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[ultrablue]

Just as a general point, I'd rather the police kept the killing to a minimum myself.

I have to agree with yoda a bit actually. Wanting to kill random people does not automatically make you mentally ill, just as a killer who shouts a religious slogan is not necessarily a terrorist. This is what investigations are for. You can be completely lucid and understand the implications of your actions, yet still be convinced that beheading someone is the right thing to do in some twisted bigger picture. Mentally capable but ideologically out here. The doctors decide who is mentally ill and who isn't.

But the pressure of the news media forces the whole story to be told within the first 48 hours. As Pedro says, the full picture often takes longer to materialise, but by then the news has moved on. If you really want to know what is going on, you need the patience to wait and dig a little deeper.

[Paul]

I can't help but feel you're a bit over the top with the "pummelled with fear" bit Pedro. I'd agree there are news organisations who want to spread half truths and fear simply to earn money from their demographic who thrive on this type of reporting. Examples of which are very easy to find.

On the other hand we are fortunate to have the BBC, one of if not the most, respected broadcaster in the world to give us a more studied and measured view. There are many, many occasions when the truth proves to be very different from the initial news reports.

It's worth noting how cautious the BBC often is in reporting news while so many believe whatever somebody tweets or Facebooks.

There's plenty to be wary of but nothing to fear. Allowing these people to rule our lives with fear gives them victory. I'll continue to be where I wish when I wish, as should we all.

[ABBEY]

So, on one hand, you criticise the US for their gun culture, but you want our police force gunning down people in public?

Difference between a scumbag murdering turd and the police with guns . Surely you know that.

[ultrablue]

I've missed your turns of phrase Abbey. Is that a scumbag who murders turd? Or a turd that murders scumbags, or a turd that is both a scumbag and a murderer?

Whatever you meant, recent cases in the US show that the police and the murderers can be one in the same. Fortunately these cases are very rare in the UK.

[jim mk2]

There are many reasons to despise the Republican party and conservatives in general - and Donald Trump today provided another one.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7896ec98-9d37-11e5-b45d-4812f209f861.html#axzz3tdJY49Ti

[joey_big_nose]

An interesting parallel here is to consider previous comparable situations. Eg. The IRA bombing campaign in the UK or the ETA bombing campaign in Spain and France. In neither situation was there a call to ban the movement of all persons of those nationalities. It was never even thought of let alone raised.

Why does that come so quickly on the table with Islamic extremism? Especially when - in Western Europe - the IRA and ETA campaigns were far more deadly?

The murderous acts of a few thousand Jihadists is being used to blacklist a billion people. Total madness and the breakdown of the foundation of modern liberal values, and all while statistically (in Western Europe anyway as we have an effective policing and weapon control framework) we are safer than ever before. At least during the (totally disgraceful) McCarthy trials the xenophobia and hate grew during a period of true existential threat from the Soviet Union.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I can't help but feel you're a bit over the top with the "pummelled with fear" bit Pedro. I'd agree there are news organisations who want to spread half truths and fear simply to earn money from their demographic who thrive on this type of reporting. Examples of which are very easy to find.

On the other hand we are fortunate to have the BBC, one of if not the most, respected broadcaster in the world to give us a more studied and measured view. There are many, many occasions when the truth proves to be very different from the initial news reports.

It's worth noting how cautious the BBC often is in reporting news while so many believe whatever somebody tweets or Facebooks.

There's plenty to be wary of but nothing to fear. Allowing these people to rule our lives with fear gives them victory. I'll continue to be where I wish when I wish, as should we all.

The BBC are better than some but you still can't believe everything you see or hear on their sites. Especially since the new Tory government gave them the hard word.

[ultrablue]

There are many reasons to despise the Republican party and conservatives in general - and Donald Trump today provided another one.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7896ec98-9d37-11e5-b45d-4812f209f861.html#axzz3tdJY49Ti

The UK needs to ban all Trumps from entering its territories until the dangerous threat that they pose can be fully understood.

[T J Hooker]

My trumps would destroy any bounderies

[Paul]

An interesting parallel here is to consider previous comparable situations. Eg. The IRA bombing campaign in the UK or the ETA bombing campaign in Spain and France. In neither situation was there a call to ban the movement of all persons of those nationalities. It was never even thought of let alone raised.

Why does that come so quickly on the table with Islamic extremism? Especially when - in Western Europe - the IRA and ETA campaigns were far more deadly?

The murderous acts of a few thousand Jihadists is being used to blacklist a billion people. Total madness and the breakdown of the foundation of modern liberal values, and all while statistically (in Western Europe anyway as we have an effective policing and weapon control framework) we are safer than ever before. At least during the (totally disgraceful) McCarthy trials the xenophobia and hate grew during a period of true existential threat from the Soviet Union.

I was thinking about this very point earlier today. I come from close to Guildford - two of the pubs I used when living there were the Horse & Groom and the Seven Stars, both bombed by the IRA. We also lived not far from Aldershot, the Town were the first league club I got to see, barracks bombed by the IRA and I lived about 30 miles outside of Birmingham when the IRA bombed again.

I well remember sitting in a pub in Pershore, where I lived at the time of the Birmingham bombs, with a young Irish friend, same age as me. He was devastated and desperate to understand and hope the country did not believe this was how all Irish people behaved.

Despite my local being bombed, where friends could well have been drinking, I don't recall having any of the feelings expressed by those who condemn Muslims and Islam. Ask someone who wants to send Muslims "home," wherever that may be, if we should have done the same with the Irish and you won't get a reply.

As for Donald Trump a guy on R4 suggested he may have come close to committing a hate crime. God help us all if he gets elected.

[yoda]

Just as a general point, I'd rather the police kept the killing to a minimum myself.

I have to agree with yoda a bit actually. Wanting to kill random people does not automatically make you mentally ill, just as a killer who shouts a religious slogan is not necessarily a terrorist. This is what investigations are for. You can be completely lucid and understand the implications of your actions, yet still be convinced that beheading someone is the right thing to do in some twisted bigger picture. Mentally capable but ideologically out here. The doctors decide who is mentally ill and who isn't.

But the pressure of the news media forces the whole story to be told within the first 48 hours. As Pedro says, the full picture often takes longer to materialise, but by then the news has moved on. If you really want to know what is going on, you need the patience to wait and dig a little deeper.

More people should be thinking this way. These murderers are not in the same league as eta or IRA in their deprevaty and it is totally wrong to think so.These murderers cannot be negotiated with. They are as big a danger to their "own" as they are to the rest of the the civilised world and everyone needs to face up to them in the strongest possible way.

[Pedro]

I can't help but feel you're a bit over the top with the "pummelled with fear" bit Pedro. I'd agree there are news organisations who want to spread half truths and fear simply to earn money from their demographic who thrive on this type of reporting. Examples of which are very easy to find.

On the other hand we are fortunate to have the BBC, one of if not the most, respected broadcaster in the world to give us a more studied and measured view. There are many, many occasions when the truth proves to be very different from the initial news reports.

It's worth noting how cautious the BBC often is in reporting news while so many believe whatever somebody tweets or Facebooks.

There's plenty to be wary of but nothing to fear. Allowing these people to rule our lives with fear gives them victory. I'll continue to be where I wish when I wish, as should we all.

I'll be brutally honest and say, the BBC is not what it set out to be. They aren't impartial and purposefully report as many inaccuracies as the rest, if not more. Totally agree that there's plenty to be aware of but nothing to fear...but if you really listen to the scripts read by the presenters and 'witnesses' you'll pick up that the aim is to instil fear.

Re the BBC, I see the coverage of paedophilia and grooming in the higher echelons has died down and lots of evidence has been accidentally lost or buried. Unfortunately, people just don't care anymore because they've been sidetracked by over-reporting other matters. There are plenty of well - known characters who have been Teflon coated and things will only come out when they snuff it. It's shameful.

[Mike E]

I think the beeb has forgotten the point of it's own award. 'Sports Personality of the Year' is as much about the winner's personality as the winner's achievements. To then nominate Fury (who likens gay people to paedophiles) is outrageous imo. Even worse than when Giggs (serial cheat and man who was prepared to dump on his brother in the worst way possible) was nominated. Even more stupid that our public actually voted for the tosser.

[K-Hod]

Also in Andy Murray winning it when he doesn't appear to be in possession of a personality ;-)

[adopted scouser]

'Shake hands' died today.

"Another pint of bitter boss"

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Trump says the things many are afraid to say.

Just keep him away from the Nuclear Red Button if he does get in!

[Paul]

Trump says the things many are afraid to say.

Just keep him away from the Nuclear Red Button if he does get in!

Such as directly lieing to his supporters regarding no go areas for the London police because of the high level of Muslims living there. Similar comments re Paris though I don't now the real situation there.

The man appeals to a section of the electorate but America won't elect him....... fortunately for the rest of the world.

I'll be brutally honest and say, the BBC is not what it set out to be. They aren't impartial and purposefully report as many inaccuracies as the rest, if not more. Totally agree that there's plenty to be aware of but nothing to fear...but if you really listen to the scripts read by the presenters and 'witnesses' you'll pick up that the aim is to instil fear.

Re the BBC, I see the coverage of paedophilia and grooming in the higher echelons has died down and lots of evidence has been accidentally lost or buried. Unfortunately, people just don't care anymore because they've been sidetracked by over-reporting other matters. There are plenty of well - known characters who have been Teflon coated and things will only come out when they snuff it. It's shameful.

I'll be happy to accept what you say here if you can provide the evidence. I don't feel your say so is enough to justify the point.

I think the beeb has forgotten the point of it's own award. 'Sports Personality of the Year' is as much about the winner's personality as the winner's achievements. To then nominate Fury (who likens gay people to paedophiles) is outrageous imo. Even worse than when Giggs (serial cheat and man who was prepared to dump on his brother in the worst way possible) was nominated. Even more stupid that our public actually voted for the tosser.

Think you're exactly right here. Personality doesn't usually come in to it. Sporting achievements yes but not personality. As for Fury he shouldn't be near it and with luck won't turn up.

[jim mk2]

To judge from his interview on Radio 2 this week (the first time I've really listened to him), Fury has a personality disorder. If the Beeb has any sense they will rig the voting to make sure he doesn't win the award - the resulting furore and embarrassment would be too much to contemplate.

[yoda]

To judge from his interview on Radio 2 this week (the first time I've really listened to him), Fury has a personality disorder. If the Beeb has any sense they will rig the voting to make sure he doesn't win the award - the resulting furore and embarrassment would be too much to contemplate.

I thought I was reading the FIFA thread for a moment there

Is Gordon hot on your trail ?

[otto man]

An interesting parallel here is to consider previous comparable situations. Eg. The IRA bombing campaign in the UK or the ETA bombing campaign in Spain and France. In neither situation was there a call to ban the movement of all persons of those nationalities. It was never even thought of let alone raised.

Why does that come so quickly on the table with Islamic extremism? Especially when - in Western Europe - the IRA and ETA campaigns were far more deadly?

The murderous acts of a few thousand Jihadists is being used to blacklist a billion people. Total madness and the breakdown of the foundation of modern liberal values, and all while statistically (in Western Europe anyway as we have an effective policing and weapon control framework) we are safer than ever before. At least during the (totally disgraceful) McCarthy trials the xenophobia and hate grew during a period of true existential threat from the Soviet Union.

Comparable, really? Most western intelligence agencies estimate that around 10% of muslims are radicalised, Given that there are roughly 1.2 billion followers of islam world wide, we are looking at a far greater threat to our way of life, culture, values and traditions than we ever were/will be from eta and the IRA. You're kidding yourself and everyone else on here if you think can draw a parallel between the localised campaigns of those organisations and the very real threat that a radicalised islam represents world wide.

[Paul]

10% of Muslims are radicalised? Can we have a source for this please? Can we define "radicalised?" For example one survey asked respondents if they wished for Sharia law in their country and then classified those respondents as "radicalised"

Muslims and Islam key findings by the Pew Centre:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/07/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

France estimates 0.0000575% of population are radicalised Muslims - 3800 / 66000000

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11996323/France-is-fighting-unwinnable-war-against-terror.html?

If 10% of Muslims are radicalised one might imagine they would have already achieved world domination?

[Steve Moss]

10% of Muslims are radicalised? Can we have a source for this please? Can we define "radicalised?" For example one survey asked respondents if they wished for Sharia law in their country and then classified those respondents as "radicalised"

Muslims and Islam key findings by the Pew Centre:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/07/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

France estimates 0.0000575% of population are radicalised Muslims - 3800 / 66000000

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11996323/France-is-fighting-unwinnable-war-against-terror.html?

If 10% of Muslims are radicalised one might imagine they would have already achieved world domination?

Depends on your definition.

I think wanting Sharia law in the USA or UK is a good indication of being a radicalized Muslim. Per my understanding, Sharia law calls for:

Punishment ranging from beatings to beheading, if one "blasphemies".

The death penalty if one converts away from Islam.

Non-Muslims paying dhimmi in exchange for peace. If they refuse, then they can be enslaved or killed.

Under some Sharia countries, homosexuals can be executed and in other, more tolerant Sharia countries, it's fine to discriminate against them.

Sharia law, in some cases, approves of a husband "disciplining" his wife if she is disrespectful. And, in general, Sharia law discriminates against women from a human rights perspective.

In the criminal law context, Sharia law is unequal in that a Muslim male is more protected than a Muslim woman, and a non-Muslim is secondary to a Muslim.

In the civil law context, under Sharia law a Muslim witness is superior to a written contract. And a harm to a Christian or Jew is compensated at 1/2 to 1/3 of a Muslim's harm.

Under most Muslim countries' version of Sharia law, a confession obtained by a beating is valid.

Women can, and still are, beheaded for witchcraft under Sharia law.

If a woman is raped, it is common for that woman to be accused of fortification or adultery, under Sharia law.

All told, Sharia law from my brief review of which the above is a mere sampling, is radical. Any one professing to want to live under it is radicalized.

However, the poll you link to claims most Muslims in the USA wanting bigger government providing more services. If that's true, that's was enough for me. A benefits culture is the way down, not the way up. If they want to work in the USA, contribute, and become westernized citizens, fine. If they want a benefits check or live under Sharia law, they need to stay were they're at. Allow immigrants who want to improve your economy, not be a drain upon it.

[otto man]

10% of Muslims are radicalised? Can we have a source for this please? Can we define "radicalised?" For example one survey asked respondents if they wished for Sharia law in their country and then classified those respondents as "radicalised"

Muslims and Islam key findings by the Pew Centre:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/07/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

France estimates 0.0000575% of population are radicalised Muslims - 3800 / 66000000

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11996323/France-is-fighting-unwinnable-war-against-terror.html?

If 10% of Muslims are radicalised one might imagine they would have already achieved world domination?

You don't find sharia law radical? Degrading women,murdering gay men and women, lopping off limbs, and beheading "sorcerers" isn't radical? A total intolerance culminating in extreme sanctions for whomsoever doesn't agree with their book. Would you be apostate with a death sentence hanging over you?

Western intelligence agencies findings with regard to radicalisation have been widely reported, the information is out there if you care to look.

World domination? Just what do think is happening with the formation of their caliphate? It's no secret that these people want to see the whole world as one big caliphate!

​Ye gods! Once again your naivety is staggering. You really should stop hanging out with the father who's son is an islamic terrorist. That's the guy who has and I quote you here "So much to teach you" That's right, isn't it Paul, isn't that what you wrote?

​Tell me Paul how does someone so "Right on" and politically correct align themselves with these vile, disgusting, intolerant, bigoted and homophobic, sorry excuses for human beings and then have the temerity to point the finger and scream "intolerant racist bigot" at anyone who dares criticise your beloved religion?

Cry God for Harry, England and St George!

[K-Hod]

There are some wrong'uns amongst that religion. But 1 in 10? No way. In that case, anyone in Lancashire best look over their shoulder when they're out and about/at work/in a taxi/Indian restaurant/takeaway etc.

Muslims have been in Britain for about 50 years, if they wanted to take over, they'd have had a go already.

No more naive than anyone else is paranoid...

[otto man]

There are some wrong'uns amongst that religion. But 1 in 10? Behave.

Do the research K-H or keep ignoring the problem. The choice is yours.