[Archived] Extra ! Extra ! Read All About It !

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

You make some very good points re the manufacturing industry, but to draw on the final point about the junior doctors.

I saw a graphic the other week saying that if a junior doctor did a full week like Jeremy Hunt is proposing, their hourly rate would equate to a Lidl employee. Why should someone go through (7?) years of training when their earnings for a full week they could earn the same doing a much less stressful job at a supermarket. It's no wonder many doctors are clearing off abroad for better pay/working conditions and a better climate in a lot of cases. Let's not forget the cost of training Doctors isn't cheap and these guys need to repay student loans etc. Then we have to get Doctors in from abroad in a lot of cases.

Our NHS is vital to this country so it does need to be saved. Unless you're fortunate enough to be able to afford to go private, which I definitely can't!

That's a fair point, although again I would argue a similar thing has been going on in the private sector for years. If you're a junior solicitor or junior accountant or junior manager or whatever, the chances are your wage will be unimpressive and your hours hellish. When you lose the junior, the hours remain but the wage sky rockets. Which is the same as Hunt is proposing for doctors.

Like I said there's this general theme of areas of the public sector hoping to garner widespread public support from people who have already been doing for a while the thing they're objecting to! Not an easy sell and not one it looks like they're managing to sell going off the last election result.

Agree with your point about the NHS being vital though, not looked into it but I assume putting similar contributions to what you pay in N.I. into a private healthcare scheme wouldn't get you much. Like I said its about realism and compromise for me. Not looking at what they had before, taking a good hard look at what everyone else in society currently has, in most areas of the private sector that means about 1 pay rise in the last 10 years (of any description, not 1 above inflation, so a significant drop in wage in real terms).

[Mike E]

That's a fair point, although again I would argue a similar thing has been going on in the private sector for years. If you're a junior solicitor or junior accountant or junior manager or whatever, the chances are your wage will be unimpressive and your hours hellish. When you lose the junior, the hours remain but the wage sky rockets. Which is the same as Hunt is proposing for doctors.

Like I said there's this general theme of areas of the public sector hoping to garner widespread public support from people who have already been doing for a while the thing they're objecting to! Not an easy sell and not one it looks like they're managing to sell going off the last election result.

Agree with your point about the NHS being vital though, not looked into it but I assume putting similar contributions to what you pay in N.I. into a private healthcare scheme wouldn't get you much. Like I said its about realism and compromise for me. Not looking at what they had before, taking a good hard look at what everyone else in society currently has, in most areas of the private sector that means about 1 pay rise in the last 10 years (of any description, not 1 above inflation, so a significant drop in wage in real terms).

For teachers it's worse. I have friends who moved straight from a degree in grad schemes and are earning just shy of 30k 2 years later.

I'm on £88/day as a supply teacher (never get a full week), will be on £22k when someone takes me on as an NQT (if they do, the application process is demoralising at times), and it'll take me around 5/6 years of 'outstanding teaching' (as rated by the outdated box ticking pilchards known as OFSTED) to get near £30k.

I'm already at a point where I will get through my NQT when someone takes me on but have already considered quitting teaching, such I'd the strain on you full time.

I recently did full time cover for a teacher off with stress for half a term and was easily working 80 hours per week (including during the recent half term hols). So the work I was doing got me about £5/hour in real terms with no pay at all over the hols.

If a Doctor or Dentist or Solicitor had to deal with 30 clients for 6 hours (not all of whom understand what you say, or even want to be there), and treat them and their immediate family with professional excellence everyday for 9 months, as well as meeting targets set by people who insist irrelevant boxes be ticked, they'd have some idea of what a teacher does.

[jim mk2]

So instead of widespread redundancies at the first sign of financial unviability, you get decades of ignoring the financial unviability and when that's no longer an option, widespread redundancies. So when the junior doctors are waving placards saying "save YOUR nhs" and the Guardian is having a meltdown and George Osborne is being branded the anti-Christ, and the quiet majority are still voting for the Conservatives, it might be worth the doctors etc figuring out why and being a bit more realistic and open to compromise.

It's a good job your beloved Tory party didn't follow this line with Rolls Royce in the 1970s. Even Ted Heath's govt baulked at the prospect of Rolls going under when it got into temporary difficulties with the RB 211. The company went into receivership and was taken over by the govt (effectively nationalised) before it eventually recovered and was floated on the stock market many years later. Your neolibertarian market approach is typically short-sighted, sees only the short term and does not see the bigger picture or the long term national interests. The "market" does not work and benefits only the few - for evidence, look at median wages here and in the US over the past 30 years which have stagnated while the 1 per cent have grown ever richer. France is the model economy in this respect, - it protects and defends its national champion industries, has strong trades unions, places great importance on workers rights and conditions, and its economy even with the eurozone difficulties caused by financial crisis, is still bigger than the UK's.

[oldjamfan1]

Regarding doctors hours the NHS employers want to cut them from an absolute maximum 91 to 72 a week which must be a good thing. There normal hours will be around 48.

'There' (sic) normal hours will be around 48??? Really? We are talking about junior doctors here, right?

I have first hand knowledge that, in the real world, this is simply not correct.

For teachers it's worse. I have friends who moved straight from a degree in grad schemes and are earning just shy of 30k 2 years later.

I'm on £88/day as a supply teacher (never get a full week), will be on £22k when someone takes me on as an NQT (if they do, the application process is demoralising at times), and it'll take me around 5/6 years of 'outstanding teaching' (as rated by the outdated box ticking pilchards known as OFSTED) to get near £30k.

I'm already at a point where I will get through my NQT when someone takes me on but have already considered quitting teaching, such I'd the strain on you full time.

I recently did full time cover for a teacher off with stress for half a term and was easily working 80 hours per week (including during the recent half term hols). So the work I was doing got me about £5/hour in real terms with no pay at all over the hols.

If a Doctor or Dentist or Solicitor had to deal with 30 clients for 6 hours (not all of whom understand what you say, or even want to be there), and treat them and their immediate family with professional excellence everyday for 9 months, as well as meeting targets set by people who insist irrelevant boxes be ticked, they'd have some idea of what a teacher does.

Even assuming all you say is correct (and I'm certainly not downplaying how difficult it must be being a teacher but I'm not convinced the roles are comparable), what are you suggesting? That the junior doctors should like it or lump it?

[Mike E]

'There' (sic) normal hours will be around 48??? Really? We are talking about junior doctors here, right?

I have first hand knowledge that, in the real world, this is simply not correct.

Even assuming all you say is correct (and I'm certainly not downplaying how difficult it must be being a teacher but I'm not convinced the roles are comparable), what are you suggesting? That the junior doctors should like it or lump it?

Not at all, I'm with them 100%. I'm just throwing in another public sector job that's fallen victim to bureaucracy and a lack of funding.

I just think it's a shame that because teachers are still so undervalued and are now often not even mentioned in these sorts of debates (though, our unions are the most vocal so I suspect we've become white noise in politics).

Every job has its difficulties ofc, but the salaries of those in the public sector don't reflect those difficulties.

A TA on only £11k/year is ridiculous. A good TA is easily worth £20k.

[Baz]

Not at all, I'm with them 100%. I'm just throwing in another public sector job that's fallen victim to bureaucracy and a lack of funding.

I just think it's a shame that because teachers are still so undervalued and are now often not even mentioned in these sorts of debates (though, our unions are the most vocal so I suspect we've become white noise in politics).

Every job has its difficulties ofc, but the salaries of those in the public sector don't reflect those difficulties.

A TA on only £11k/year is ridiculous. A good TA is easily worth £20k.

Its not only the public sector Mike. Wages are stagnant across many areas of the private sector too.

In fact the sheer number of people employed in the public sector is the problem, tiers and tiers of people all picking up bigger and bigger wages through the system and not enough people at the coal face. I know of one north-west council who set up a specialist group of experts from across the borough in order to assess if the hospital bed they where using was the most effective, after 3 years (yes years) they disbanded because they couldn't make a decision, and had run out of their 100k budget fund.

The beds cost around £300.

This kind of thing isn't cross-council, each council makes their own decision, so there is no joined up plan, so each council could be doing the same thing.

As for the NHS the biggest problem is that the government want to bring in a 7 day none-acute service, which isnt needed, and in areas where they are trying to bring it in, they are having major problems as they are finding experienced staff leaving because they don't want to spend their weekends at work instead of with their families. My GP recently started to open the practice on Saturdays, they gave up after 6 weeks due to lack of demand, and missed appointments.

[jim mk2]

https://www.nao.org....-uk-banks-faqs/

I've posted it again . Not sure if you've read it , but click the link and you'll see the headline :

Taxpayer support for UK banks

That's us , by the way . Then look at the FAQ's , go down to question (7)

Will we get all the money back?

We is "us" the taxpayer, the government used our money to support the banks and the National Audit Office are posing the question "will we get all the money back". If it was the government's money the question would be " Will the government get all the money back "

Right that's the grown up explanation.

If you're still struggling, I've got this link for you from Newsbeat , a kiddies news programme , which explains it in kiddies terms .The tax we pay is "our " money , although the presenter uses the term " your money " It might be worth your while clicking that link too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/32496003/how-the-government-spends-your-tax-money

I'm guessing you're either a public sector worker or a retired public sector worker and can't face up to the fact that I'm paying part of your wage or have funded part of your pension with my taxation. To tell you the truth I'm having difficulty with it too

However if it makes you feel better to think it's the government's money and it's the "Lord Snootys" that are funding you , so be it .

I'll explain this for simpletons.

The easiest way to disprove the theory that it's "your" money is to go and ask for your share of the tax back. Oddly, when you approach HMRC, you will find there's not a single part of the government's money that is earmarked as "yours".

If you're still not convinced, try not paying what the government thinks you owe it in tax, and then see what happens. I can assure you they will take a dim view of your approach and then begin legal proceedings to recover the sum you owe. Any defence along the lines that it's "your" money will not help you, and you will discover that the law thinks the same when you land in court.

Unfortunately for you, parliament has decreed that if you earn an income, buy goods and services, dispose of or gift certain assets etc, then you will pay tax in some form or other.

Put even more simply, (so that even a 5-year old would understand), you only have a legal entitlement to your income after the tax due has been paid. It's your net income after tax that is "yours", the rest very definitely belongs to the government.

To judge from your childish comments you appear to be a private sector employer who exploits people either by employing them on zero hours contracts or paying them illegal wages that are below the national minimum. I expect they are also likely to be immigrants and like many others, your business would not be viable if you were not able to exploit them in this way. If you're not an employer and just a private sector employee then your comments betray a sad individual who has a chip on his shoulder about the public sector for some reason.

I would imagine also that you are a tax evader who is robbing the state of its rightful taxes that pay for the nation's hospitals, schools and security services etc etc. Tax evaders are the lowest form of life in my opinion, hypocrits who happily live in the country and enjoy all itsadvantages yet deprive the state and hard-working people who do pay their taxes of essential public services.

Anyone who is fair minded knows that is the case which is why the general public find tax cheats so offensive.

Are you Gary Barlow?

[yoda]

I'll explain this for simpletons.

The easiest way to disprove the theory that it's "your" money is to go and ask for your share of the tax back. Oddly, when you approach HMRC, you will find there's not a single part of the government's money that is earmarked as "yours".

If you're still not convinced, try not paying what the government thinks you owe it in tax, and then see what happens. I can assure you they will take a dim view of your approach and then begin legal proceedings to recover the sum you owe. Any defence along the lines that it's "your" money will not help you, and you will discover that the law thinks the same when you land in court.

Unfortunately for you, parliament has decreed that if you earn an income, buy goods and services, dispose of or gift certain assets etc, then you will pay tax in some form or other.

Put even more simply, (so that even a 5-year old would understand), you only have a legal entitlement to your income after the tax due has been paid. It's your net income after tax that is "yours", the rest very definitely belongs to the government.

To judge from your childish comments you appear to be a private sector employer who exploits people either by employing them on zero hours contracts or paying them illegal wages that are below the national minimum. I expect they are also likely to be immigrants and like many others, your business would not be viable if you were not able to exploit them in this way. If you're not an employer and just a private sector employee then your comments betray a sad individual who has a chip on his shoulder about the public sector for some reason.

I would imagine also that you are a tax evader who is robbing the state of its rightful taxes that pay for the nation's hospitals, schools and security services etc etc. Tax evaders are the lowest form of life in my opinion, hypocrits who happily live in the country and enjoy all itsadvantages yet deprive the state and hard-working people who do pay their taxes of essential public services.

Anyone who is fair minded knows that is the case which is why the general public find tax cheats so offensive.

Are you Gary Barlow?

On form tonight JIm

If the electorate voted against taxes would the Government be able impose them on the population ?

Why is the budget referred to as a settlement and who is the settlement with ?

[Mike E]

Its not only the public sector Mike. Wages are stagnant across many areas of the private sector too.

In fact the sheer number of people employed in the public sector is the problem, tiers and tiers of people all picking up bigger and bigger wages through the system and not enough people at the coal face. I know of one north-west council who set up a specialist group of experts from across the borough in order to assess if the hospital bed they where using was the most effective, after 3 years (yes years) they disbanded because they couldn't make a decision, and had run out of their 100k budget fund.

The beds cost around £300.

This kind of thing isn't cross-council, each council makes their own decision, so there is no joined up plan, so each council could be doing the same thing.

As for the NHS the biggest problem is that the government want to bring in a 7 day none-acute service, which isnt needed, and in areas where they are trying to bring it in, they are having major problems as they are finding experienced staff leaving because they don't want to spend their weekends at work instead of with their families. My GP recently started to open the practice on Saturdays, they gave up after 6 weeks due to lack of demand, and missed appointments.

Bob on there. Jeremy Hunt is his own rhyming slang, for sure. In what other profession are you allowed to accuse the majority of the workforce you represent of lying?

[onlyonetugay]

To judge from your childish comments you appear to be a private sector employer who exploits people either by employing them on zero hours contracts or paying them illegal wages that are below the national minimum. I expect they are also likely to be immigrants and like many others, your business would not be viable if you were not able to exploit them in this way. If you're not an employer and just a private sector employee then your comments betray a sad individual who has a chip on his shoulder about the public sector for some reason.

I would imagine also that you are a tax evader who is robbing the state of its rightful taxes that pay for the nation's hospitals, schools and security services etc etc. Tax evaders are the lowest form of life in my opinion, hypocrits who happily live in the country and enjoy all itsadvantages yet deprive the state and hard-working people who do pay their taxes of essential public services.

Anyone who is fair minded knows that is the case which is why the general public find tax cheats so offensive.

Are you Gary Barlow?

I've obviously touched a nerve. Let me know which one .The loony left in action . These are the incoherent rantings of someone who is clearly deranged .....................nurse !

[Al]

I'll explain this for simpletons.

The easiest way to disprove the theory that it's "your" money is to go and ask for your share of the tax back. Oddly, when you approach HMRC, you will find there's not a single part of the government's money that is earmarked as "yours".

If you're still not convinced, try not paying what the government thinks you owe it in tax, and then see what happens. I can assure you they will take a dim view of your approach and then begin legal proceedings to recover the sum you owe. Any defence along the lines that it's "your" money will not help you, and you will discover that the law thinks the same when you land in court.

Unfortunately for you, parliament has decreed that if you earn an income, buy goods and services, dispose of or gift certain assets etc, then you will pay tax in some form or other.

Put even more simply, (so that even a 5-year old would understand), you only have a legal entitlement to your income after the tax due has been paid. It's your net income after tax that is "yours", the rest very definitely belongs to the government.

To judge from your childish comments you appear to be a private sector employer who exploits people either by employing them on zero hours contracts or paying them illegal wages that are below the national minimum. I expect they are also likely to be immigrants and like many others, your business would not be viable if you were not able to exploit them in this way. If you're not an employer and just a private sector employee then your comments betray a sad individual who has a chip on his shoulder about the public sector for some reason.

I would imagine also that you are a tax evader who is robbing the state of its rightful taxes that pay for the nation's hospitals, schools and security services etc etc. Tax evaders are the lowest form of life in my opinion, hypocrits who happily live in the country and enjoy all itsadvantages yet deprive the state and hard-working people who do pay their taxes of essential public services.

Anyone who is fair minded knows that is the case which is why the general public find tax cheats so offensive.

Are you Gary Barlow?

Stop it Jim. You are beginning to appear silly and obsessive now apart from having a seriously flawed argument.

[jim mk2]

I'm sorry you don't understand it Al. It's pretty simple really.

[Al]

I'm sorry you don't understand it Al. It's pretty simple really.

Stupid post. I fully understand the issue. For Christ's sake give it a rest.

[ABBEY]

Simpletons , childish and Gary Barlow . Priceless

[Stuart]

It seems that Jim thinks that 'the Government' is something other than the elected custodian of taxpayer money who have been voted by the electorate as the best group of people to spend it wisely on their behalf. As though they are a private company that we have handed our cash to. Whilst it may seem that way at times, it really isn't.

It's a semantic argument though that he seems to be having far too much fun with. But whatever keeps him off the main forum...

[yoda]

Simpletons , childish and Gary Barlow . Priceless

One could get a life ban for less

[Baz]

If you read the post Jim responded too, you get a better understanding of why he replied in that manner.

[joey_big_nose]

Regarding doctors and, to a lesser extent, teachers there is a strange irony in some opinion.

Many say docs and teachers are well paid enough, and should be happy with their lot. Most, in my experience, of people who have this opinion are also of the opinion that publoc sector is wasteful. While to some extent true, this completely misses the point that the only reason that doctors and teachers wages are relatively low is because they are set by the near monopoly government has in those services.

If you privatised health and education salaries would go up hugely as schools/hospitals competed for the best staff. The US is a great comparison. Doctors over there get paid three or four times as much as uk doctors for doing the same job. Just because something is private does not make it efficient, in fact often quite the opposite.

There is a level of hipocracy in the private sector (of which I am a part) where many denigrate in broad terms the waste of public service while not recognising the truley outstanding value for money institutions like the NHS and the state school system provide.

its incredibly sad.

[jim mk2]

The right wing wants lower taxes and favours privatisation of public bodies, which is fine in theory but the result is you gain with one hand and lose with the other. The privatisation of the water, electricity, gas and rail industries has seen prices to consumer in those sectors soar over the past 30 years and for very little benefit to the nation as far as I can see except line the pockets of shareholders and the fat cats in the boardrooms.

Our utlility companies are mostly owned by foreign companies so now hundreds of millions of pounds in dividends flow overseas every year and you now have the ridiculous situation of some rail lines being run by foreign national governments. Stupid right wing ideology now believes it's OK for the German government via Deutsche Bahn to run some of our most important rail routes but not apparently the British government!

As far as the NHS is concerned Jeremy Hunt published a paper some time ago calling for the privatisation of the NHS and his fight with the doctors is just the start of more battles to come. The NHS is of course socialism par excellence and is admired all over the world but the right wing will not rest until they have damaged it irreparably.-

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I worked in a school for the last twelve years of my working life. The previous thirty eight years were spent in heavy engineering. I wouldn't have a teachers job for all the tea in China. Unless you've got first hand knowledge you've no idea how difficult the job is these days.

No wonder they're losing teachers faster than they are recruiting them.

[Audax]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35735793

Turkish government seizes largest newspaper. It sure seems like a country on the brink; Syria next door, they have trouble with the Kurds who to me, it looks like the Turkish government is too harsh with.

[Steve Moss]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35735793

Turkish government seizes largest newspaper. It sure seems like a country on the brink; Syria next door, they have trouble with the Kurds who to me, it looks like the Turkish government is too harsh with.

And Putin is messing with the Turks, amping up the pressure. I think he'd love to trick the Turks into doing something stupid, so the spinelessness of NATO is exposed.

[BlueMonday]

Regarding doctors and, to a lesser extent, teachers there is a strange irony in some opinion.

Many say docs and teachers are well paid enough, and should be happy with their lot. Most, in my experience, of people who have this opinion are also of the opinion that publoc sector is wasteful. While to some extent true, this completely misses the point that the only reason that doctors and teachers wages are relatively low is because they are set by the near monopoly government has in those services.

If you privatised health and education salaries would go up hugely as schools/hospitals competed for the best staff. The US is a great comparison. Doctors over there get paid three or four times as much as uk doctors for doing the same job. Just because something is private does not make it efficient, in fact often quite the opposite.

There is a level of hipocracy in the private sector (of which I am a part) where many denigrate in broad terms the waste of public service while not recognising the truley outstanding value for money institutions like the NHS and the state school system provide.

its incredibly sad.

And the amount the public would have to pay for such a Health Service through private insurance would be far greater than they are paying through tax.

If we adopted the American Type system, It would also lead to a 2 even 3 tier service, with those able to afford better insurance getting the best service. Those able to afford standard Health insurance would get health care perhaps equivalent to what we get now, but with caps and ceilings on the cost of the care they can receive.

People who criticise the NHS should be careful what they wish for. Yes there is waste in the NHS, but there is waste and inefficiency in ANY system or organisation because none are 100% efficient. The NHS is actually more cost effective than some insurance based Health Care systems. In these systems the cost of health care is inflated by Doctors and Hospitals who over charge and carry out unnecessary investigations and treatments.

This leads to an adversarial system where Doctors over bill and Insurance companies seek to deny claims to keep costs down, which can sometimes leave patients with huge bills, even when they are insured.

The NHS is by no means perfect, but anyone wishing it to be scrapped needs to think carefully about the alternatives.

[Audax]

And Putin is messing with the Turks, amping up the pressure. I think he'd love to trick the Turks into doing something stupid, so the spinelessness of NATO is exposed.

I keep up with this some, what a lot of people may not have even read directly is that Russia with its Muslim strongman Kadyrov is suspected of sending hitmen to Turkey and killing off Chechens who are not in favor of the Russian regime and may be in exile. This stuff reads like the stuff of espionage novels.

Assassinations of Rebel-Connected Chechens Continue in Turkey

Another name has been added to the list of Chechens killed outside Russia: Abdulvakhid Edilgeriev was shot dead last month in Istanbul’s Kayasehir district, which many Chechens have made their home. The murder took place in broad daylight—at about 1:30 p.m., on October 1. The Kavkazcenter website reported that Edilgeriev was apparently driving home from his mosque with his four-year-old niece when he was attacked (Kavkazcenter.com, November 3).

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=44573&tx_ttnews[backPid]=381#.Vty7z0CKZVJ I think I've had problems with this link before but it is from Jamestown.org and anyone can look it up.

[Pedro]

Not at all, I'm with them 100%. I'm just throwing in another public sector job that's fallen victim to bureaucracy and a lack of funding.

I just think it's a shame that because teachers are still so undervalued and are now often not even mentioned in these sorts of debates (though, our unions are the most vocal so I suspect we've become white noise in politics).

Every job has its difficulties ofc, but the salaries of those in the public sector don't reflect those difficulties.

A TA on only £11k/year is ridiculous. A good TA is easily worth £20k.

Just wait until after the next set of SATS are taken and the results get published - teachers will be the ultimate whipping boys again, there's absolutely no fear of that.

It is a tough job but unfortunately, the perception that teachers work 9am - 3pm and have a ridiculous amount of holidays is what sits with the morons who believe what the glorified titty mags tell them. 70 - 80 hours a week is the norm and to be honest, many people can't be bothered to educate the basics to the one or two kids they spawn, never mind 30 of them...but they are the ones to spout off the loudest.