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[Steve Moss]

The horrendous hypocrisy of some US politicians towards Syrians.

"We don't think you are all terrorists, so get out whilst you can. Leave your home now before we flatten it. After all, only terrorists stay behind...

By the way you can't come here, we think you might be terrorists."

You're right. And so I propose they should all go to the UK.

If the experts are to be believed, there is only a negligible risk of terrorism, only a low incident of crime, and, as a net matter, they produce more than they take in as benefits. So a country would be foolish not to take in 2-3 million of them. That lucky nation's economy would be booming in no time.

If the experts are to be believed, that is.

[ultrablue]

It's simple Steve - if you drop the bombs, you take the refugees.

[Audax]

It's simple Steve - if you drop the bombs, you take the refugees.

And where? We are talking about Syria. One does realise the US is not really in a war there.

So what does one propose? Allowing ISIS to run wild and uncontested? Websearch Assad and barrel bombs.

US airstrikes have helped the Kurds regain towns.

So, it's really not that simple.

If anything, President Obama has limited the airstrikes there.

There is a coalition of forces that have conducted airstrikes there.

A poll showed 70% of the refugees are fleeing Assad (barrel bombs, look that up)

Figure 1: Main reason to leave 2. The violence of the Assat regime is the main cause of the refugee crisis. Respondents named the violent conflict (92%), the fear of being arrested or taken hostage (86%), as well as barrel bombs (73%) as direct threats to their life. Responsibility for these causes can be directly assigned to the government of Bashar al-Assad. More than two thirds indicate that the Assad army and their allies were responsible for violent conflict, less than half that figure name the so-called “Islamic State“ (ISIS). The Assad regime is by far the actor which inspires most fear of arrest or being taken hostage (77%), followed by ISIS with 42%. Since only the Syrian Army uses barrel bombs, this cause can also be traced to the Assad regime. Other armed groups were held responsible by less than 20% of respondents for arrests and hostage-taking.

https://www.adoptrevolution.org/en/survey-amongst-syrian-refugees-in-germany-backgrounds/

[Audax]

I've heard Syrians complain the US is not doing enough and were upset at us. And a number of Americans and Europeans feel the US has not done enough.

Again, top websites for what happens over there:

Syrian Human Rights Observatory: http://www.syriahr.com/en/

And a few others are out there, BBC is okay as well.

Assyrian News Agency http://aina.org/

Kurdish News: http://ekurd.net/

[ultrablue]

The US has been dropping 1000s of bombs on ISIS for more than a year now.

All the talk in the Republican party right now though is that the rules of engagement are too strict and that US forces should have a much higher tolerance for collateral damage (i.e. killing civilians).

At the same time they are saying that no Syrian refugees should be allowed into the United States. Jeb Bush has suggested a religious test - verifiable Christians only should be allowed in.

It is pretty hard for the right wing in the US to convince the people of Syria and Muslims in general that they are not at war with them whilst at the same time declaring they want to bomb their homes and then refuse them refuge because of their religion. As Obama said yesterday, there is no greater recruitment tool for ISIS than some of the talking points coming out of the Republican Party.

[Audax]

The US dropped 5000 bombs on 3000 ISIS targets back in January. And it hasn't let up. Just a couple of days ago US strikes took out more than 100 oil tanker trucks. As part of a coalition, the US has tried to carry out a precision campaign against targets designed to stop ISIS' ability to wage war in Syria and Iraq. I fully support that.

However, all the talk in the Republican party right now though is that the rules of engagement are too strict and that US forces should have a much higher tolerance for collateral damage (i.e. killing civilians).

At the same time they are saying that no Syrian refugees should be allowed into the United States. Jeb Bush even suggested a religious test - verifiable Christians only.

It is pretty hard for the right wing in the US to convince the people of Syria and Muslims in general that you are not at war with them when they say they want to bomb their homes and then refuse them refuge because of their religion. As Obama said yesterday, there is no greater recruitment tool for ISIS than some of the talking points coming out of the Republican Party.

"all the talk in the Republican party right now though ... etc."

Prove it. You won't find anyone saying this.

There is no figure the US dropped 5000 bombs.

The Democratic party has the Presidency, it is Obama who bombs.

It really is largely Clinton's and Obama's war what went on in Libya, so if ISIS is strong there, that is there fault. Same thing with the Arab spring in Egypt and saying Mubarak should have stepped down, a lot of people died over that.

I don't like to be confrontational, I won't read again, what is really just total disinformation..

[ultrablue]

"all the talk in the Republican party right now though ... etc."

Prove it. You won't find anyone saying this.

There is no figure the US dropped 5000 bombs.

US air strikes - the 5000 bomb figure was up to last January only

http://news.yahoo.com/us-led-forces-drop-nearly-5-000-bombs-233933056.html

http://www.vocativ.com/news/222962/u-s-airstrikes-against-isis-in-iraq-and-syria-surge-to-record-levels/

http://www.wsj.com/articles/french-airstrikes-in-syria-may-have-missed-islamic-state-1447685772

Right wing talking point on Rules of Engagement with quotes from McCain et al.

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/06/24/impossible-rules-of-engagement-zero-civilian-casualties-in-isis-battle/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/11/17/france-russia-pummel-isis-stronghold-as-critics-blast-us-rules-engagement/

Talking Point on allowing zero refugees in:

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/republicans-zero-syrian-refugees-aftermath-paris-attack

http://www.vox.com/2015/11/16/9746456/map-syrian-refugees-governors

Talking Point from Jeb Bush on Religious test for being granted refuge (includes video):

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/jeb-bush-us-syrian-refugees-prove-christian/story?id=35263074

[Audax]

The Ku Klux Klan, a hate group was the militia arm of the Democratic Party, it certainly appears some uninformed hateful people with their lies would fit right in.

No one can prove this laughable 5000 bombs and the lie about collateral damage makes it sound like someone is just looking for a fight and insulting others.

[ultrablue]

Ok Audax - this is getting a bit weird. Did you click the sources above?

[joey_big_nose]

I don't think anyone is saying all refugees should go to UK or US. They need to be shared around proportionally across Western countries.

It has to be done. There's a lot of posturing going on but if they aren't taken Turkey, Greece etc will buckle under the massive pressure.

We don't really have any choice.

[Steve Moss]

It's simple Steve - if you drop the bombs, you take the refugees.

Fine. Then send them to Russia. And good luck with that.

I've heard Syrians complain the US is not doing enough and were upset at us. And a number of Americans and Europeans feel the US has not done enough.

Again, top websites for what happens over there:

Syrian Human Rights Observatory: http://www.syriahr.com/en/

And a few others are out there, BBC is okay as well.

Assyrian News Agency http://aina.org/

Kurdish News: http://ekurd.net/

We're not doing enough? Agreed. That's why there is a war and why Russia has intervened.

It is not a reason to take in a single refugee.

If refugees need to be cared for, set up camps in Syria. Or in other Middle Eastern nations, such as Qatar, etc. They have the money, let them pay.

The US has been dropping 1000s of bombs on ISIS for more than a year now.

All the talk in the Republican party right now though is that the rules of engagement are too strict and that US forces should have a much higher tolerance for collateral damage (i.e. killing civilians).

At the same time they are saying that no Syrian refugees should be allowed into the United States. Jeb Bush has suggested a religious test - verifiable Christians only should be allowed in.

It is pretty hard for the right wing in the US to convince the people of Syria and Muslims in general that they are not at war with them whilst at the same time declaring they want to bomb their homes and then refuse them refuge because of their religion. As Obama said yesterday, there is no greater recruitment tool for ISIS than some of the talking points coming out of the Republican Party.

You do realize the Commander in Chief is Obama, a Democrat?

Republicans have 0% power over this war. It is President Obama who orders American bombs dropped, not the Republican talking points memo.

I don't think anyone is saying all refugees should go to UK or US. They need to be shared around proportionally across Western countries.

It has to be done. There's a lot of posturing going on but if they aren't taken Turkey, Greece etc will buckle under the massive pressure.

We don't really have any choice.

Of course we have a choice. And the choice should be "no".

13% of Syrian refugees support ISIS. http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/110415-779192-poll-13-of-syrian-refugees-support-isis.htm

Despite this, since I'm sure they're all jolly good fellows, you should't mind taking them all into the UK.

[ultrablue]

Fine. Then send them to Russia. And good luck with that.

You do realize the Commander in Chief is Obama, a Democrat?

Republicans have 0% power over this war. It is President Obama who orders American bombs dropped, not the Republican talking points memo.

Yes thanks I'm fully aware of that. I am supportive of the targeted, precision airstrikes on ISIS the US has been carrying out for over a year now under the approval of President Obama. Rightfully he has also implemented a zero tolerance for civilian casualties. Syrians need to know that the US and coalition nations are not at war with the Syrian people.

It's sad to see an American such as yourself Steve, who does not hold his own country to a higher humanitarian standard than Putin's Russia.

As for Republicans having 0% power as you put it, there is a piece of legislation going through your House of Representatives today that would stop the Syrian refugee programme immediately. Thankfully Obama will veto it if it passes. But this knee jerk reaction by House Republicans is designed to score political points by scaring voters, all whilst innocent lives are in danger. Innocent American lives too by the way. There is no greater recruitment tool for ISIS than division and suspicion.

There is also the small matter of the Presidential election next year. Countering ISIS has already become a hot button issue that is being fully exploited by the candidates. By the way, it takes on average two years for a refugee to be processed and make it to US soil. While these people are in overflowing camps in Jordan and Turkey, waiting to see what will happen to their lives, a lot could have change. Try telling them that the rhetoric of the Republican Party doesn't matter.

[yoda]

That blaming Muslims (and some are) is blaming a major victim of this whole thing.

I blame the people doing the killing, you know, the intolerant religious zealots that try to change every country they trap up in. It's not like they made a success of where they came from is it.

You don't get these problems with other minorities

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Yes thanks I'm fully aware of that. I am supportive of the targeted, precision airstrikes on ISIS the US has been carrying out for over a year now under the approval of President Obama. Rightfully he has also implemented a zero tolerance for civilian casualties. Syrians need to know that the US and coalition nations are not at war with the Syrian people.

It's sad to see an American such as yourself Steve, who does not hold his own country to a higher humanitarian standard than Putin's Russia.

As for Republicans having 0% power as you put it, there is a piece of legislation going through your House of Representatives today that would stop the Syrian refugee programme immediately. Thankfully Obama will veto it if it passes. But this knee jerk reaction by House Republicans is designed to score political points by scaring voters, all whilst innocent lives are in danger. Innocent American lives too by the way. There is no greater recruitment tool for ISIS than division and suspicion.

There is also the small matter of the Presidential election next year. Countering ISIS has already become a hot button issue that is being fully exploited by the candidates. By the way, it takes on average two years for a refugee to be processed and make it to US soil. While these people are in overflowing camps in Jordan and Turkey, waiting to see what will happen to their lives, a lot could have change. Try telling them that the rhetoric of the Republican Party doesn't matter.

Tell you what I find sad, people who continue to focus on minor targets because verbally attacking by lightyears the biggest and most concerning one doesn't fit with what's fashionable, doesn't fit with their own agenda, or is simply difficult so makes them feel uncomfortable.

Quite aside from the short-term goal of IS, we're also getting tasters here and there of how they would behave in the long term. Palestinians are systematically murdering Jews on a daily basis in Israel, the number of attacks on Jews in every European country has sky rocketed, and every time one is killed the likes of IS and Hamas enthusiastically cheer on social media, before egging on their supporters to commit more attacks. I sincerely believe Muslim extremists are trying to wipe out the Jewish religion, and with its ever dwindling followers due to violence and intimidation, I think before too long they will succeed. Then who will be next? You can guarantee some group will be. Its easier to eradicate minorities so probably Sikhs, then Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, Atheists.

One day they'll properly go after with people with exactly your view on things ultrablue. And no amount of distraction techniques, like having a go at easy, fashionable targets such as Republicans or American gun lobbyists or UKIP, will spare them from being killed. IS and the thousands of groups and hundreds of thousands of supporters it has inspired must be stopped. And I'm sorry but the people with your viewpoint who seem obsessed with criticising the minutiae of how its done are part of the problem in my opinion. America should be being cheered from the rafters for leading the bombing campaign, the only criticism I can possibly level at them is that it clearly doesn't go far enough.

[joey_big_nose]

Of course we have a choice. And the choice should be "no".

13% of Syrian refugees support ISIS. http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/110415-779192-poll-13-of-syrian-refugees-support-isis.htm

Despite this, since I'm sure they're all jolly good fellows, you should't mind taking them all into the UK.

Don't you think blanket bans like propsed by Trump show huge cowardice? Refusing to help thousands of people in desperate need because of an attack in one city thousands of miles away. Many of these refugees are desperate, and he and others (maybe you also?) want to blanket deny orphans, women, children, good people your help?

How would have anything good be achieved if people made decisions only based on what was the absolute safest option. Would the US War of Independence happened? Would we have resisted Hitler? Would the French Revolution have happened?

Life isn't easy. It isn't easy to be humane. We have to not let cowardice rule our values.

I have no issue with the UK taking proportionate numbers of Syrian refugees. I accept some (a very small number - I don't buy 13% for a minute) of them will be ISIS sympathisers. I believe in the ability of our intelligence and security forces to manage that. I want our response to this to be proportionate and considered, not hysterical and absolute.

[K-Hod]

Tell you what I find sad, people who continue to focus on minor targets because verbally attacking by lightyears the biggest and most concerning one doesn't fit with what's fashionable, doesn't fit with their own agenda, or is simply difficult so makes them feel uncomfortable.

Quite aside from the short-term goal of IS, we're also getting tasters here and there of how they would behave in the long term. Palestinians are systematically murdering Jews on a daily basis in Israel, the number of attacks on Jews in every European country has sky rocketed, and every time one is killed the likes of IS and Hamas enthusiastically cheer on social media, before egging on their supporters to commit more attacks. I sincerely believe Muslim extremists are trying to wipe out the Jewish religion, and with its ever dwindling followers due to violence and intimidation, I think before too long they will succeed. Then who will be next? You can guarantee some group will be. Its easier to eradicate minorities so probably Sikhs, then Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, Atheists.

One day they'll properly go after with people with exactly your view on things ultrablue. And no amount of distraction techniques, like having a go at easy, fashionable targets such as Republicans or American gun lobbyists or UKIP, will spare them from being killed. IS and the thousands of groups and hundreds of thousands of supporters it has inspired must be stopped. And I'm sorry but the people with your viewpoint who seem obsessed with criticising the minutiae of how its done are part of the problem in my opinion. America should be being cheered from the rafters for leading the bombing campaign, the only criticism I can possibly level at them is that it clearly doesn't go far enough.

Edit. Not worth it.

[Amo]

I sincerely believe Muslim extremists are trying to wipe out the Jewish religion, and with its ever dwindling followers due to violence and intimidation, I think before too long they will succeed.

Given that the Zionist lobby runs the US, I don't see that ever being a possibility.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Given that the Zionist lobby runs the US, I don't see that ever being a possibility.

Really, really scary that literally anyone in the educated world believes that moronic, racist conspiracy. And the Daily Mail get labelled paranoid/alarmist, how phenomenally hypocritical.

[ultrablue]

Tell you what I find sad, people who continue to focus on minor targets because verbally attacking by lightyears the biggest and most concerning one doesn't fit with what's fashionable, doesn't fit with their own agenda, or is simply difficult so makes them feel uncomfortable.

Quite aside from the short-term goal of IS, we're also getting tasters here and there of how they would behave in the long term. Palestinians are systematically murdering Jews on a daily basis in Israel, the number of attacks on Jews in every European country has sky rocketed, and every time one is killed the likes of IS and Hamas enthusiastically cheer on social media, before egging on their supporters to commit more attacks. I sincerely believe Muslim extremists are trying to wipe out the Jewish religion, and with its ever dwindling followers due to violence and intimidation, I think before too long they will succeed. Then who will be next? You can guarantee some group will be. Its easier to eradicate minorities so probably Sikhs, then Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, Atheists.

One day they'll properly go after with people with exactly your view on things ultrablue. And no amount of distraction techniques, like having a go at easy, fashionable targets such as Republicans or American gun lobbyists or UKIP, will spare them from being killed. IS and the thousands of groups and hundreds of thousands of supporters it has inspired must be stopped. And I'm sorry but the people with your viewpoint who seem obsessed with criticising the minutiae of how its done are part of the problem in my opinion. America should be being cheered from the rafters for leading the bombing campaign, the only criticism I can possibly level at them is that it clearly doesn't go far enough.

I write about what I know about SKH. And I certainly don't consider the potential new leaders of the world's only superpower to be just a 'minor fashionable' target. They could change the world in a few seconds in a way ISIS can only dream of!

If you want bigger picture on religious extremism I'll give it, although I feel I've said it a thousand times. You cannot kill the idea, so fighting extremist terrorism like a conventional war is madness. ISIS is already amongst us. 7/7 came from within, as did both attacks in Paris. Anyone with access to the internet can be radicalised. This is truly a global fight, in that any civilian deaths in Syria or Iraq can be used the next day to further radicalise some lad in Leicester.

What will win in the long run is our way of life. We don't let terrorists dictate our ideals. We engage, we unite, we include. This is the way you defeat hate. Those ideals are what make the US, the UK and many other nations great. They saved the Jews and defeated Facism. And no SKH, they'll never go out of fashion.

[yoda]

What is the justification for IS to kill a Chinese national ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-china-blog-34865696

They are out of control and need finishing

[joey_big_nose]

What is the justification for IS to kill a Chinese national ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-china-blog-34865696

They are out of control and need finishing

Dont think anyone disagrees with that. The question is how to do it.

[joey_big_nose]

This is bravery, this is strength, this is not abandoning your values in fear. Bravo.

[adopted scouser]

http://www.snappytv.com/snaps/andrew-neil-opens-the-show-about-this-week-on-bbc-1_h5/

[yoda]

http://www.snappytv.com/snaps/andrew-neil-opens-the-show-about-this-week-on-bbc-1_h5/

Saw it last night and can think of only one word to describe it,

SUPERB

[joey_big_nose]

http://www.snappytv.com/snaps/andrew-neil-opens-the-show-about-this-week-on-bbc-1_h5/

Fabulous. Absolutely spot on.