[Archived] Transfer Talk Part 3

[martonrover]

When we see tangible evidence that Bowyer is learning then it will be fine to report it as fact.

Very lucky to have been appointed and certainly wouldn't have lasted this long under a real Board and Managing Director.

[beanie]

Could we not just sign Kim anyway and play him without his permit or are Qpr the only ones allowed to break that rule as well.

[The Rover of Finland]

Rudy Austin seems to be the example of the new rules for getting the work permit. Can't see any limit cases decided for the players.

[K-Hod]

I have been Bowyers biggest critic. However, considering how he has handled an extremely difficult situation at Rovers; egos, Money, internal politics, FFP and budget cuts whilst keeping us competive and hardworking, my guess is that he is fast developing into a fine manager.

I just hope we don't all only realise it when he's gone.

That being the case, in your opinion then, just why do we concede so many late goals and throw away more leads than anyone? If he was developing at the rate you suggest, then surely he would have drilled it into the defenders as a matter of urgency, the importance of shutting games out?

Also, regarding the 'sense of entitlement' comments, they're an absolute load of rubbish, with respect.

Many fans that can see the wood for the trees, know, that promotion represents the best chance of correcting our woeful financial situation, and when Bowyer (and largely the appointment of him, in favour of an experienced campaigner) is seemingly holding us back from achieving this, then surely, the frustrations of the fans isn't unreasonable? I feel like some people are living in a parallel universe where we have good owners, manager and no debts sometimes!

[Blandy]

Anybody know if we can appeal on Kim if it comes to it?

Im pretty sure this is an appeal we're waiting on

[ptholt]

Austin has also fallen foul of new rules of top 50 countries, so looks like Kim could be a no, as Austin is setting a precedent and a decision to grant him a permit for us will contradict the new rules, sounds most unlikely sadly.

interesting that a 10m package bypasses all new rules and requirements for players to be in top 50 countries, funny that....

not entirely sure how a 10m package makes a better prospect from a uk employment law point of view :s

[JBiz]

? I feel like some people are living in a parallel universe where we have good owners, manager and no debts sometimes!

Me to- especially when they use standard expectation when rating our progress since the pillaging. I could understand the full on criticism for GBs transfers, tactics, defending, interviews etc in this parallel universe where we have money to spend, big revenues, a chairman with a spine - but alas that's not reality.

[davulsukur]

Can't see the Kim deal coming off, sounds like Bowyer wants to land Guthrie though.

[K-Hod]

Me to- especially when they use standard expectation when rating our progress since the pillaging. I could understand the full on criticism for GBs transfers, tactics, defending, interviews etc in this parallel universe where we have money to spend, big revenues, a chairman with a spine - but alas that's not reality.

A 40 goal strikeforce though Joe. Bowyer has brought in more than 20 players pal! FFP hasn't always been a hinderance, he's brought in players without interference and seemingly for the sake of it without restriction until we were embargoed!

I still maintain that some of the players brought in were unnecessary, when we should have been prioritising centre mid! (And by centre mids I mean ones that go backwards or forwards, not following the rules of rugby!)

[LJW]

Please can someone explain to me how QPR can continue to sign players even though they fell foul on their accounts like we and other championshop clubs did? For me the moment they got relegated they shoudl have been thrown straight into an embargo and the appeal they submitted be sorted out straight away. If the FL had said this is whata going to happen now you are relegated then the whole situation could have been resolved one way or another by now. What if QPR win their case and dont have to pay their fine? Do all the others clubs under an embargo then sue the league? The whole thing is a complete and utter shambles.

[JBiz]

A 40 goal strikeforce though Joe. Bowyer has brought in more than 20 players pal! FFP hasn't always been a hinderance, he's brought in players without interference and seemingly for the sake of it without restriction until we were embargoed!

I still maintain that some of the players brought in were unnecessary, when we should have been prioritising centre mid! (And by centre mids I mean ones that go backwards or forwards, not following the rules of rugby!)

How many quality players have left in that time? We have a small squad now which shows the sheer turnover caused by dealing with the problems caused previous to GB. If you ignore that fact Khod, you are misremembering the damage caused 2010-2013.

Do you not remember Edinho Jr starting up front for us? That was an example of the player the gravy train brigade brought in.

We are not out of the problems caused at the time, and we won't be for a long time yet.

On of those players (from the 40 a week) was a signing of GB also- many are forgetting this. Was this a signing "for the sake of it"?

There is no denying that GB could have done better and certain players could have worked out better but completely writing him off is churlish still.

I might not fully agree with mani but I still think GB has done a good job in the circumstances (yes, unlike 50% of this message board my opinion is mine only and not sound bites stolen from people I agree with)

The problem has always been the circumstances, and regardless of who's in charge - those problems will remain unless mrs Desai returns us to a professionally run top class outfit.

[JHRover]

The decision in the Austin case SHOULD have absolutely no bearing on the Kim case. They are different players in different circumstances, so whatever precedent the FA have set by rejecting Austin can have no bearing on Kim.

They have to consider the pros and cons of his case independently of other cases and reach an impartial decision....

If it is rejected, then surely Rovers could put a good case forward that the FA are acting in a discriminatory manner and perhaps take it to the Court of arbitration. The FA are an independent body so if they don't agree to a permit and Rovers believe they have a case and the Home Office are prepared to grant him a permit to live/work here then the FA should be taken to task by an external body i.e. the Court of arbitration for sport.

Interesting that these new rules have a convenient get out clause inserted into them, so that when the big boys want to get their business done that is perfectly OK within the rules yet when teams further down the ladder want to do business the FA are able to prevent them from doing so under the pretence of trying to encourage more home grown players.

It is sickening that this is allowed to take place. Not to mention grossly unfair and in my humble opinion completely discriminatory. Why should your ability/value affect your suitability for a work permit? If a professional football club make you an offer then that should be that.

On another point I notice that South Africa are outside the top 50, so if we had decided to offer Furman a deal then we would have been struggling, Australia are outside the top 50, so if we now wanted to resign Emerton or Neill they would be out of reach. Togo come in at number 83 in the world so not fully clear how Aston Villa will be able to sign Adebayor (blind eye to be turned on that one).

As somebody else raised last night, Chris Wood is a New Zealand international who has just signed for Leeds United. New Zealand are currently 136th in the world, level with the mighty Bermuda, and below Afghanistan. So how on earth has he secured a work permit? He's only made 39 international appearances in the last 6 years, much lower than Kim.

[JHRover]

Please can someone explain to me how QPR can continue to sign players even though they fell foul on their accounts like we and other championshop clubs did? For me the moment they got relegated they shoudl have been thrown straight into an embargo and the appeal they submitted be sorted out straight away. If the FL had said this is whata going to happen now you are relegated then the whole situation could have been resolved one way or another by now. What if QPR win their case and dont have to pay their fine? Do all the others clubs under an embargo then sue the league? The whole thing is a complete and utter shambles.

Don't even try to comprehend it.

According to the rules the teams that come down from the Premier League get additional time to get their losses in order before sanctions are enforced. As QPR were in the Premier League last year it won't be until next years' accounts that their losses are looked at and dealt with.

In terms of their huge overspend the last time they were in the Championship the League have attempted to fine them, but because they are incapable of even enforcing their own rules properly QPR have appealed and as such any punishment is on hold pending the outcome of that.

The appeal outcome was supposed to be known in June, yet for some reason we're nearly in August and there's been nothing. The rumour is it could be the end of the year before the outcome is known.

Quite why it takes so many months to deal with what should be a simple 2 day trial to determine whether the League were right to fine QPR or not, who knows.

My suspicion is that the League know they haven't a leg to stand on and are now delaying things until a time, outside the transfer window, when an out of court compromise settlement with QPR can be reached. I expect a nominal fine spread over several instalments will be agreed as it will suit both parties and enable the continuation of our embargo whilst QPR are 'dealt with' and can continue to assemble a strong Championship squad.

[JHRover]

And yes, if QPR are victorious and the FUP system is thrown out in Court then the first thing Rovers should be doing is suing the League for a loss of earnings.

Ticket sales, merchandise and sponsorship can all clearly be traced to the transfer business a club does in the summer, so I'm sure we could argue the embargo has caused significant costs on that front.

Not to mention promotion. Surely we could argue that if we had been able to spend a few million this summer then we would have had a very good chance of promotion this coming season (as Mboro and Derby have done) and that the League has deprived us of that opportunity.

[Rover_Shaun]

It is sickening that this is allowed to take place. Not to mention grossly unfair and in my humble opinion completely discriminatory. Why should your ability/value affect your suitability for a work permit? If a professional football club make you an offer then that should be that.

So you'd be ok if the world used your rules and you were potted from a good paying job and replaced by someone fresh from, lets say, China who was prepared to work for minimum wage?

The rules are there to protect British nationals from being overlooked in favour of cheap non-skilled overseas labour ( sadly we can't do anything to discriminate against eu nationals)

The reason the uk national sides are in dire straits with no foreseeable improvement on the horizon is because clubs would rather employ non-british dross than give youth a chance. There would have been no Ian Rush, Peter Reid or even Dalglish if the rules applied then.

[JHRover]

So you'd be ok if the world used your rules and you were potted from a good paying job and replaced by someone fresh from, lets say, China who was prepared to work for minimum wage?

The rules are there to protect British nationals from being overlooked in favour of cheap non-skilled overseas labour ( sadly we can't do anything to discriminate against eu nationals)

The reason the uk national sides are in dire straits with no foreseeable improvement on the horizon is because clubs would rather employ non-british dross than give youth a chance. There would have been no Ian Rush, Peter Reid or even Dalglish if the rules applied then.

So on that basis you would support the Africans, South Americans, Asians etc. who all play at top Premier League clubs being sent home so that British players get a better opportunity to flourish?

If Lionel Messi joined Arsenal and Theo Walcott was sold to make way for him would that be in England's best interests?

Why should the rules be different just because we are a division below?

We're not talking about someone from China on a minimum wage job. We're talking about a professional footballer earning thousands of pounds a week who will probably never be using our welfare system and is on a limited term contract at a professional football club.

Interesting that he was suitable to work here less than 12 months ago when joining another club in the same division yet now shouldn't be allowed because of some false attempt to promote home grown players?

[Tom]

I'm a bit dense about all this but if teams like Middlesbrough don't go up this time there's no way they can get away with FFP next season is there technically?

Are they banking on either going up or the rules being thrown out by then?

It increasingly looks like we will be only one of two teams ever really effected by this

[roverandout]

How many quality players have left in that time? We have a small squad now which shows the sheer turnover caused by dealing with the problems caused previous to GB. If you ignore that fact Khod, you are misremembering the damage caused 2010-2013.

Do you not remember Edinho Jr starting up front for us? That was an example of the player the gravy train brigade brought in.

We are not out of the problems caused at the time, and we won't be for a long time yet.

On of those players (from the 40 a week) was a signing of GB also- many are forgetting this. Was this a signing "for the sake of it"?

There is no denying that GB could have done better and certain players could have worked out better but completely writing him off is churlish still.

I might not fully agree with mani but I still think GB has done a good job in the circumstances (yes, unlike 50% of this message board my opinion is mine only and not sound bites stolen from people I agree with)

The problem has always been the circumstances, and regardless of who's in charge - those problems will remain unless mrs Desai returns us to a professionally run top class outfit.

Most of them left under previous managers though, I don't understand the bowyer love-in with you bowyerrettes

[Damien]

I'm a bit dense about all this but if teams like Middlesbrough don't go up this time there's no way they can get away with FFP next season is there technically?

Are they banking on either going up or the rules being thrown out by then?

It increasingly looks like we will be only one of two teams ever really effected by this

I have to agree, I feel that the only clubs that will ever suffer from this FUP nonsense are Nottingham Forest and us.

Shame that we have to be so affected by this bo//ocks!

[imy9]

Gestede close to Villa move. According to Nixon on Twitter.

[perthblue02]

I'm a bit dense about all this but if teams like Middlesbrough don't go up this time there's no way they can get away with FFP next season is there technically?

Are they banking on either going up or the rules being thrown out by then?

It increasingly looks like we will be only one of two teams ever really effected by this

Possibly their way of thinking is take a punt this season if it does not come off will still have a decent squad to give it a good go the season after even if they are in an embargo, plus no doubt Gibson will not be afraid of mounting a challenge against FFP and fighting their corner with any awkward questions that may arise.

[JHRover]

I'm a bit dense about all this but if teams like Middlesbrough don't go up this time there's no way they can get away with FFP next season is there technically?

Are they banking on either going up or the rules being thrown out by then?

It increasingly looks like we will be only one of two teams ever really effected by this

Using simple maths will tell us that there is no way a club the size of Middlesbrough could afford to spend such an amount of money, miss out on promotion and still comply with FUP.

Losses limited to £8 million, yet they are looking to take their summer expenditure towards £20 million, not to mention one of the biggest wage bills in the division and losses of £20 million last year. It is simply impossible. No amount of clever accounting can get round those sums.

However, there is no way a 'good bloke' like Steve Gibson will be punished or deterred from spending money on his club. A local lad who is universally popular in football and who has funded his club for 20 years - no way the Football League will attempt to stop him spending. Gibson knows there is no chance of an embargo whether they get promoted or not. Hence why he is willing to spend such an amount.

[neophox]

Nicko says Villa agreed fee for Gestede. Lower than 8m then. So move is on.

[chaddyrovers]

Gestede close to Villa move. According to Nixon on Twitter.

It appears so. I reckon fee around 5 million pounds plus we might get a loan player from Villa like Callum Robinson

[JHRover]

Don't harbour any ill feeling towards Gestede. A move to Villa is a genuine and obvious step up for him.

Bigger club.

Better standard of football.

Better wage.

Fair enough. Hopefully the money received will sort out the embargo situation when combined with the Cairney and King money - should mean in excess of £10 million from sales this summer.

Rhodes and Middlesbrough on the other hand doesn't really tick any of the above criteria.