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[Jock]

My mistake-. The Arab- Jew conflict doesn't exist. That's good, we don't have to worry about it then.

Where did I say it doesn't exist?

[Mike E]

Where did I say it doesn't exist?

There

[Audax]

My friend just said France has now started bombing on ISIS in Syria... and Iraq too? Best of luck to them.

https://news.vice.com/article/paris-attacks-live-updates-2

[yoda]

My mistake-. The Arab- Jew conflict doesn't exist. That's good, we don't have to worry about it then.

There

Shallow by both of you, the point is very valid, ignore it at your peril

[Baz]

Shallow by both of you, the point is very valid, ignore it at your peril

Evil Yodas gonna get ya.....

[Amo]

They do it by banging on about the injustice of the Middle East. They drag in the Arab Jew hostilities.

The liberals should take a look at what a lot of Muslim men think of women and homosexuals.

You don't think the Arab-Israeli conflict has any bearing on the complexion of the Middle East & foreign policy?

[joey_big_nose]

To be honest as it's been raining today and an international break I've spent a lot of time on social media and yeah, it's been rammed full of that crap.

Kind of took this from a link I saw today, but found it to be pretty much spot on:

How Muslim apologists work:

A Terrorist attack happens.

1st: Blame "Western" foreign policy.

2nd: Bring up terrorist attacks in which Muslims were killed.

3rd: Say that terrorism has no religion.

4th: Blame the Jews.

5th: Play the victim and make the whole conversation about "Islamophobia".

I don't understand what your point is. What is it you are trying to say?

[joey_big_nose]

Close the flipping borders now, hang Merkel up by her neck, send these refugees back home and wipe out IS once and for all, oh and don't let any 'british' Muslims back into the country who have gone over to fight for isis

Really sad that you are such a coward that you would walk away (if you ever believed in it) from liberty, humanity, fairness and human rights because 140 people have been killed across the channel by another bunch of cowards. It's hardly the blitz is it.

Glad we have had more backbone when times have actually been tough. No doubt you would have had all the Irish thrown out of the country too during the troubles.

Get a grip. Don't become narrow and mean in your thinking just because you are scared.

[AllRoverAsia]

Really sad that you are such a coward that you would walk away (if you ever believed in it) from liberty, humanity, fairness and human rights because 140 people have been killed across the channel by another bunch of cowards. It's hardly the blitz is it.

Glad we have had more backbone when times have actually been tough. No doubt you would have had all the Irish thrown out of the country too during the troubles.

Get a grip. Don't become narrow and mean in your thinking just because you are scared.

You might want to reconsider those statements. Will you say the same if or when it happens in London?

[Mike E]

You might want to reconsider those statements. Will you say the same if or when it happens in London?

It happened in London 10 years ago and we managed perfectly fine.

[AllRoverAsia]

It happened in London 10 years ago and we managed perfectly fine.

What? I do not understand your post at all.

Have you understood what I was meaning? I do not consider 140 deaths in Paris to be insignificant nor should it be said to be ''It's hardly the blitz is it''

[Mike E]

I did misunderstand, I didn't realise you'd bolded particular parts of the post.

I thought you were partly referring to his statement of being glad we were tougher back in WW2 with the Nazi threat.

Hence I thought you implied we'd respond weakly should 'this' (Paris) happen in London. Therefore I responded by referring to our wonderful response to 7/7.

The euphoria of Rovers events (and insomnia) may be affecting my responses haha, apologies mate.

[Audax]

I don't think Assad or Sadam should have been free to commit genocide, troops needed to be left in Iraq unfortunately.

[joey_big_nose]

What? I do not understand your post at all.

Have you understood what I was meaning? I do not consider 140 deaths in Paris to be insignificant nor should it be said to be ''It's hardly the blitz is it''

of course it's tragic,and a terrible thing, however let's keep it in perspective. Having liberty, democracy and justice requires an ability to be strong in the face of challenges and stay true to those values. Its sad that a small section of people are so quick to vilify whole religious, political or ethnic groups out of fear and a desire to lash out. Thankfully the majority are not as weak as this.

Things are difficult sometimes, as they are becoming increasingly so now, but it is important to stay strong.

Democracy, justice, human rights etc would be impossible if every time an abhorrent crime or war occurs we collapse into hysteria and persecution. It didn't happen in WWI, WWII, September 11th, the IRA bombing campaign, the Cold War etc etc. This is no different in that respect.

[Audax]

Rocket Launcher found and 5 arrested in Lyon.

http://www.cityam.com/228820/paris-attacks-five-people-arrested-and-a-rocket-launcher-seized-in-lyon

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3319981/French-police-launch-series-anti-terror-raids.html

[joey_big_nose]

The video below is very tabloidy but this explains the ISIS situation well in my opinion. Essentially the West has always suffered in our Middle East policy because we don't know what we want to achieve and - even if we did figure out what we want - how to make it happen. It's all too confused, and we end up fueling rather than managing the fire.

Only people who win are defence contractors.

ps. The video titles itself as "the US created ISIS". A better way to describe it in my opinion would be "US policy created the conditions for ISIS to rise".

[JBiz]

To be honest as it's been raining today and an international break I've spent a lot of time on social media and yeah, it's been rammed full of that crap.

Kind of took this from a link I saw today, but found it to be pretty much spot on:

How Muslim apologists work:

A Terrorist attack happens.

1st: Blame "Western" foreign policy.

2nd: Bring up terrorist attacks in which Muslims were killed.

3rd: Say that terrorism has no religion.

4th: Blame the Jews.

5th: Play the victim and make the whole conversation about "Islamophobia".

Pretty much spot on? Couldn't be anymore ridiculous IMO.

Blaming a religion for the deaths is bigotry, I don't need an Internet meme or saying to make that any less my view. If the everyday person in the street is thinking this is the result of a religion and not a handful of misguided idiot people, That's the definition of falling for the intent of the bombings, they are designed to drive this wedge, and people fall right into the trap.

Personally I think most religions are equally pointless in 2015, they are mostly outdated and the good lessons taken from them collectively can be applied (ie love thy neighbour, don't steal etc) without the need to be part of a secular or group. That doesn't mean I'd criticise people for their choice, even Jehovas Witnesses who would kick their own children out onto the street if they didn't follow the scripture.

The main issues will always be with people though, not the religions For instance, if you want to be shocked- read about the bodu Balu Buddhists or whatever they are called - killing people because they disapprove of Halal! Crazy. Or the IRA troubles, which was primarily a Christian problem but I don't recall CNN reporters talking about the problematic "Christian countries" at the time. Or Pol "the atheist" Pot that slaughtered millions in Cambodia, or going back far enough the missionary crusades etc

There are countless examples of people using religion or hatred of religion to promote or justify violence. Violence is never justifiable. Whilst the religions may change, the main thing does not - people.

When we start referring to all 1.6billion Muslims as "terrorists" we make things worse. When we refer to all Muslim countries as backwards and women hating (even though Indonesia and Pakistan couldn't be anymore different) we make things worse. When we start championing more bombing as retaliation to bombings (which WILL kill more innocent people) we make things worse.

[Al]

Not all Muslims are ISIS but all ISIS are Muslims so we need to keep a close check on them and the returnees from Syria need to be deported. They are all dangerous. Japan Surrendered after the big bomb. Maybe time to bomb ISIS.

[JBiz]

http://www.joe.co.uk/news/australian-presenter-offers-his-impassioned-take-on-weak-isis-after-paris-attacks/26291

[joey_big_nose]

Not all Muslims are ISIS but all ISIS are Muslims so we need to keep a close check on them and the returnees from Syria need to be deported. They are all dangerous. Japan Surrendered after the big bomb. Maybe time to bomb ISIS.

The US, Saudis, French are all already bombing exceptionally heavily. Nothing wrong in principle with the UK also doing so in my view. But it is unlikely to change much. We are not fighting a government like in Japan. We are fighting a tiny proportion of the population who hide amongst civilians and who grow stronger the more civilians are killed.

If we are going to draw historical parallels the closest (and still very imperfect) would be Vietnam or Korea.

[ultrablue]

But Al there is no one that can surrender to us. We are trying to do the impossible; kill an idea. That idea is religious fascism. It has been around for centuries.

What is different though is this new kind of war- global terrorism. It is a long term test of our ideals and values that is coming from those who thrive on hatred, suspicion and division. We should not perpetuate their narrative by stooping to their levels of indiscriminate violence.

[DE.]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2015/nov/16/paris-attacks-we-all-have-our-own-ways-of-dealing-with-tragedy

[JBiz]

But Al there is no one that can surrender to us. We are trying to do the impossible; kill an idea. That idea is religious fascism. It has been around for centuries.

What is different though is this new kind of war- global terrorism. It is a long term test of our ideals and values that is coming from those who thrive on hatred, suspicion and division. We should not perpetuate their narrative by stooping to their levels of indiscriminate violence.

Beautifully put.

We are fighting a tiny proportion of the population who hide amongst civilians and who grow stronger the more civilians are killed.

Again- exactly why bombing does no good. If this was an army based on an island, it would be different.

You have to think about radicalisation also- it's much easier to be convinced into disgusting acts of hatred if your children, relatives, heritage etc is ravaged by war.

[Amo]

http://www.joe.co.uk/news/australian-presenter-offers-his-impassioned-take-on-weak-isis-after-paris-attacks/26291

Waleed Aly is a pseudo-intellectual. I remember him trying to convince an audience that there's no Islamic consensus on homosexuality. Thankfully Christopher Hitchens was on hand to set things straight (no pun intended).

[yoda]

But Al there is no one that can surrender to us. We are trying to do the impossible; kill an idea. That idea is religious fascism. It has been around for centuries.

What is different though is this new kind of war- global terrorism. It is a long term test of our ideals and values that is coming from those who thrive on hatred, suspicion and division. We should not perpetuate their narrative by stooping to their levels of indiscriminate violence.

Nor should we let their supporters roam free on our streets preaching hatred.