[Archived] Extra ! Extra ! Read All About It !

[onlyonetugay]

Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Iain Duncan Smith, George Galloway and Michael Gove all think we should leave the EU. If that doesn't help you make up your mind, then I don't know what will!!

Russell Brand, Nicola Surgeon, Alex Salmond Peter Mandleson and Caroline Lucas all think we should stay in . Helps in the thought process that's for sure

Oh and no doubt Lord and Lady Kinnock think we should stay in too, after all ,they made a very good living off the back of it . The independent think tank Open Europe calculated that between them they made £10million in pay , pensions and allowances during their time as Commissioner and MEP . The EU certainly protects some workers' interests.

They then came back and accepted peerages. It's ironic that Lord Kinnock campaigned for years to have the House abolished , describing the Lords as “brigands, muggers, bribers and gangsters”

[jim mk2]

This referendum campaign will be fascinating to watch as the Tory party proceeds to rip itself apart and damage its leader in the process and the Tory-supporting journalists who dominate the BBC and other right-media ignore the real issues concerning Brexit such as the potential damage to the economy and instead pander to the less intelligent people in this country and their "concerns" over a perceived refugee "problem".

The Tories (and the right wing media) believe that as long as the plebs are supplied with enough right-wing propaganda that confirms their prejudices, then they will always back them. The 24 per cent of the electorate (yes, that low) who bought into Cameron's lies and rhetoric last May will be bombarded with anti-EU lies and rhetoric for the next 4 months. It's unbelievable that more people out there seem unable to actually read and think about things for themselves because it doesn't take alot of brainpower to see through the Out campaign's bullshit and bluster.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

It'll be fascinating to see what excuses you cook up if your side gets whooped again like it did last May. Word of advice, don't get too excited if you see some favourable opinion polls

[JBiz]

I've fallen for jack ****. And if that's the persuasion tactics of the In vote, insult the other side and make them out to be thick, good luck persuading anyone because you've just solidified my vote 10 fold.

You base your vote on others opinions and not your own interpretation of the "facts"?

There are many things that will be impacted by the decision. To see the whole thing as a pro/against migration, is to see nothing at all.

I wouldn't call myself political but isn't the FACT people are continually FORCED to work longer for the same money more important than what we think about 20,000 or so people who may or may not have been forced to leave their jobs, lives and families because of bombs?

Sure, both are important in ways - but I want to see this country improve for the future, not strangle people's opportunities in education, healthcare and job prospects through "austerity".

Let's blame those who seek a better life for one reason or another and forget about broken bankers, corrupt benefit claiming politicians and those celebrity tax ignorami (plural for ignoramus didn't you know? Haha)

[Baz]

Undoubtedly the biggest issue for me will be the sound bites from both sides, and lack of factual information actually given out by both sides and the media. Many people will go to the polling stations with very little knowledge, and that really concerns me.

As an example, there is an 'in-depth' review of whether we should vote in or out tonight on BBC1, hosted by the BBC political editor, which is looking to cover the whole topic in 30 minutes in between 30 minutes of soap opera and an hour of a drama.

Quite pathetic really when you think how important this issue is to the country, that they couldn't move one or both of the other programs.

[K-Hod]

Not wanting to stir the pot too much, but it seems like a lot of the people wanting out (not necessarily on here) are doing so because of 1 or 2 things rather than considering the bigger picture.

[yoda]

The 2.5 million expats are going to have a major say in staying in

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Not wanting to stir the pot too much, but it seems like a lot of the people wanting out (not necessarily on here) are doing so because of 1 or 2 things rather than considering the bigger picture.

People often make decisions based on what's most important to them. The austerity protestors haven't carefully investigated how the complexity of global economics works, they just want to keep theirs\their spouses\their relatives jobs. The anti-airstrikes protestors did anything but consider the full tactical situation involving IS and its many and horrific crimes, they just endlessly repeated the rather misleading mantra "don't bomb Syria".

Or perhaps those 2 groups did consider the big picture but never talked about the other stuff because it wasn't as important as the main thing they cared about. Well the same thing applies here.

Those that don't consider uncontrolled migration to be a problem appear to be blind\dismissive of the argument that its a huge problem. Leading to the incorrect assumption that people must only care about it because they don't know about any of the other issues.

Its quite ignorant really, which is ironic given that's the favourite slight of the pro-immigration argument.

[JBiz]

It's not pro or against, it's about finding a tangible middle ground.

I thought we had, we didn't take in loads to test systems like many others, yet we didn't completely ignore the farce we had a hand in causing - like Saudi Arabia.

[Dean]

People often make decisions based on what's most important to them.

Why is limiting immigration important to you? Or perhaps more importantly, why is it a bigger issue to issue than all the other things that the EU influence?

[Paul]

The 2.5 million expats are going to have a major say in staying in

The 2.5 million British migrants.........

[RibbleValleyRover]

Boris doesn't want to leave the EU, if you read his column he was pretty clear he just wants leave to win this referendum so that we renegotiate again to get more concessions and then hold another referendum and that time vote to stay.

Cameron absolutely savaged Boris today in Parliament over his wishy washy self interest stance.

[yoda]

The 2.5 million British migrants.........

Shallow, would be good to do a survey on why there is 2.5 million expats.

Back to the point I was making, think about it, is it 11 million eligible to vote of which 2.5 million have real vested interest in staying in.

[K-Hod]

People often make decisions based on what's most important to them. The austerity protestors haven't carefully investigated how the complexity of global economics works, they just want to keep theirs\their spouses\their relatives jobs. The anti-airstrikes protestors did anything but consider the full tactical situation involving IS and its many and horrific crimes, they just endlessly repeated the rather misleading mantra "don't bomb Syria".

Or perhaps those 2 groups did consider the big picture but never talked about the other stuff because it wasn't as important as the main thing they cared about. Well the same thing applies here.

Those that don't consider uncontrolled migration to be a problem appear to be blind\dismissive of the argument that its a huge problem. Leading to the incorrect assumption that people must only care about it because they don't know about any of the other issues.

Its quite ignorant really, which is ironic given that's the favourite slight of the pro-immigration argument.

I wasn't having a go, like I said, it's the impression I get from what I've seen so far. People just seem to think of immigration then vote to leave, when it's a bigger decision than that. Immigration needs to be controlled, but as I mentioned above, we might get loads of ex-pats migrating back here if we vote to leave the EU...

People making decisions on what's important to them is a bit selfish IMO. This referendum and elections for that matter are about more than that individual.

[Amo]

Should there really be a referendum when the overwhelming majority are uninformed on the subject?

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Why is limiting immigration important to you? Or perhaps more importantly, why is it a bigger issue to issue than all the other things that the EU influence?

Ok:

1. Overpopulation - responsible for soaring house prices, soaring commuting times, the necessity to build on greenbelt\flood plains, ever incrasing strain on the nhs\schools\councils, ever rising consumption and demand for energy encouraging things like fracking and generally the slow decline in living standards. A couple of decades ago I bet governments were wiping their brows in relief that our population was finally slowing down, and since then its grown at the fastest rate in a hundred years for one reason.

2. Driving down wages. A large proportion of migrants are unskilled men more than happy to work for the minimum wage. Flood the labour market with more and more every year and its christmas come early for business owners and the already well off.

3. Cultural conflict - short term issues like Germany are having and Sweden have had for a while. Long-term, the reversal of the progress made by women and LGBT groups, the erosion of sexual\cultural\religious freedom, Sharia Law? I suspect the people who are quick to dismiss this manage an impressive amnesia trick when it comes to the criminal gang child grooming epidemic, the Trojan horse attempt, the numerous terror plots foiled by the authorities every year, the rise of barbaric practises like honour killings, witchcraft/exorcism, acid attacks.

4. Loss of community cohesion and national identity/pride. Many migrants can't speak English and have no loyalty to Britain or western culture/values. This can manifest itself in terror attacks but also in subtle things like a reduced moral imperative to pay tax, insure cars, avoid littering, help and respect the police, avoid exploiting A&E for minor illness.

In the context of stable migration, I would be quite concerned about the above. In the context of ever increasing, at present sky-rocketing, migration, I'm extremely concerned.

[Dean]

Ok:

1. Overpopulation - responsible for soaring house prices, soaring commuting times, the necessity to build on greenbelt\flood plains, ever incrasing strain on the nhs\schools\councils, ever rising consumption and demand for energy encouraging things like fracking and generally the slow decline in living standards. A couple of decades ago I bet governments were wiping their brows in relief that our population was finally slowing down, and since then its grown at the fastest rate in a hundred years for one reason.

2. Driving down wages. A large proportion of migrants are unskilled men more than happy to work for the minimum wage. Flood the labour market with more and more every year and its christmas come early for business owners and the already well off.

3. Cultural conflict - short term issues like Germany are having and Sweden have had for a while. Long-term, the reversal of the progress made by women and LGBT groups, the erosion of sexual\cultural\religious freedom, Sharia Law? I suspect the people who are quick to dismiss this manage an impressive amnesia trick when it comes to the criminal gang child grooming epidemic, the Trojan horse attempt, the numerous terror plots foiled by the authorities every year, the rise of barbaric practises like honour killings, witchcraft/exorcism, acid attacks.

4. Loss of community cohesion and national identity/pride. Many migrants can't speak English and have no loyalty to Britain or western culture/values. This can manifest itself in terror attacks but also in subtle things like a reduced moral imperative to pay tax, insure cars, avoid littering, help and respect the police, avoid exploiting A&E for minor illness.

In the context of stable migration, I would be quite concerned about the above. In the context of ever increasing, at present sky-rocketing, migration, I'm extremely concerned.

Sorry, I didn't word my question clearly enough. I understand the effects of migration (although I may come back to some of those points I disagree with!).

You said people take stances on issues for personal reasons, citing someone wanting to protect a public sector job as an example. I was wondering what personal reason you had for caring about migration?

[Baz]

I really don't understand the media furore over what Boris Johnson has to say, this debate isn't about 2 rich boyhood friends tearing strips of each other in an attempt to be PM.

It's also not only about the free movement of EU citizens.

[jim mk2]

Boris doesn't want to leave the EU, if you read his column he was pretty clear he just wants leave to win this referendum so that we renegotiate again to get more concessions and then hold another referendum and that time vote to stay.

Cameron absolutely savaged Boris today in Parliament over his wishy washy self interest stance.

The EU has made it clear that if we vote to leave in this referendum there is no way back. Johnson is an oaf, a very popular oaf, but he's still an oaf.

[Audax]

Interesting story from India here since maybe we have some folks from there, maybe they can tell us something about this:

India caste unrest: Ten million without water in Delhi

More than 10 million people in India's capital, Delhi, are without water after protesters sabotaged a key canal which supplies much of the city.

The army took control of the Munak canal after Jat community protesters, angry at caste job quotas, seized it.

Keshav Chandra, head of Delhi's water board, told the BBC it would take "three to four days" before normal supplies resumed to affected areas.

All Delhi's schools have been closed because of the water crisis.

Sixteen people have been killed and hundreds hurt in three days of riots.

Read More At: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-35627819

[Paul]

Shallow, would be good to do a survey on why there is 2.5 million expats.

Back to the point I was making, think about it, is it 11 million eligible to vote of which 2.5 million have real vested interest in staying in.

No, tongue in cheek though it does amuse we have British expats and everyone else is a migrant. Strictly speaking the definition is correct but I think it's only the British who use the word. Anyway that's a minor aside.

I have thought about and mentioned the potential issues of EU exit for these people sometime ago. It seems to me it's questionable if permanent expatriates should have a vote in any UK election?

If the number eligible to vote is 11m then the expatriate vote at nearly 25% would be very significant. However there are 43m registered electors in the UK reducing the figure to 6% which is still significant and more so because I imagine these people are more likely to vote than UK residents. Presumably the majority will vote to stay in out of self-interest?

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pop-estimate/electoral-statistics-for-uk/2013/stb---2013-electoral-statistics.html

I'm assuming all registered electors have a referendum vote so I'm unsure where your 11m comes from. The generally accepted figure of British overseas residents, , is 2.5m and not 11m which is the unlikely but possible interpretation of your post.

[Paul]

Should there really be a referendum when the overwhelming majority are uninformed on the subject?

I think this is a very good point particularly in relation to the out vote. I will be voting to stay in, not because I pretend to have any deep knowledge of EU workings but:

Why would we want to alienate our nearest neighbours?

50% of our trade is with the EU.

EU membership protects some of our non EU trade from unfair competition from EU member states.

Far better to be a member striving for reform and improvement than to have no influence at all.

I don't understand the sovereignty argument. The UK makes its own laws though there are many instances were EU impacts as a result of trade etc.

Being subject to ECHR seems to me to be very positive and a potential watchdog over our own lawmakers.

As for people voting for something they are uninformed about there is a danger the out vote will be heavily influenced by the fear factor. I don't suggest in or out voters are better informed than each other but do expect the out campaign to play on people's fears - migration, refugees, benefit claimants etc. when these, I imagine, are relatively minor to the big picture.

On the migration question I'm not convinced leaving the EU will solve the issues this raises especially in relation to employment. There are very large numbers of migrants working in service industries which are traditionally low paid. As far as I can see there is nothing to suggest there is an army of local people waiting to become baristas, waiters or cleaners. Let's assume low wages are the only influence on this. If migrants have to leave the UK either those roles go unfilled or wages rise until the local workforce perceive the wages adequate. We will all pay that price - and I'm not objecting to higher wages.

I'm unsure on this but wonder if leaving increases the immigration pressure. A passport proves identity for travel and right of entry to one's country. As an example would France simply allow passport holders in the Calais camps to leave for the UK? Why would France care where those people went and what do we do with them when they arrive on British shores? If this occurred one might expect even more migration towards the UK in the knowledge EU countries would allow people to exit to the UK.

Better the devil you know..........

[onlyonetugay]

The EU has made it clear that if we vote to leave in this referendum there is no way back. Johnson is an oaf, a very popular oaf, but he's still an oaf.

Talking of oafs, a bit of light hearted banter in the debate yesterday , when Jeremy Corbyn said

“Last week, I was in Brussels meeting with leaders of European socialist parties , one of whom said to me.......”

to which a Conservative MP mockingly shouted " who are you? "

The Commons erupted in laughter and even Andy Burnham and Angela Eagle couldn't keep a straight face .

Jezzer is an oaf and would be a complete disaster as a PM , but as leader of the opposition at times he's pure comedy gold.

[K-Hod]

I saw that video, it was absolutely embarrassing. Grown men don't even have any manners, what an example they are setting. It doesn't matter whether you agree with Corbyn or not, you let someone finish when they're talking. They came across as being very arrogant and pathetic.

Obviously they feel they can shout someone down when they don't agree with them. What a way to deal with people eh?

[Dean]

Talking of oafs, a bit of light hearted banter in the debate yesterday , when Jeremy Corbyn said

Last week, I was in Brussels meeting with leaders of European socialist parties , one of whom said to me.......

to which a Conservative MP mockingly shouted " who are you? "

The Commons erupted in laughter and even Andy Burnham and Angela Eagle couldn't keep a straight face .

Jezzer is an oaf and would be a complete disaster as a PM , but as leader of the opposition at times he's pure comedy gold.

Saw that too. Pathetic, playground behaviour from as usual from the Tory benches.

I feel sorry for you if that is what you consider "comedy gold". Try getting out more.

Now this is funny. Funny because it's actually real (done by a UKIP party member). Think that might be Boris on the right.