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[yoda]

Why ?

You mean in Palestine and Gaza . I agree.

Because the two in question made anti-semitic ramblings and have rightly been suspended and should be expelled

[Baz]

Isn't it just that instead of being able to claim overtime (at no doubt eye-watering rates) for current weekend work done, which sounds like a regular occurence, the new system will simply make work done on any day of the week be paid at a flat rate? There must be some monetary saving in this whole plan, nobody goes to the trouble of taking on the public sector, who all band together regardless of which section is under attack, without a significant and probably vital aim.

We can't afford the public sector at the size it currently is, we never have been able to except now the chickens have finally come home to roost with the widespread public acknowledgement that the size of the national debt has become scary. So its either a higher tax rate or cuts. I can only assume the protestors aren't campaigning to up the tax rate due to fear of losing public support. So instead Hunt and the government get it in the neck for basically not shovelling mountains more onto the already astronomical debt.

The argument of get the money from taxing the rich more is one of the few solutions I give any credit to. Except I don't give that much credit because its not even close to being that simple. The government expects more tax to be raised due to the cut, which would indicate that raising taxes above a certain level causes the rich to either pursue tax avoidance in a major way, or to move abroad.

Its a common theme with all these protests that not a great deal of thought has gone in to alternatives that will solve the wider deficit problem. As I said it appears to be more of a selfish, short-sighted attitude of don't take the money off me. Well as a tax payer I could very well say the same thing, don't raise income tax and take it off me either.

Incremental salary increases, employer-matched pension schemes, 30+ days holiday, long-term fully-paid sick leave, free occupational health/counselling, funded work-related qualifications, employee benefit discounts schemes. I figure I already pay for a lot of people to have stuff I don't have (sorry, my company now pay 1% into my pension).

Would you willingly work every weekend, missing family and watching Rovers, for no more money? There is absolutely no money to be saved in moving the non-emergency parts of the NHS to a 7 day service, in fact its far more expensive. The eye-watering weekend rates you presume are not true, currently set at time &a half, unless the individual has negotiated a separate deal. The NHS for all its faults, is far cheaper per head of population than any other service in a first world country. Are you happy to pay more tax, for a 7 day service that isn't really needed, to back the ideological plans of political whim (at best)? You should look at how many Tory MPs, or Tory party donors would directly benefit if more and more of the service was broken off. Would you prefer to live in a US based system of private healthcare where you are ok if you are well off, or aren't sick, but routine care packages we take for granted are incredibly expensive? In the US the average cost of having a baby is $10,000, and thats just the birthing part, not the checks, scan, post-delivery services.

Im presuming you would turn down workplace benefits because of cost, should they be offered? (Re the benefits packages).

[perthblue02]

The acting South Yorkshire Police Chief who took over on Wednesday has stepped down already

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/28/new-south-yorkshire-police-chief-hillsborough-dawn-copley-offers-resign-over-conduct

If Venky's did police forces!

[oldjamfan1]

When I saw this headline on the BBC News website this morning I did a double-take!!

"Tim Peake to control rover from space"

(insert your own punch line here)

[yoda]

Just confirmation that the Rao's are spaced out

[Amo]

Not allowed to criticise?! Google attacks on Jews, google it with any newspapers' name after it, google it with any countries' name after it. There is something truly horrible going on out there which went well beyond criticism long ago.

Criticising Zionism, or not acknowledging the Jews' monopoly on suffering is social or professional suicide. Even some Jews themselves admit that the "anti-semitism" card is used to silence critics.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Why ?

You mean in Palestine and Gaza . I agree.

You mean the almost daily knife attacks on Jews by Palestinians? You mean Palestinians voting in governments who are on the UN terrorist organisations list? You mean those governments launching rocket attacks on Israel on a regular basis, regardless of where the peace process is at, wether a ceasefire is in place or how many of their own people they put at risk of being collateral in retaliation? Yes I agree.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Criticising Zionism, or not acknowledging the Jews' monopoly on suffering is social or professional suicide. Even some Jews themselves admit that the "anti-semitism" card is used to silence critics.

Is it heck, its social suicide among young people in this country to NOT criticise Zionism, and will probably get you physically attacked in many social groups.

There's a difference between reasonably and respectfully criticising Israel, which is an approach anyone in public office should be taking if they do want to criticise, and the vile and threatening undertone to comments by people like Naz Shah saying all Israelis should be expelled from the Middle East and that Bhouttia NUS woman calling Birmingham student union a Zionist haven. If this is what the official criticism is, what the hell is the unofficial criticism? Oh yeah, its record physical assaults, defacement of graves and holocaust denial.

[Amo]

Is that why Holocaust denial is a criminal offence in some European countries, then? And we're not talking about people denying outright that it happened but people who debated certain aspects of the historical narrative and were thrown behind bars for their thought-crimes.

WW2 was a f****ed up war with atrocities committed by all sides. After the war and the kangaroo court known as the Nuremberg Trials, Germany became a proverbial dumping ground for our collective guilt. And since then, the Holocaust has used to push white guilt on Europeans and justify Israel's expansionist policies in Palestine. We can't very well allow people to challenge this most sacred of cows, can we?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Lots of people on the left ( and a few on the Tory right ) are justifiably nauseated by the actions of Israeli government. You only need eyes that see to be disgusted at the sight of a 21 st Century military power with 21st Century weapons venting it's spleen on a more or less defenceless population. Most thinking people realise that the Middle East will always be source of terrorists whilst this conflict is going on.

The Israeli government doesn't like the spotlight being turned on these criminal acts so it seeks to silence it's critics by calling them Anti-Semites.

It's supporters in the the USA and the UK parrot the same lines. Just like the USA sought to silence it's critics during the Cold War era of the 1950's by branding leftists and even some liberals " Communists ".

I can't answer for other peoples views or actions but I'm not an Anti-Semite but I despise the Israeli government and all it's apologists both here and abroad. If you align yourself totally with such repressive regimes you can expect a bit of stick coming your way from the people in this country who have a centuries old dislike of bullies.

Just out of interest how would you go on with Tebbit's " Test Match " test Steve ?

[adopted scouser]

When I saw this headline on the BBC News website this morning I did a double-take!!

"Tim Peake to control rover from space"

(insert your own punch line here)

He's in a place that's cold, dark and with no atmosphere. He might aswell be at Ewood

Is that why Holocaust denial is a criminal offence in some European countries, then? And we're not talking about people denying outright that it happened but people who debated certain aspects of the historical narrative and were thrown behind bars for their thought-crimes.

WW2 was a f****ed up war with atrocities committed by all sides. After the war and the kangaroo court known as the Nuremberg Trials, Germany became a proverbial dumping ground for our collective guilt. And since then, the Holocaust has used to push white guilt on Europeans and justify Israel's expansionist policies in Palestine. We can't very well allow people to challenge this most sacred of cows, can we?

Given the choice between the Jews and the Arabs, give me the Jews any time

[Al]

Given the choice between the Jews and the Arabs, give me the Jews any time

Agreed.

[VinjayV4]

Is that why Holocaust denial is a criminal offence in some European countries, then? And we're not talking about people denying outright that it happened but people who debated certain aspects of the historical narrative and were thrown behind bars for their thought-crimes.

WW2 was a f****ed up war with atrocities committed by all sides. After the war and the kangaroo court known as the Nuremberg Trials, Germany became a proverbial dumping ground for our collective guilt. And since then, the Holocaust has used to push white guilt on Europeans and justify Israel's expansionist policies in Palestine. We can't very well allow people to challenge this most sacred of cows, can we?

Well Germany did initiate it (as did Japan where the US was concerned) but others certainly simplify it with the "good guys v bad guys" nonsense. I'm not saying older relatives (as most of us probably had family members involved whether they wanted to be or not) I'm referring to the various governments. After all the UK had to join forces with Stalin's Russia and he was hardly a saint. Mainly why Stalin would always be ranked below Hitler on top of the UK's "most evil" lists as if there's a league table for it!

[jim mk2]

Just out of interest how would you go on with Tebbit's " Test Match " test Steve ?

Fail.

Why are people venting their spleens over a non-existant immigrant "problem" or perceived insults or otherwise towards Jewish people when there is something that they should be getting really angry about - ie, the unacceptable greed and sickening wealth of the few at the top of society.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6d8a9da8-0ddb-11e6-9cd4-2be898308be3.html#axzz47El4SEpe

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0e291562-0d52-11e6-b41f-0beb7e589515.html#axzz47El4SEpe

[Gamst]

Isn't it just that instead of being able to claim overtime (at no doubt eye-watering rates) for current weekend work done, which sounds like a regular occurence, the new system will simply make work done on any day of the week be paid at a flat rate? There must be some monetary saving in this whole plan, nobody goes to the trouble of taking on the public sector, who all band together regardless of which section is under attack, without a significant and probably vital aim.

We can't afford the public sector at the size it currently is, we never have been able to except now the chickens have finally come home to roost with the widespread public acknowledgement that the size of the national debt has become scary. So its either a higher tax rate or cuts. I can only assume the protestors aren't campaigning to up the tax rate due to fear of losing public support. So instead Hunt and the government get it in the neck for basically not shovelling mountains more onto the already astronomical debt.

The argument of get the money from taxing the rich more is one of the few solutions I give any credit to. Except I don't give that much credit because its not even close to being that simple. The government expects more tax to be raised due to the cut, which would indicate that raising taxes above a certain level causes the rich to either pursue tax avoidance in a major way, or to move abroad.

Its a common theme with all these protests that not a great deal of thought has gone in to alternatives that will solve the wider deficit problem. As I said it appears to be more of a selfish, short-sighted attitude of don't take the money off me. Well as a tax payer I could very well say the same thing, don't raise income tax and take it off me either.

Incremental salary increases, employer-matched pension schemes, 30+ days holiday, long-term fully-paid sick leave, free occupational health/counselling, funded work-related qualifications, employee benefit discounts schemes. I figure I already pay for a lot of people to have stuff I don't have (sorry, my company now pay 1% into my pension).

No way, you have completely misunderstood the point. Junior doctors are definitely not paid 'eye watering' wages and it drives me crazy when I hear members of the public talk like this. Sadly (for me), doctors are not paid like they were in the past. If I work out my hourly rate its not much more than minimum wage and that is with the weekend premium included. Out of hours work is just part of our wage. About 40% of our pay is based on banding above baseline pay and this varies by job according to how much out of hours is involved. We don't really consider the banding a bonus, its just how our salary is broken down. Without the banding the baseline salary is pretty poor although Hunt has offered a 13.5% increase on this (this is still a considerable real time loss).

You didn't mention the obvious stupidity of increasing services to 7 days when the deficit is huge in full knowledge that this will cost so many billions of pounds. You rightly mention our huge deficit and suggest that cutting doctors wages is a good way to go about clawing some of this back, but then you fail to respond to the main point of my previous post. Why not just put this plan on the back burner until more salubrious times return? Instead they have chosen to make a relatively small saving on cutting our wages as a contribution towards an unfeasible plan to extend the NHS to 7 days. The cynic suggests that this is such lunacy that the only explanation is that they are trying to dismantle the NHS to make privatisation seem more palatable to the public. Before you argue that this is inevitable because the NHS is too burdensome financially, let me explain to you why this would be a disaster. Im (un)fortunate enough to have worked as a doctor in the US and have therefore seen first hand what healthcare looks like when it is privatised. Believe me, unless you are very wealthy and have no co-morbidities, its disastrous. I saw so many patients attend the ER with untreated chronic diseases that had reached a severity that we rarely see here. I also saw many blue colour workers who had lived comfortably their whole lives and had then become unwell with common health problems like diabetes and had then become unable to afford their insurance. Many had taken the option to spend all their money on healthcare to then become bankrupt so they could claim medicaid. It really is a complete mess and we won't let it happen on our watch. You are right that pay is part of the argument (no one welcomes a pay cut right?), but I can honestly say that our fears for the future of the NHS are the driving force.

[yoda]

Fail.

Why are people venting their spleens over a non-existant immigrant "problem" or perceived insults or otherwise towards Jewish people when there is something that they should be getting really angry about - ie, the unacceptable greed and sickening wealth of the few at the top of society.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6d8a9da8-0ddb-11e6-9cd4-2be898308be3.html#axzz47El4SEpe

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0e291562-0d52-11e6-b41f-0beb7e589515.html#axzz47El4SEpe

The very same people that want us to stay in the EU

[jim mk2]

The very same people that want us to stay in the EU

Me stalker's back.

[yoda]

Me stalker's back.

It's an MB Jim

[Al]

Fail.

Why are people venting their spleens over a non-existant immigrant "problem" or perceived insults or otherwise towards Jewish people when there is something that they should be getting really angry about - ie, the unacceptable greed and sickening wealth of the few at the top of society.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6d8a9da8-0ddb-11e6-9cd4-2be898308be3.html#axzz47El4SEpe

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0e291562-0d52-11e6-b41f-0beb7e589515.html#axzz47El4SEpe

The immigrant problem is far from "non existant". It is the most pressing problem about the whole referendum in my view.

[ABBEY]

if we vote out will all the non british folk who moved here( ie east european) be booted out ? genuine question btw.

[jim mk2]

if we vote out will all the non british folk who moved here( ie east european) be booted out ? genuine question btw.

Of course not. They're a vital part of the economy. More than 50 per cent of nurses at our local hospital are Spanish. The NHS and many service industries wouldn't function without people from around the EU. And a Brexit won't stop immigration or the free movement of people either - in other words, immigration is non-issue.

[yoda]

Of course not. They're a vital part of the economy. More than 50 per cent of nurses at our local hospital are Spanish. The NHS and many service industries wouldn't function without people from around the EU. And a Brexit won't stop immigration or the free movement of people either - in other words, immigration is non-issue.

Not heard that before,

That would mean we can be outside the EU and still move around

[Al]

Of course not. They're a vital part of the economy. More than 50 per cent of nurses at our local hospital are Spanish. The NHS and many service industries wouldn't function without people from around the EU. And a Brexit won't stop immigration or the free movement of people either - in other words, immigration is non-issue.

Of course it will. Stop making things up to suit your arguments.

[jim mk2]

Trawl the internet,, do your research, read the many studies that have been written on the subject, don't ignore the ones that don't conform to own point of view. Open your mind and your eyes.

[Paul]

Of course it will. Stop making things up to suit your arguments.

Out of interest how will it stop?