[Archived] Transfer Talk Part 4

[J*B]

Derby about to sign James Wilson on loan.

[chaddyrovers]

How many Players do Derby want? Bilmey. Its getting stupid now

[Stuart]

Which is it lads, I'm finding hard to comprehend the two lines of moan simultaneously.

Is it;

A. We never give kids games

Or

B. We give kids games exclusively to increase their revenue.

It's: we buy other teams cast offs who never made it in a bid to increase their value. It worked once (Gestede) so that's the way to do it.

We can hardly accuse Bowyer of playing our home grown kids too often.

I think the argument is that if we are skint, then why bring in mediocrity when we have players from our academy. If they aren't as good as some of the dross that we have brought in then some serious questions need to be asked.

[Dunnfc]

People and Gaz can hid behind player value as a major advantage of his tenure but least forget, your relegation battlers and previous skint teams like Leeds have fledged kids in the first 11 like Cook, Mowatt etc... Its almost a given.

So much so i'd expect player value as a minimum given our scenario, if you catch my drift?

[Tom]

How many Players do Derby want? Bilmey. Its getting stupid now

Surely they can only have 24 max registered, we have 22 it's not that ridiculous. They just have a higher standard of player overall probably.

[LewisF]

And they're still only 1 point above us. They should be walking this league by now, in a position similar to brighton's current one.

[chaddyrovers]

Derby should be top of this league but they arent even with that squad.

[tomphil]

I think you're looking at that with rose tinted spectacles Mercerman. I well remember being at Gay Meadow in 84-85 when were thrashed 3-0 and the fans calling for Bob's head, having lost the two previous away games at Oldham and Brighton. We were top at Christmas if I remember and then it all fell apart in the second half of the season. The following campaign we avoided relegation on the last day of the season, again if I remember rightly our game had to be put back to the Monday because the pitch was waterlogged on the Saturday and so we knew it was win or bust on that Monday night. I seem to remember the players taking to the field with Elvis singing "It's now or never!" over the tannoy. The following season we were bottom at Christmas and Bob was reluctantly sacked by Bill Fox after weeks of pressure from the fans for a change. Bob was a very decent manager and a very decent man but let's not pretend that everything was a bed of roses. It seems to me that it was rather like today in some ways - the fans wanting the board to take action and replace the manager - some things never change.

Aye certainly wasn't all nicey nicey, I remember chants of Saxton out and mates dad telling us to get up LBR back to the car after we were heading down Bolton road to watch a protest. Must have been around this time and it all seemed a lot more tasty than it did 3 years ago under that tool even though we only had about 6k fans ! I recall being delighted Saxton had been sacked, feel a bit guilty now after age grants the wisdom to fully appreciate what he did. Main point is though he'd run out of steam and was taking us down so he just had to go no matter how hard it was for some to take. It's just football and at least these days they leave with a nice cheque as a thankyou.

[JBiz]

It's: we buy other teams cast offs who never made it in a bid to increase their value. It worked once (Gestede) so that's the way to do it.

We can hardly accuse Bowyer of playing our home grown kids too often.

I think the argument is that if we are skint, then why bring in mediocrity when we have players from our academy. If they aren't as good as some of the dross that we have brought in then some serious questions need to be asked.

Finally a reply, I'd lost hope

I think it's a balancing act that takes a lot of experience to master. I'm not claiming GB has it right but the post was trying to find the actual middle ground between a few posts prior that seemed to contradict each other. I don't know the answer, I think he's got some wrong and some right.

I don't think we are buying players simply to increase their face value either since it slipped into the reply. It is a common assumption on here but just cynical IMO.

Ignoring all the the knock on effects on the academy starting in 2010, ignoring still suspect club structure and inexperience since, ignoring the wage shedding process of the past 24 months and ignoring the embargo and squad limit, It's difficult to disagree with you.

However, I find all that hard to ignore really. Not difficult to see a gap between the last group of players emerging; Olsson, (2008) Jason Lowe, Hanley, Jones, Hoilett, Henley (2012)- up to now (2015). How many other Myles Anderskins did we have knocking about we didn't know of?

It's not an excuse for the club, the brutal errors caused no end of first team troubles, I am in no doubt a full reset was needed from the academy also. When the Varneys and Browns (dross examples) where brought in, who (realistically) did we have coming from the academy at that point? I think if we saw all the names on the books after business closed that season (shebby and Kean) we'd be shocked by how many have disappeared off the face of the football planet.

Looking at the u18s results this season, we might be pushing on. I disagree with MMs assumption that we have very poor staff, let's see what they produce first.

Should GB sideline Evans, Williamson, Lowe, Guthrie, Akpan etc for Tomlinson? I think that's an example of the desperation for something to work on here. At least give the lad a season in the academy!

Should GB have given Raya the number one slot when we have a recently signed Steele? There are pros and cons to either point of view in that.

I like to see Raya given a chance personally but he looks shakey at times. I'm not sure how I'd handle it but he is an example that the academy is at least threatening to produce first team players still, even after lots of problems. It also goes in the face of the player value cynicism because surely Steele is becoming devalued? Rusting...

If I had one gripe or example of a misuse of the academy in the recent times, it was selling the prospect centre back to Brentford. That deal in itself is an example of the overall damage done.

The last prospect centre back we sold to United for 20m... Things change!

[mustard]

I think you're looking at that with rose tinted spectacles Mercerman. I well remember being at Gay Meadow in 84-85 when were thrashed 3-0 and the fans calling for Bob's head, having lost the two previous away games at Oldham and Brighton. We were top at Christmas if I remember and then it all fell apart in the second half of the season. The following campaign we avoided relegation on the last day of the season, again if I remember rightly our game had to be put back to the Monday because the pitch was waterlogged on the Saturday and so we knew it was win or bust on that Monday night. I seem to remember the players taking to the field with Elvis singing "It's now or never!" over the tannoy. The following season we were bottom at Christmas and Bob was reluctantly sacked by Bill Fox after weeks of pressure from the fans for a change. Bob was a very decent manager and a very decent man but let's not pretend that everything was a bed of roses. It seems to me that it was rather like today in some ways - the fans wanting the board to take action and replace the manager - some things never change.

Thanks for the insight Parson. Before my time, so always nice to hear Rovers tales of old.

[DE.]

Derby should be top of this league but they arent even with that squad.

Another club who have underestimated the importance of having a seasoned vet at the helm.

[mustard]

Aye certainly wasn't all nicey nicey, I remember chants of Saxton out and mates dad telling us to get up LBR back to the car after we were heading down Bolton road to watch a protest. Must have been around this time and it all seemed a lot more tasty than it did 3 years ago under that tool even though we only had about 6k fans ! I recall being delighted Saxton had been sacked, feel a bit guilty now after age grants the wisdom to fully appreciate what he did. Main point is though he'd run out of steam and was taking us down so he just had to go no matter how hard it was for some to take. It's just football and at least these days they leave with a nice cheque as a thankyou.

And now I've thanked Parson, I have to thank you tomphil. Serves me right for replying before reading the entire thread, or else I'd have limited this to one post!

It's funny how the talk from some is how us younger fans have been spoiled by the Jack Walker era in our demands for more than mid table mediocrity, and yet there were chants and protests for underachieving managers in a similar position long before Uncle Jack's money. I guess some things never change.

[Mercer]

Bobby Saxton had a thankless job following Howard Kendall.

However, he did remarkably well, under extreme financial circumstances, before a change was needed to freshen things up.

Bob has forgotten more about football than Bowyer ever knew.

Relatively, he had a fraction of the resources Bowyer has had. Bowyer has signed almost 40 players, had a £15million+strike force and still not challenged the top six and is limited by a £10,000 per week wage cap ! What Bob would have given for such riches.

Bob managed on a real shoestring exemplified by players going into the river at Pleasington to retrieve footballs during training.

IMV, Saxton had a plan, a real football man; Bowyer is simply a joke.

[martonrover]

As others have mentioned, Saxton had a tough act to follow when he took over from Howard Kendall in '81.

However, he built steadily and his era peaked with the near promotion miss of '85.

Towards the the end of that season our formed dipped worryingly and that trend continued for the whole of the following season resulting in the near miss from relegation.

The fans frustration of the near miss and subsequent struggle did boil over into protests, but they were aimed at the chairman as much as the manager, ( we failed to strengthen the squad for the promotion run in ).

Like most managers, Saxton had a shelf life and when we struggled again the following season it was obvious his time was up.

However, I agree with Jim Wilkinson's blog and Mercerman's opinion that Saxton did a great job overall on a ridiculously tight budget, (Rovers couldn't pay the phone bill on one occasion).

He built a good side on a pittance compared to what Bowyer's had to spend and only had a very small squad to work with.

The good thing about that was it led to a settled side and we didn't have all this ridiculous chopping and changing.

If it were a choice between Bowyer and Saxton, Bowyer would come third.

[Lancs Rover]

Would Saxton have survived as long in the age of social media and fan scrutiny? I don't think you can compare the two eras.

In those days, highlights of Rovers on TV was a relative rarity. If you didn't go to the game, talking to those who did down the pub or waiting for tomorrow's papers was how you got most of your info.

It was a slow burn for a manager compared to today.

[Stuart]

When the Varneys and Browns (dross examples) where brought in, who (realistically) did we have coming from the academy at that point? I

Would Forrester or Mahoney have been worse than Brown or Varney?

[AllRoverAsia]

Would Saxton have survived as long in the age of social media and fan scrutiny? I don't think you can compare the two eras.

In those days, highlights of Rovers on TV was a relative rarity. If you didn't go to the game, talking to those who did down the pub or waiting for tomorrow's papers was how you got most of your info.

It was a slow burn for a manager compared to today.

We got more real news from the newspapers and radio then than we do from all the forms of media today

[JBiz]

Would Forrester or Mahoney have been worse than Brown or Varney?

One of them has spent the past 2 years with a huge leg injury and both of them have never really experienced playing above 4th tier.

So yea, could've been even worse, and ultimately damaging for the rest of their careers.

Only difference being that both Varney and Brown had experience being promoted from this division but hardly lived up to it.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

As others have mentioned, Saxton had a tough act to follow when he took over from Howard Kendall in '81.

However, he built steadily and his era peaked with the near promotion miss of '85.

Towards the the end of that season our formed dipped worryingly and that trend continued for the whole of the following season resulting in the near miss from relegation.

The fans frustration of the near miss and subsequent struggle did boil over into protests, but they were aimed at the chairman as much as the manager, ( we failed to strengthen the squad for the promotion run in ).

Like most managers, Saxton had a shelf life and when we struggled again the following season it was obvious his time was up.

However, I agree with Jim Wilkinson's blog and Mercerman's opinion that Saxton did a great job overall on a ridiculously tight budget, (Rovers couldn't pay the phone bill on one occasion).

He built a good side on a pittance compared to what Bowyer's had to spend and only had a very small squad to work with.

The good thing about that was it led to a settled side and we didn't have all this ridiculous chopping and changing.

If it were a choice between Bowyer and Saxton, Bowyer would come third.

Ok - trying to remember - one of Saxtons first things was to sell Jim Arnold to Everton for £210k - players he bought were Gennoe , Miller and Bell ? Following season Randall for 40k. Huge sums of money for Rovers at the time.

[Parsonblue]

Would Saxton have survived as long in the age of social media and fan scrutiny? I don't think you can compare the two eras.

In those days, highlights of Rovers on TV was a relative rarity. If you didn't go to the game, talking to those who did down the pub or waiting for tomorrow's papers was how you got most of your info.

It was a slow burn for a manager compared to today.

An excellent point mark. There is no comparison with then and now. I wonder how long the likes of Carey (first time round), or Marshall would have lasted in todays social media world and yet both were excellent managers.

[Parsonblue]

Bobby Saxton had a thankless job following Howard Kendall.

However, he did remarkably well, under extreme financial circumstances, before a change was needed to freshen things up.

Bob has forgotten more about football than Bowyer ever knew.

Relatively, he had a fraction of the resources Bowyer has had. Bowyer has signed almost 40 players, had a £15million+strike force and still not challenged the top six and is limited by a £10,000 per week wage cap ! What Bob would have given for such riches.

Bob managed on a real shoestring exemplified by players going into the river at Pleasington to retrieve footballs during training.

IMV, Saxton had a plan, a real football man; Bowyer is simply a joke.

I agree he was a good football man and yet, for all the positives you mention - and I would agree with them - he was still disliked by the fans during his last twelve months at the club and pressure was put on Fox to get rid of him. If you don't win, fans aren't happy and that never changes. United fans wanted rid of Ferguson before they won their first title under him - unhappy fans is the one consistent in football.

[bob fleming]

Bob managed on a real shoestring exemplified by players going into the river at Pleasington to retrieve footballs during training.

Saxton himself went into the river for a ball once, was carried down stream and could have drowned!

Without descending into a Python sketch (You think you have it bad? back in the day the first team squad, all 10 of them, lived in a shoe box on Nuttall Street) it is fair to say that the club didn't have a pot to wee in back then. I can confidently say that Saxton got the most out of every single player at his disposal. Not only that you only have to listen to those who played for him from that time to hear the affection they had for him and the club.

But yes, it wasn't all a bed of roses back then. No way Jose. Every manager has their shelf life and when you're sat bottom of the table, with no sign of improvement, then it's inevitable what happens next.

Well, most of the time anyway.

[Madon]

It looks like Van Gaal has agreed to let James Wilson leave on loan to a championship club.

We should be all over that, but looks like Derby are the front runners.

[Rover_Shaun]

One of them has spent the past 2 years with a huge leg injury and both of them have never really experienced playing above 4th tier.

So yea, could've been even worse, and ultimately damaging for the rest of their careers.

Only difference being that both Varney and Brown had experience being promoted from this division but hardly lived up to it.

Brown was promoted with Sunderland back in the annuls (2004/05) when getting out of bed didn't put him in traction but who was Varney promoted from the championship with? I recall him playing for "newly promoted" Blackpool (2010/11). In fact it was widely publicised that Blackpool were the only Premierleague side with a player from a lower league on loan

[DE.]

It looks like Van Gaal has agreed to let James Wilson leave on loan to a championship club.

We should be all over that, but looks like Derby are the front runners.

With the amount of clubs interested (a dozen or more, apparently) you have to assume there will be a fee attached.