(To paraphrase) "72 virgins isn't a reward - it's a punishment!"

The rest of that gig is spot on as well

[Husky]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/05/man-jailed-for-attack-boy-embrace-london-michael-coe-anjem-choudary

Another of the peace lovers allegedly radicalised in prison is going back for a holiday on the tax payer.

The death penalty really is the only way to clean up the filthy streets.

[joey_big_nose]

So many on here are so offended by militant islam's barbarity they wish to replicate it. I imagine the irony is lost.

[wolfie]

So many on here are so offended by militant islam's barbarity they wish to replicate it. I imagine the irony is lost.

And completely missing the barbarity of the western governments. It's a bit cringe worthy really.

[Audax]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38216635

What idiots shoot others over "road rage" incidences, no justice in this and it almost makes one afraid to venture out.

A former NFLer was shot and killed.

[Audax]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-38218232

This woman, Jayalitha passed away, seemed to be an important politician in India, former actress.

[Steve Moss]

Animals. We have enough in the way of domestic animals. Why do we insist on importing more?

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_SWEDEN_SEXUAL_ASSAULT?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2016-12-06-11-32-31

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

And completely missing the barbarity of the western governments. It's a bit cringe worthy really.

It's easy to miss assertions you think are complete nonsense.

[Mike E]

It's easy to miss assertions you think are complete nonsense.

In fairness, our own Western Government appears to be having some sort of 'legal cull' of disabled people:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/blind-man-benefits-axed-after-9380033

Or indeed anyone on the dole:

http://metro.co.uk/2016/12/07/teenager-killed-himself-after-being-belittled-by-jobcentre-staff-6306223?ito=facebook

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

In fairness, our own Western Government appears to be having some sort of 'legal cull' of disabled people:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/blind-man-benefits-axed-after-9380033

Or indeed anyone on the dole:

http://metro.co.uk/2016/12/07/teenager-killed-himself-after-being-belittled-by-jobcentre-staff-6306223?ito=facebook

Couldn't open that first link but I agree the second link is very tragic and I really feel for what the lad went through and what his family are left with. The whole benefits system is a very tough issue.

I firmly believe in fairness. There are millions of people in the country slogging their guts out every week for below the living wage who must feel severe hopelessness at times and in my opinion as little as possible of their wage should be going to people who could work but don't want to. On the other hand, many people who don't work are extremely vulnerable people and need to be approached with an air of gentle if persistent encouragement, not hostility and disdain. The DWP's white-washing of that whole incident is a disgrace, they should look at the figures relating to suicide and depression of those on benefits and re-train staff at every job centre in the country to better treat them.

However my response was to a claimed similarity by wolfie between militant Islam and western governments, which I reject 100%. Militant Islam in the last 5 years has been responsible for some of the worst crimes in human history: religious genocide, ethnic cleansing, child slavery, mass rape as a weapon, chemical warfare, common use of civilians as both targets and human shields. To compare western governments to them is ridiculous bordering on insane and is symptomatic of the lazy left-wing fad for slating our own countries. Look at the high morality with which we wage war even compared to Russia who think nothing of reducing aid convoys to rubble. On balance we should be grateful to have grown up in a world with western governments as the dominant force.

[Audax]

Gordon, thenodrog was/is an excellent poster and friendly too, we exchanged some emails. I forget which thread it was but it would be nice to see him come back. Enjoyed the posts.

[yoda]

Gordon, thenodrog was/is an excellent poster and friendly too, we exchanged some emails. I forget which thread it was but it would be nice to see him come back. Enjoyed the posts.

Just been talking to him in person, very little chance of posting again, got out of the habit

[Baz]

Couldn't open that first link but I agree the second link is very tragic and I really feel for what the lad went through and what his family are left with. The whole benefits system is a very tough issue.

I firmly believe in fairness. There are millions of people in the country slogging their guts out every week for below the living wage who must feel severe hopelessness at times and in my opinion as little as possible of their wage should be going to people who could work but don't want to. On the other hand, many people who don't work are extremely vulnerable people and need to be approached with an air of gentle if persistent encouragement, not hostility and disdain. The DWP's white-washing of that whole incident is a disgrace, they should look at the figures relating to suicide and depression of those on benefits and re-train staff at every job centre in the country to better treat them.

However my response was to a claimed similarity by wolfie between militant Islam and western governments, which I reject 100%. Militant Islam in the last 5 years has been responsible for some of the worst crimes in human history: religious genocide, ethnic cleansing, child slavery, mass rape as a weapon, chemical warfare, common use of civilians as both targets and human shields. To compare western governments to them is ridiculous bordering on insane and is symptomatic of the lazy left-wing fad for slating our own countries. Look at the high morality with which we wage war even compared to Russia who think nothing of reducing aid convoys to rubble. On balance we should be grateful to have grown up in a world with western governments as the dominant force.

Out of interest, what % of every pound in tax goes to people who could work, but choose not to? And what affect does the repeated media coverage, and re-assesment of peoples genuine illness have on their health, and mental status?

I'd imagine it is an amazingly small amount of benefit to the tax payer. Not that Im justifying it - benefit fraud is wrong, but I wonder how that would contrast with the likes of 'Sir' Phillip Green (and his extremely hard working wife's) tax avoidance and profiteering at the expense of tens of thousands of his own employees?

[Husky]

I'd imagine it is an amazingly small amount of benefit to the tax payer. Not that Im justifying it - benefit fraud is wrong, but I wonder how that would contrast with the likes of 'Sir' Phillip Green (and his extremely hard working wife's) tax avoidance and profiteering at the expense of tens of thousands of his own employees?

I guess 'scrounging scumbags' etc. make for better headlines. Though I remember reading that 'benefits fraud' was a drop in the ocean in comparison to tax avoidance by rich companies.

[Paul]

I guess 'scrounging scumbags' etc. make for better headlines. Though I remember reading that 'benefits fraud' was a drop in the ocean in comparison to tax avoidance by rich companies.

This discussion has taken place on here before and you are correct benefit fraud is a drop in the ocean and one on which there is a disproportionate focus.

In the year 2014/15 DWP figures show overpayments in the system due to BOTH fraud and error (by the DWP) at £3 billion. This is 1.8% of the total benefits bill. The same report shows underpayment of 0.9%, £1.5 billion, due to fraud and error. The net cost is therefore £1.5 billion.

HMRC have reported a "tax gap" for the same period of £36 billion. The figure includes estimates for losses caused by tax evasion, avoidance, the hidden economy, errors and other non-payments.

At the very worst benefit fraud accounts for 10 times less than a variety of forms of unpaid tax. It is probably 20 times less.

It's also reported the DWP employs 3600 people to tackle benefit fraud while HMRC employs 700 to collect unpaid tax. If 3600 people are needed to tackle a maximum of £3 billion in benefit fraud logic would suggest 36000 people are needed by HMRC!! (I know I'm over egging it). More logically HMRC should have a budget 10 times larger than the DWP to tackle these issues. This would give HMRC the opportunity to employ people at a similar level to those responsible for the tax gap.

An IPSOS Mori poll in 2013 showed the public perception of benefit fraud is around 25%, with those surveyed believing £24 in every £100 is fraudulently claimed when the official estimate is £0.70 (70 pence) per £100. The public perception is Approximately 30 times the real figure.

One has to wonder where this spectacular misunderstanding of the issues originates from and why successive governments fail to correct the perception and more importantly fail to do anything about it other than target those who are 5-10% of the problem. I would not like to judge but I've a damn good idea what the truth is.

As you say, and this is true of other issues society faces, "scrounging scumbags" makes much better headlines than "tax dodging scumbags".

People see what they want to see and not the reality.

[joey_big_nose]

This discussion has taken place on here before and you are correct benefit fraud is a drop in the ocean and one on which there is a disproportionate focus.

In the year 2014/15 DWP figures show overpayments in the system due to BOTH fraud and error (by the DWP) at £3 billion. This is 1.8% of the total benefits bill. The same report shows underpayment of 0.9%, £1.5 billion, due to fraud and error. The net cost is therefore £1.5 billion.

HMRC have reported a "tax gap" for the same period of £36 billion. The figure includes estimates for losses caused by tax evasion, avoidance, the hidden economy, errors and other non-payments.

At the very worst benefit fraud accounts for 10 times less than a variety of forms of unpaid tax. It is probably 20 times less.

It's also reported the DWP employs 3600 people to tackle benefit fraud while HMRC employs 700 to collect unpaid tax. If 3600 people are needed to tackle a maximum of £3 billion in benefit fraud logic would suggest 36000 people are needed by HMRC!! (I know I'm over egging it). More logically HMRC should have a budget 10 times larger than the DWP to tackle these issues. This would give HMRC the opportunity to employ people at a similar level to those responsible for the tax gap.

An IPSOS Mori poll in 2013 showed the public perception of benefit fraud is around 25%, with those surveyed believing £24 in every £100 is fraudulently claimed when the official estimate is £0.70 (70 pence) per £100. The public perception is Approximately 30 times the real figure.

One has to wonder where this spectacular misunderstanding of the issues originates from and why successive governments fail to correct the perception and more importantly fail to do anything about it other than target those who are 5-10% of the problem. I would not like to judge but I've a damn good idea what the truth is.

As you say, and this is true of other issues society faces, "scrounging scumbags" makes much better headlines than "tax dodging scumbags".

People see what they want to see and not the reality.

What a great post with actual facts and analysis.

Could we have more of these please from all posters? Too much on here is unsubstantiated opinion and sentiment, and we are learning less as a result.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

In the year 2014/15 DWP figures show overpayments in the system due to BOTH fraud and error (by the DWP) at £3 billion. This is 1.8% of the total benefits bill. The same report shows underpayment of 0.9%, £1.5 billion, due to fraud and error. The net cost is therefore £1.5 billion.

HMRC have reported a "tax gap" for the same period of £36 billion. The figure includes estimates for losses caused by tax evasion, avoidance, the hidden economy, errors and other non-payments.

At the very worst benefit fraud accounts for 10 times less than a variety of forms of unpaid tax. It is probably 20 times less.

You can’t subtract error from the benefit fraud cost but add it to the tax evasion/avoidance cost. The hidden economy is also something I would class within the benefit fraud problem, cash in hand part-time jobs whilst claiming benefits is a fairly common practice. The other sketchy bit of the argument is whether tax avoidance should be illegal. If we’re just talking the solid ground of tax evasion, in the period you mentioned that cost the government £16 billion, and as you say benefit fraud cost £3 billion. So I still agree with you as to which is the bigger problem but I think there are quite a few misleading exaggerations on the ratio on this subject.