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[joey_big_nose]

Actually, a percentage, even if 5% are radicalised; maybe only 2% are radicalised but more percentage points support what the radicals do.

So, if 2% of 1.6 billion are radical, that leaves quite a few.

If there are not radicals out there, why in the world are there maps showing how many Belgians, French, English, Americans, Germans have gone to join ISIS? Even if 500, 700 persons from England have joined ISIS, that's quite a lot.

It's a fair point you make. However collective punishment of a large group for the behavior of a small part of that group is not part of any concept of justice I know of, nor should it be.

Most violence and sexual attacks are committed by men. Should all men not be allowed through US immigration on the basis of that statistically solid link? It's does not seem to me like good logic to deny hundreds of thousands of people access due to the acts of a few dozen.

[Audax]

It's a fair point you make. However collective punishment of a large group for the behavior of a small part of that group is not part of any concept of justice I know of, nor should it be.

Most violence and sexual attacks are committed by men. Should all men not be allowed through US immigration on the basis of that statistically solid link? It's does not seem to me like good logic to deny hundreds of thousands of people access due to the acts of a few dozen.

I have a lot of sympathy for the refugees; on the other hand, we are not talking about collectively punishing people; we simply do not know about a lot of those coming in. No one is talking about a permanent ban.

Sexual offenders if known are not going to be given rights to live in a country. So, I guess, one can say it is the same thing, we don't know who is prone to commit a sex crime.

In a sense, we are talking about the well being of the public.

[Al]

Funny you should mention that:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/02/muslim-soldiers-first-world-war

These were Indians who fought on the side of the Allies. There were Russians, French and Italians who fought in that war too. It doesn't make them indigenous British. It's easy for you to support Muslims from where you live. They are not trying to make you live with their customs and religious beliefs like they are in Britain.

[Audax]

These were Indians who fought on the side of the Allies. There were Russians, French and Italians who fought in that war too. It doesn't make them indigenous British. It's easy for you to support Muslims from where you live. They are not trying to make you live with their customs and religious beliefs like they are in Britain.

Really, we know Japan is a super-homogeneous country; there's a chance South Korea is too; a good perspective.

[Steve Moss]

So you are talking about religion, not race or lineage. You confused me with the 'indigenous British' line.

As to that second line in bold, it seems to me you are saying:

a) people who follow Islam cannot integrate into British society, unless they give up their religion.

b ) You suspect any and every Muslim could be a terrorist by virtue of their religion.

Of course, tell me if I'm wrong

A westernized Muslim American explains the Quran and how it promotes violence. http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016/03/22/radicalization-isil-islam-sacred-texts-literal-interpretation-column/81808560/

Americans are beginning to realize that to combat terrorists, we also must engage with the radical components of the Quran. Blindly reciting that it is a religion of "peace" (actually submission) is not helpful. https://pjmedia.com/diaryofamadvoter/2016/03/22/are-we-ready-for-reality-after-the-brussels-terror-attacks/

Neither are Muslims.

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. If even 0.1% of them were a threat, we'd probably all be dead by now.

That's like me saying you are a suspected paedophile because you are white, British and a similar age bracket to Jimmy Saville and Stuart Hall*.

*(before you get offended by that, it's deliberately ludicrous to make a point!)

Depending on who you believe, radical Muslims are either 1% or upwards of 25% of the Muslim population. http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Security-Watch/terrorism-security/2015/0113/How-many-Muslim-extremists-are-there-Just-the-facts-please

A more detailed analysis indicates that the extent of radicalization is very much dependent on where the Muslim is from, originally. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/07/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

We should be paying attention to these datasheets and growing them. It would solve a lot of problems if we were able to avoid importing the radicals.

[Al]

Really, we know Japan is a super-homogeneous country; there's a chance South Korea is too; a good perspective.

Ultrablue decided himself to go there. He has no right to object to the way of life there. Nor do I believe that he does. If you go to another country you should live like they do or come home.

[Mike E]

Sorry Dean, as I told you, you are on ignore in case you were replying to me and I have no intention of opening your post to find out. You waste your time if you are replying to me.

C'mon Al, you're better than that. This post either comes across as extremely paranoid (as you wouldn't know what he said of you didn't open it) or a bit of a desperate putdown attempt.

[ultrablue]

These were Indians who fought on the side of the Allies. There were Russians, French and Italians who fought in that war too. It doesn't make them indigenous British. It's easy for you to support Muslims from where you live. They are not trying to make you live with their customs and religious beliefs like they are in Britain.

The difference of course being that they were British subjects. Remember when we went to many many different countries and made them live by our customs and religious beliefs?

Many British people of the Muslim faith are proud of their country, our country, and have played a full and vital role in our nation's successes, despite some unsavory obstacles being put in their way. Their presence is not them trying to change your way of life Al. They are simply trying to live their own life as they see fit. In Britain, they have the freedom to practice Islam without interference, but according to our democratically created laws. I for one much prefer the new Britain to the colonial bully of our forefathers.

[Audax]

The difference of course being that they were British subjects. Remember when we went to many many different countries and made them live by our customs and religious beliefs?

Many British people of the Muslim faith are proud of their country, our country, and have played a full and vital role in our nation's successes, despite some unsavory obstacles being put in their way. Their presence is not them trying to change your way of life Al. They are simply trying to live their own life as they see fit. In Britain, they have the freedom to practice Islam without interference, but according to our democratically created laws. I for one much prefer the new Britain to the colonial bully of our forefathers.

So, when their form of worship includes Jihadism and joining ISIS, one sees, this practise of Islam as a positive; of course, one doesn't but it merits being mentioned as well.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

A westernized Muslim American explains the Quran and how it promotes violence. http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016/03/22/radicalization-isil-islam-sacred-texts-literal-interpretation-column/81808560/

Americans are beginning to realize that to combat terrorists, we also must engage with the radical components of the Quran. Blindly reciting that it is a religion of "peace" (actually submission) is not helpful. https://pjmedia.com/diaryofamadvoter/2016/03/22/are-we-ready-for-reality-after-the-brussels-terror-attacks/

Depending on who you believe, radical Muslims are either 1% or upwards of 25% of the Muslim population. http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Security-Watch/terrorism-security/2015/0113/How-many-Muslim-extremists-are-there-Just-the-facts-please

A more detailed analysis indicates that the extent of radicalization is very much dependent on where the Muslim is from, originally. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/07/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

We should be paying attention to these datasheets and growing them. It would solve a lot of problems if we were able to avoid importing the radicals.

Some interesting stats there Steve Moss and quite illuminating on why the problem is so difficult to solve. The predominant (or at least it seems the loudest) school of thought in the West on the issue is to separate extremist Muslims from mainstream Muslims entirely. Act as though the former are some random species of insanity that have nothing to do with normal Islam and have no connection with it.

The reality (as I mentioned before), is its a spectrum. The extremists are at one end, but their views bleed into the rest of the spectrum and there are a heck of a lot of "moderate" Muslims whose views don't differ wildly (or not nearly as wildly as we'd like) from the extremists views.

That's why this problem is so difficult to solve. The whole spectrum is too far towards intolerance and extremism and its the whole spectrum that needs shifting so that the extremists behaviour will shift with it. There are currently hundreds of global Islamic terrorists groups active on the planet, and a miniscule amount of any other religion doing the same. The evidence is there in bucket loads that there is something fundamentally aggressive and intolerant with the Quran and what it teaches.

A few posts in this topic have been lamenting human nature and why are there evil people in the world etc. Take Islam out of the equation and moral progression is in full flow, the number of deaths due to conflict has plummeted since the second world war, trade blocks and global trade has replaced posturing military alliances. Deals are being done on climate change, international disasters receive more money in charity than they know what to do with.

Everyone else is going in the right direction and then we have Islam, which has barely moved forward in over a thousand years and its followers who are getting increasingly bold in their attempts to forcibly stop everyone else from moving forward. And I know its not all its followers, just as it wasn't all German people that allowed the rise of the Nazi Party. "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good to do nothing."

[Amo]

Radical Muslims are the true Muslims. You'll find that the positions they take are strongly supported by the Koran and the rest of their traditions.

[Audax]

Another thing I read, some places are changing more demographically in 20 years than they have in 1000 years. Somewhere one has to say, we have our human tendencies too.

[Audax]

I've mentioned before I had this Egyptian friend, he lives a conventional life, kids in karate classes, daughter became a physician and there isn't anything he dislikes more than the radical types, though he's got some sort of banner on his wall hanging with a quotation from the Koran, he would not even go to the local Muslim community centre. He's a very good fellow and most of the others I met through him are good people too. I could name names on whom he doesn't like but you get the picture, the radical types. I knew him well when the Arab Spring happened and Mubarak toppled, we were both pretty unsure about that but he knew the situation a lot more.

---------

For those talking about Saudi Arabia, I don't trust Qatar either.

Interestingly, I've read things about UAE, United Arab Emirates, another small Gulf nation; they seem to be reasonable somewhat though I am no expert. UAE has even been called anti-Islamic. They helped fund the Egyptian military in tossing the Muslim Brotherhood out of power and help fund Egypt fighting radicals in the Sinai.

[Amo]

Wow. You're sounding like a Second Amendment supporter.

As a libertarian, I would have to support it, Steve.

[roverandout]

Best way to stop these keaners is making owning weapons legal, having a suicide bomber or a machine gun wielding maniac jumps right in front of you when you are unarmed is like sending a lamb into a lions den. they never stood a chance, imagine being able to pull a gun out before these backwards @#/? could hit the trigger.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Best way to stop these keaners is making owning weapons legal, having a suicide bomber or a machine gun wielding maniac jumps right in front of you when you are unarmed is like sending a lamb into a lions den. they never stood a chance, imagine being able to pull a gun out before these backwards @#/? could hit the trigger.

How does having a gun help you in yesterday's circumstances ? You're stood in a queue waiting in to check in your luggage. Where does your gun go ? In your carry on case or in the hold ! Err, I don't think so? If if a lunatic wants to explode a bomb in the next queue to yours having a gun isn't going to protect you.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

A few quick and frank opinions of mine on this Islamic extremist terrorism wave:

·Any Muslim found to have left this Country to fight for Isis should NEVER be allowed to step foot on British Soil again.

·The death penalty for any Terrorist.

·The open monitoring of ALL Mosques and their 'teachings'...Non compliance means closure.

· The banning of Sharia Law in Europe..you want to live in a Western Society then you abide by OUR rules and Laws.

Hard times need hard decisions folks,the security of civilized western society and the freedoms it upholds must be protected with an Iron fist...we cannot allow ourselves to become prisoners in our respective countries to these men and women of Evil and their twisted religious beliefs.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee and that includes the bleeding heart liberals,we simply cannot tolerate this intimidation.

[perthblue02]

Best way to stop these keaners is making owning weapons legal, having a suicide bomber or a machine gun wielding maniac jumps right in front of you when you are unarmed is like sending a lamb into a lions den. they never stood a chance, imagine being able to pull a gun out before these backwards @#/? could hit the trigger.

Bet he/she could hit the suicide vest trigger quicker than somebody whipping out a penis extension.

[VinjayV4]

A few quick and frank opinions of mine on this Islamic extremist terrorism wave:

·Any Muslim found to have left this Country to fight for Isis should NEVER be allowed to step foot on British Soil again.

·The death penalty for any Terrorist.

·The open monitoring of ALL Mosques and their 'teachings'...Non compliance means closure.

Hard times need hard decisions folks,the security of civilized western society and the freedoms it upholds must be protected with an Iron fist...we cannot allow ourselves to become prisoners in our respective countries to these men and women of Evil and their twisted religious beliefs.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee and that includes the bleeding heart liberals.

I doubt that will do much to put them off.

Jim said all wars come to an end and perhaps ISIS will lose their "state".

Its smaller networks (and to an extent groups like Al Qaeda) I can't see an end to. Seems to me there will always be an indefinite list of suicide bombers and few things are more dangerous than people willing to kill themselves to kill others. At least they haven't got their hands on a nuclear bomb...yet. That would make 9/11 look minor in comparison. Just hope no such thing happens in my lifetime...and based on national averages I've got many years ahead of me! I guess you could argue in "no mans land" several people faced certain death but they were killed if they refused anyway. Of course the circumstances were very much different but is patriotism a form of brainwashing also?

Obviously force is needed against Islamic State (especially as they aren't exactly hiding in caves somewhere) but I agree that "winning the information war" as mentioned on a previous page is a way forward. How did the church in this country lose so much power over the centuries? Because people finally realised it was corrupt as hell! You know why protestants are called protestants? Because of the protestant reformation which of course caused a divide with Catholics. We can see that effect on football with Celtic and Rangers though that's minor in the grand scheme of things. Of course their intention wasn't for religion to decline in England but people became educated to the corruption of the church. In the past century of course church attendance has seriously declined which has to be related to modernity.

There is one passage in the Quran (thanks to EastEnders I know this) that reads "Do good to relatives, orphans, the needy, the neighbour who is near of kin, the neighbour who’s a stranger, to the companion at your side, and to the traveller."

I've never read an English version but it seems there's conflicting views whether it promotes peace or violence. I would suggest like all religion it contradicts many things and people interpret it in a way that suits them. Religion and hypocrisy go hand in hand and as I was never christened (hardly think its legitimate anyway if you have no say in it) its never shaped any of my beliefs. Aside from going to Church sometimes (with grandparents who were hardly bible bashers) and deciding it was brainwashing nonsense as I got a little older its never exactly hurt me either. I do however see the hurt it causes for others and religion definitely does more harm than good.

I'm not religious but I'm certainly pro western lifestyle. Not the biggest patriot either but I would certainly rather live in England than the Middle East! I don't rule out the existence of ghosts so much (though I've never seen one) and certainly don't rule out alien lifeforms either.

Plus if God was real my main reaction would be...what an egomaniac!

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

A few quick and frank opinions of mine on this Islamic extremist terrorism wave:

·Any Muslim found to have left this Country to fight for Isis should NEVER be allowed to step foot on British Soil again.

·The death penalty for any Terrorist.

·The open monitoring of ALL Mosques and their 'teachings'...Non compliance means closure.

· The banning of Sharia Law in Europe..you want to live in a Western Society then you abide by OUR rules and Laws.

Hard times need hard decisions folks,the security of civilized western society and the freedoms it upholds must be protected with an Iron fist...we cannot allow ourselves to become prisoners in our respective countries to these men and women of Evil and their twisted religious beliefs.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee and that includes the bleeding heart liberals,we simply cannot tolerate this intimidation.

Mm, the death penalty for every terrorist. That'll make the suicide bombers think again.

[Dean]

A few quick and frank opinions of mine on this Islamic extremist terrorism wave:

·Any Muslim found to have left this Country to fight for Isis should NEVER be allowed to step foot on British Soil again.

·The death penalty for any Terrorist.

·The open monitoring of ALL Mosques and their 'teachings'...Non compliance means closure.

· The banning of Sharia Law in Europe..you want to live in a Western Society then you abide by OUR rules and Laws.

Hard times need hard decisions folks,the security of civilized western society and the freedoms it upholds must be protected with an Iron fist...we cannot allow ourselves to become prisoners in our respective countries to these men and women of Evil and their twisted religious beliefs.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee and that includes the bleeding heart liberals,we simply cannot tolerate this intimidation.

NONE of that would help! Do you really think it would?

Don't let them back in? Kill them? They're willing to kill themselves, how does that help!

Monitor mosques? Most of the recruitment is done online. If any recruitment is done in mosques, they'll just move it.

Do you know what the great irony is? Everything you say there is similar to how ISIS run areas that they control in Iraq and Syria. Making us more like them is exactly what they want, and that's exactly what you have just suggested right there.

[Steve Moss]

Mm, the death penalty for every terrorist. That'll make the suicide bombers think again.

It would make a good many think again. Remember, not all terrorists are suicide bombers. A good many are not. They are the twisted souls who prey on the weak minded and convince them to strap on a bomb belt. They should hang.

[perthblue02]

It would make a good many think again. Remember, not all terrorists are suicide bombers. A good many are not. They are the twisted souls who prey on the weak minded and convince them to strap on a bomb belt. They should hang.

A lethal injection from a female ? bang goes the mythical 40 virgins that their invisible friend promises.

Just glad when I was younger my invisible friend just made me knick chocolates off the bottom row of the Xmas tree and blame the dog

[VinjayV4]

It would make a good many think again. Remember, not all terrorists are suicide bombers. A good many are not. They are the twisted souls who prey on the weak minded and convince them to strap on a bomb belt. They should hang.

When did hanging (or other punishments by death plus stuff like medieval torture and loss of body parts) ever prevent crime? CCTV hasn't even prevented it! Where there's people there's crime though I don't believe those who commit acts of terrorism can be reformed. I prefer the more "civilised" outlook on punishments though wouldn't object to hanging if it was 100% certain guilt. Could be argued wrongful imprisonment is worse than a death sentence in some cases. Look at Stefan Kiszko who died shortly after his release. At least he lived long enough to see his name cleared and at no point would have preferred a death sentence. Though his Mother/solicitor would probably still have cleared his name had he died in prison.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

It would make a good many think again. Remember, not all terrorists are suicide bombers. A good many are not. They are the twisted souls who prey on the weak minded and convince them to strap on a bomb belt. They should hang.

One of the worrying things about these guys Steve is they don't seem to be weak minded at all. Lots of them are well educated , university standard young guys. As were the young men that flew the planes into the Twin Towers. How seemingly intelligent people with everything to live for can be manipulated into committing group suicide is a real puzzle. I heard today that the master minds behind all this target engineering degree students because they have the mental tools to carry out these missions. As an engineer myself I find that a bit worrying.