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[jim mk2]

Thanks for that post - a good read from someone at the sharp end of the dispute.

Expect a backlash from people big on opinions but light on knowledge

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Good luck Gamst and thanks for your care and consideration.

You're just experiencing the treatment working people get theses days if you stand up for what you think is right. Stick together and don't let the buggers grind you down. Most of us really value the NHS and don't want to see us go down the American route.

I'm a contributor to Engineering sites in the USA and a common thread on those sites is the real fear lots of ordinary Americans have of the cost of even minor ailments never mind the serious stuff.

[Paul]

I support the doctors in their action and agree with Gamst re the public sympathy or support point.

My wife is a health care professional with 39 years continuous service in the NHS. She and many colleagues are approaching or have reached retirement age. She will tell anyone who listens there is a huge skills gap developing as highly experienced staff retire with insufficient replacements coming up with similar experience due to a lack of training and recruitment under previous governments stretching back many years.

My wife will also explain the NHS has become almost entirely reliant on the goodwill and dedication at every level of health care. Without those characteristics the service would be in even more difficulty.

For the layman the finest reason I've heard for supporting the doctors came from a lady interviewed this week on R4. She said, paraphrasing "doctors are highly educated, trained and intelligent individuals in whose hands we are happy to place our wellbeing and even lives when necessary. Why then should we not believe those same 47,000 educated, trained and intelligent individuals when they explain how wrong this contract will be?"

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I think the BBC coverage of the Junior Doctors Strike has been sub-standard. The tories have them in their back pocket whilst they anxiously wait to hear if their charter is renewed.

I don't see what the BHS employers have to do with this? Everyone feels for anyone who is made redundant, but why that should stop doctors protesting is beyond me?

I will declare my conflict of interest, Im a doctor and this is how I see it. Incidentally I disagree with the all-out strike. This is not because I fear for patients as the consultant led cover of emergency care is more than adequate. Rather, I fear that public sympathy will wane. Hunt and his minions use the right wing media to perpetuate the butchered statistics and half truths that he repeatedly spews and I fear that the public will be unable to see through it!

We were happily going about our business earning considerably less than our counterparts in other developed countries, regularly working many hours beyond our rotas to help patients. We were not asking for more money, we just don't expect to have a contract imposed on us that is clearly unfair and dangerous. I really don't feel that its unreasonable to defend ourselves. The premise of a 7 day NHS is a political scam. Anyone who works in the NHS knows that the present 5 day provision is threadbare and that extending this to 7 days is absolute madness, especially without any extra funding. Whilst doctors don't want to lose money, they mostly want to preserve the NHS as we know it so that our children have access to healthcare without astronomical costs or insurance premiums. The NHS relies on the good will of its staff and this will rapidly begin to disappear if it hasn't already. Doctors are highly qualified and our skills are certainly transferable outwith the profession. Many will either leave the UK or leave for the private sector and will earn more and work less hours as a consequence. We need to keep doctors in this country treating our friends and family. The foreign replacements often have had an inferior medical education. Indeed, we are constantly lowering the standards of foreign doctors that we accept in the UK to plug the gaping rota gaps that already exist. The explanation for astronomical wages and bonuses for bankers is that we need to keep them in the country, why this does not extend to doctors is beyond me. It reeks of a government whose priorities are wrong.

Some good points but how is it paid for then?

I keep saying that even latest budget, which people are up in arms about, is spending £30 billion that the government doesn't have. I'm not sure how much the government is expecting to save with the doctors cuts but lets just call it £10 billion.

So pretend you're responsible for the budget, you're not taking it out of the doctors so what's the plan? £10 billion is the minimum saving you need, but unless you think continually adding to the national debt isn't a problem, then £40 billion is what you need to save in the next few years.

There probably are other options, I'd just like to hear them from campaigners instead of the current jargon of calling Hunt/Osbourne every name under the sun and saying I don't care how/if you plug the deficit but don't take it from me.

[Baz]

Some good points but how is it paid for then?

I keep saying that even latest budget, which people are up in arms about, is spending £30 billion that the government doesn't have. I'm not sure how much the government is expecting to save with the doctors cuts but lets just call it £10 billion.

So pretend you're responsible for the budget, you're not taking it out of the doctors so what's the plan? £10 billion is the minimum saving you need, but unless you think continually adding to the national debt isn't a problem, then £40 billion is what you need to save in the next few years.

There probably are other options, I'd just like to hear them from campaigners instead of the current jargon of calling Hunt/Osbourne every name under the sun and saying I don't care how/if you plug the deficit but don't take it from me.

The government can decide not to go ahead with trying to move the entire NHS to a 7 day service for when we have a perfectly good 5 day non-emergency service and 7 day emergency service, especially when there is no extra resources to do this. That's the crux of the argument from junior doctors, from what I hear, that spreading a thin service over 2 extra days is a risk to patients. The statistics Hunt produced in order to justify the 7 day service is suspect, the fact he will only make comment on the junior doctors via the media rather than in person gives me the impression he's yet another of the current crop of soundbite politicians, who run from anything where they questioned.

There is also, as others have pointed out, a massive gap between the numbers of trained Drs, nurses, GPs and the need, even for a 5 day non-emergency service. Its not only drs, its nurses, admin staff, IT support, heating for buildings, security officials etc etc. In a nhs trust I work with in Manchester they are having real problems moving people from 5 to 7 days. Think of those with kids who are being asked to work 1 in 3 weekends for a tiny shift allowance (15p/ hr), and in return get a Tuesday off when no one else is home. Why should they be happy about that?

The other thing Osborne needs to do is to grow the economy, making cuts is fine, but if he'd delivered on his economic promises, instead of stagnating the economy, then we wouldn't even be discussing this.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just tell me I didn't really hear this -

On the news tonight I thought I heard the guy who was in charge of BHS when it went bust is interested in buying it back now the Pension Protection Fund ( our money ) is picking up the company pension shortfall !

The cheeky Keaner. A spell in the salt mines would do him a bit of good.

[jim mk2]

The guy's already a bankrupt. Free market capitalism is a wonderful thing.

[perthblue02]

Andy Burnham earning a lot of brownie points for his pursuit of the truth over Hillsborough , now looking at trying to do the same about Orgreave

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-36152559

Also an interesting piece in the mail regarding both the above

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3560552/PETER-OBORNE-Corruption-27-years-lies-Hillsborough-destroyed-faith-police.html

[Biddy]

Credit where credits due, Burnham's speech yesterday was brilliant.

[Mike E]

Wonder if he'll be the next Labour leader?

[ABBEY]

He should be now instead of the snivelling terrorist sympathiser

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Andy Burnham earning a lot of brownie points for his pursuit of the truth over Hillsborough , now looking at trying to do the same about Orgreave

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-36152559

Also an interesting piece in the mail regarding both the above

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3560552/PETER-OBORNE-Corruption-27-years-lies-Hillsborough-destroyed-faith-police.html

The writing was on the wall when the first thing Thatcher did in 1979 was give massive pay rises to the police, army and judiciary.

If you had eyes to see with that told you all you needed to know about how things were going to be in the future.

The police in this country were more or less given a free hand after that.

It's only now when the opposition to the right is on it's knees that the likes of Teresa May can wade into the police and freeze their wages and more or less direct the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire be got rid of. Their usefulness is over for the time being.

[RibbleValleyRover]

Wonder if he'll be the next Labour leader?

Well it was because of him that Corbyn got on the ballot in the first place as he told some of his backers to give votes to Corbyn to allow a broader debate within the party. If he hadn't Corbyn wouldn't be leader. He's done a good job on Hillsborough but he's nowhere near as good a politician as some think he is.

Another day another anti-Semitic scandal for Labour with Red Ken coming out with some truly outrageous comments the day after Naz Shah was suspended for saying in the past that Israeli Jews should be relocated to the US and that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal. They've got a real problem in the party.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Well it was because of him that Corbyn got on the ballot in the first place as he told some of his backers to give votes to Corbyn to allow a broader debate within the party. If he hadn't Corbyn wouldn't be leader. He's done a good job on Hillsborough but he's nowhere near as good a politician as some think he is.

Another day another anti-Semitic scandal for Labour with Red Ken coming out with some truly outrageous comments the day after Naz Shah was suspended for saying in the past that Israeli Jews should be relocated to the US and that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal. They've got a real problem in the party.

No prizes for guessing where its coming from. I've been saying for a while now that the snake in the grass among the political left/extreme left is hardline Islam. The celebratory Stop The War post after the Paris attacks, the death threats made to Labour MPs who voted in favour of the Syria air campaign, the segregation of Muslim women in some Labour meetings, and of course the nauseating and dangerous rise of anti-Semitism.

The last one really is abhorrent and absolutely no different to the attitude of the BNP. Start with the Jews because they're the smallest demographic, then it'll be Sikhs, Buddhists, Christians and finally Atheists. That's how these people think and instead of savaging such opinions, you've got non-Muslims on the political left actually joining in! Suggesting excuses based on Israel's foreign policy and what have you.

[Gamst]

Some good points but how is it paid for then?

I keep saying that even latest budget, which people are up in arms about, is spending £30 billion that the government doesn't have. I'm not sure how much the government is expecting to save with the doctors cuts but lets just call it £10 billion.

So pretend you're responsible for the budget, you're not taking it out of the doctors so what's the plan? £10 billion is the minimum saving you need, but unless you think continually adding to the national debt isn't a problem, then £40 billion is what you need to save in the next few years.

There probably are other options, I'd just like to hear them from campaigners instead of the current jargon of calling Hunt/Osbourne every name under the sun and saying I don't care how/if you plug the deficit but don't take it from me.

Baz has answered your question already. When we have such a huge deficit, why are we choosing now to extend to a 7 day routine service? It would literally take 20+ billion to achieve this properly. Its not just about doctors, we need nurses, porters, physios, social workers, radiographers, caterers, cleaners etc etc. In a dream world all doctors would love a 7 day routine service, but its a huge undertaking and Hunt is not willing to fund it. Essentially its political bunkum forged when writing the last manifesto without proper consideration and now Hunt is too weak to admit that it won't work. I am obviously biased, but I don't think squeezing savings from doctors salaries is a particularly good way to save some money as we can easily take our skills elsewhere. I think squeezing the top 1% is a better idea, but the tories are loathed to upset them! Begrudgingly, I have started tentative plans to move abroad. Thank you everyone for your support, the fight goes on sadly and Im not sure what the BMA's next move will be.

[K-Hod]

Well it was because of him that Corbyn got on the ballot in the first place as he told some of his backers to give votes to Corbyn to allow a broader debate within the party. If he hadn't Corbyn wouldn't be leader. He's done a good job on Hillsborough but he's nowhere near as good a politician as some think he is.

Another day another anti-Semitic scandal for Labour with Red Ken coming out with some truly outrageous comments the day after Naz Shah was suspended for saying in the past that Israeli Jews should be relocated to the US and that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal. They've got a real problem in the party.

Just before I crack on, those comments were deplorable, and Ken Livingstone's attempted defence was cringeworthy before it became even worse. It worries me that people in lofty positions hold such views.

As an aside, a general rule of thumb with Israel/Palestine, is that scholars that have written about it for years don't have a full understanding of it, so why others purport to be experts and subsequently embarrass themselves with outrageous comments I don't know. IMO they just end up looking bigoted and idiotic tbh.

[Amo]

So two Labour MPs suspended for criticising Israel.

[yoda]

So two Labour MPs suspended for criticising Israel.

Stupid post

[Amo]

Stupid post

"Antisemitic" surely?

[yoda]

"Antisemitic" surely?

Suggesting Isreal is moved to the USA certainly is

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Baz has answered your question already. When we have such a huge deficit, why are we choosing now to extend to a 7 day routine service? It would literally take 20+ billion to achieve this properly. Its not just about doctors, we need nurses, porters, physios, social workers, radiographers, caterers, cleaners etc etc. In a dream world all doctors would love a 7 day routine service, but its a huge undertaking and Hunt is not willing to fund it. Essentially its political bunkum forged when writing the last manifesto without proper consideration and now Hunt is too weak to admit that it won't work. I am obviously biased, but I don't think squeezing savings from doctors salaries is a particularly good way to save some money as we can easily take our skills elsewhere. I think squeezing the top 1% is a better idea, but the tories are loathed to upset them! Begrudgingly, I have started tentative plans to move abroad. Thank you everyone for your support, the fight goes on sadly and Im not sure what the BMA's next move will be.

Isn't it just that instead of being able to claim overtime (at no doubt eye-watering rates) for current weekend work done, which sounds like a regular occurence, the new system will simply make work done on any day of the week be paid at a flat rate? There must be some monetary saving in this whole plan, nobody goes to the trouble of taking on the public sector, who all band together regardless of which section is under attack, without a significant and probably vital aim.

We can't afford the public sector at the size it currently is, we never have been able to except now the chickens have finally come home to roost with the widespread public acknowledgement that the size of the national debt has become scary. So its either a higher tax rate or cuts. I can only assume the protestors aren't campaigning to up the tax rate due to fear of losing public support. So instead Hunt and the government get it in the neck for basically not shovelling mountains more onto the already astronomical debt.

The argument of get the money from taxing the rich more is one of the few solutions I give any credit to. Except I don't give that much credit because its not even close to being that simple. The government expects more tax to be raised due to the cut, which would indicate that raising taxes above a certain level causes the rich to either pursue tax avoidance in a major way, or to move abroad.

Its a common theme with all these protests that not a great deal of thought has gone in to alternatives that will solve the wider deficit problem. As I said it appears to be more of a selfish, short-sighted attitude of don't take the money off me. Well as a tax payer I could very well say the same thing, don't raise income tax and take it off me either.

Incremental salary increases, employer-matched pension schemes, 30+ days holiday, long-term fully-paid sick leave, free occupational health/counselling, funded work-related qualifications, employee benefit discounts schemes. I figure I already pay for a lot of people to have stuff I don't have (sorry, my company now pay 1% into my pension).

[Mike Graham]

Well it was because of him that Corbyn got on the ballot in the first place as he told some of his backers to give votes to Corbyn to allow a broader debate within the party. If he hadn't Corbyn wouldn't be leader. He's done a good job on Hillsborough but he's nowhere near as good a politician as some think he is.

Another day another anti-Semitic scandal for Labour with Red Ken coming out with some truly outrageous comments the day after Naz Shah was suspended for saying in the past that Israeli Jews should be relocated to the US and that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal. They've got a real problem in the party.

My Wife and I had been life long Labour Party members and of course voters. No longer. Being Jewish in the Labour Party opens you up to abuse and racism from the very people who preach anti-racism (as long as it suits them).

After many years in the Labour Party, and 40 years as a very active trade unionist, I have realised that Labour as well as the Tories, are full of s**t.

I cannot post what I think of anti-Semites.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

So two Labour MPs suspended for criticising Israel.

Not allowed to criticise?! Google attacks on Jews, google it with any newspapers' name after it, google it with any countries' name after it. There is something truly horrible going on out there which went well beyond criticism long ago.

[K-Hod]

Isn't it just that instead of being able to claim overtime (at no doubt eye-watering rates) for current weekend work done, which sounds like a regular occurence, the new system will simply make work done on any day of the week be paid at a flat rate? There must be some monetary saving in this whole plan, nobody goes to the trouble of taking on the public sector, who all band together regardless of which section is under attack, without a significant and probably vital aim.

We can't afford the public sector at the size it currently is, we never have been able to except now the chickens have finally come home to roost with the widespread public acknowledgement that the size of the national debt has become scary. So its either a higher tax rate or cuts. I can only assume the protestors aren't campaigning to up the tax rate due to fear of losing public support. So instead Hunt and the government get it in the neck for basically not shovelling mountains more onto the already astronomical debt.

The argument of get the money from taxing the rich more is one of the few solutions I give any credit to. Except I don't give that much credit because its not even close to being that simple. The government expects more tax to be raised due to the cut, which would indicate that raising taxes above a certain level causes the rich to either pursue tax avoidance in a major way, or to move abroad.

Its a common theme with all these protests that not a great deal of thought has gone in to alternatives that will solve the wider deficit problem. As I said it appears to be more of a selfish, short-sighted attitude of don't take the money off me. Well as a tax payer I could very well say the same thing, don't raise income tax and take it off me either.

Incremental salary increases, employer-matched pension schemes, 30+ days holiday, long-term fully-paid sick leave, free occupational health/counselling, funded work-related qualifications, employee benefit discounts schemes. I figure I already pay for a lot of people to have stuff I don't have (sorry, my company now pay 1% into my pension).

A lot of what you're saying it spot on. However, and without even attempting to be an economist (and certainly not an expert either), why can't more be done regarding tax avoidance? The deficit is massive and needs plugging, why can't it be plugged by some who should be paying but aren't? The PM did say he would be tackling it as it was immoral, and the subject of 'non-doms'.... Let's be fair here, if it was someone committing benefit fraud the government would be all over them!

Re Jeremy Hunt- the knives are quite rightly out for him and he wrote a book 'how to dismantle the NHS' didn't he?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Stupid post

Why ?

Not allowed to criticise?! Google attacks on Jews, google it with any newspapers' name after it, google it with any countries' name after it. There is something truly horrible going on out there which went well beyond criticism long ago.

You mean in Palestine and Gaza . I agree.