[Archived] Rovers V Bolton 28Th August

[Parsonblue]

scenario time

would you rather be say 12 points adrift in October with Bowyer

or

would you rather sack bowyer now and be 2 points off a play off spot

**DISCLAIMER**

Before the usual culprits jump down my throat its not truth , its not fact & its not 100%

At the moment we are not adrift so it's an academic point. Clearly, nobody would want to see us go 12 points adrift of the safety point before acting. As I don't believe that the present players are going to get us promoted the play-offs are very much an academic argument. I honestly believe that for Forest and ourselves the embargo means mid-table is probably a realistic finishing position so staying in contact with the clubs in the bottom half of the table is how I would judge when and if a change was needed.

[RevidgeBlue]

At the moment we are not adrift so it's an academic point. Clearly, nobody would want to see us go 12 points adrift of the safety point before acting. As I don't believe that the present players are going to get us promoted the play-offs are very much an academic argument. I honestly believe that for Forest and ourselves the embargo means mid-table is probably a realistic finishing position so staying in contact with the clubs in the bottom half of the table is how I would judge when and if a change was needed.

Once again I'm not sure you can use being completely cut adrift as the sole criteria for making a change Parson. You need to try and take the possibility of going down completely out of the equation as best you can.

Using that logic, if it came to the last match of the season and we were one point above the relegation zone and another three or four Clubs were maybe in a similar position the decision to keep GB would be vindicated as a sensible and correct one whereas imo it would have been shown to be an incorrect one and our fate would be completely in the lap of the gods.

[mustard]

Reliably informed last Wednesday at the BFC/BRFC golf day by that it was 10m plus 4m possible add ons. Unfair to judge on one performance of course but it's still a lot of money given his showing on Friday night. The ex player who disclosed that also agrees with me (and just about every other Manager in the land) that JR doesn't possess Premier League quality.

btw GB is criticised very unfairly and unfortunately frequently on a personal basis too. His defenders frequently cite him being saddled with expensive dollopers, having to reduce the bill, outside interference, embargo etc but has anybody ever thought that he has to play a striker that he doesn't really want? Put another way would he be running a club under a crippling embargo if he had been allowed to sell Rhodes to Hull last season?

Oh, have you dropped in on the PL Managers' Association's monthly fondu party to ask them their opinions on JR again, Gord?

I have no doubt you're an intelligent man, so I find it remarkable that you keep peddling the same line over and over. Yes, no PL manager's are willing to gamble on Rhodes for £14mill. Put him on sale for Rudy's or King's price and watch the bids come in. You're naive or deluded if you think that Rhodes wouldn't be plying his trade in the PL if he was made available for £6mill. Not saying he would cut it at that level, as none of us know, but would someone gamble on him for such a low price? Of course. As for King and Gestede, are they PL quality? They have their physical stats, but technically both are miles behind Rhodes. Like most players who fail to cut it at the top level, they are lacking in key areas.

As for the Rhodes non-sale and the embargo, don't know if you're aware but we would still have cleared the loss limit, even with the sale of JR, rendering us embargoed (unless the FA would have given us special dispensation ). Also, you fail to take into account that we'd have had to buy a replacement and unless we opted for a bargain bin freebie, we'd have had to spend some money on that.

I also struggle to see things so black and white as you Gord, it's all speculation in hindsight and there is no guarantee the sale of Rhodes would have had us performing any better, and taking 21 goals and 4 assists out of the equation has the potential to go worse than better IMO. We'd have lost his goals and would have relied on someone else to fill the void and with Bowyer at the helm and a goal-shy midfield, I wouldn't have been so confident. Yes, we hypothetically could have done better without him, yet we also could have done much much worse, and since Gestede and King pushed to move on from Bowyer's Blackburn, I dread to think what our side would look like with all three of them gone.

EDIT: as for the constant referral from some as to why Rhodes was bad business, I must ask again, what would have happened had JR not signed? You readily admit the crooks were running the show at the time, so why would you want to give them another chance at spending that £8mill? Would the £8mill have been reinvested by Kean and agents on some better quality players to add to the bloated squad of Etuhus, Bests and Murphys (which cost a pretty penny I might add)? If we had pocketed the £8mill instead, what would have kept us up that season? Would Kean et al's tactics have been enough to fire us further up the table with Best up top? When criticising the purchase of Rhodes, it's easy to forget the situation at the time (despite readily admitting it was going on) and I thank God they signed Rhodes instead of another host of Bests/Etuhus/Murphys/Formicas/Portugeezers.

[broadsword]

A crippling embargo?

Bloody hell, how many players would he have signed without this crippling embargo?

[LDRover]

Why can Bowyer not be measured on his own criteria? Top 6 I believe he said before the season.

[Gav]

Of course other factors play a part, but revision of history has nothing to do with that, and you even have an example of it in your post:

"the biggest factor for the past couple of seasons is the dumbing down of the playing side "

We only entered an embargo in January and only started selling players as a result of that this summer.

In the last two seasons Venky's have paid off dressing room cancers like Orr, Best, Etuhu, Murphy, etc and allowed Bowyer to bring in the likes of Duffy, Marshall, Steele, Cairney, Conway, Evans, Gestede and Baptiste whilst rejecting huge bids for Rhodes. I'd say our team last season was the strongest since we've been in the Championship, and with a better manager could have easily taken Ipswich's spot in 6th.

The club has been talking about FFP for almost 2 seasons now DE and supposedly cutting its cloth accordingly, which is why we've spent little or no money on players during that time and relied on free transfers,100k here and there and loan deals.

The constant comparisons with Ipswich are way off the mark to, Big Mick has been in football management for over 20yrs, he should be better than Bowyer and Ipswich are in the same league as us and probably will be for a while unless we go down.

A crippling embargo?

Bloody hell, how many players would he have signed without this crippling embargo?

Quality not quantity is required Bryan.

Bunkum!

This is the kind of stupid comment (sorry Gav, but bringing Mourinho into any argument is crass stupidity) that is keeping Bowyer out of a tracksuit and in a blazer.

The point being that you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

The side gets worse by the year because of the owners not the manager, not everything is Bowyers fault like I said.

[USABlue]

It's quite simple I know what I'm talking about Simon. You question my judgement how about yours? You really rated John Curtis who left us for a career tramping around the lower divisions and better still you tried to convince us all that we should have binned off Brad Friedel in 2004!

btw it's currently Delfouneso 2 Rhodes 0 isn't it?

My 2 cents, I thought delphy wasn't too bad early on. Bad judgement with a shot, but lively and working hard. Just looked to me like his legs wefe gone pretty early. Too early for me to smack him down.

I remember the Curtis thing lol. Going back a bit are we not. I can't even remember who it was replaced JC.

[aletheia]

Mustard

Nice post.

If we make top 6 this season, I'll show my arse at a home game. Confident nobody will have to endure that particular sight. Mind you, it would add to the entertainment value along with the balls that are skied onto the Walker Steel stand, the stretcher trolley, the hapless chickens and er...no that's it.

[RevidgeBlue]

The point being that you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Unless you're Ken Furphy, Gordon Lee, Jim Smith, Howard Kendall, Don Mackay, Mark Hughes, Sam Allardyce, Ian Holloway, Sean Dyche, Mark Warburton, Eddie Howe etc etc.

You might be unlucky and pick up an Iley or an Ince but I think most would feel it's a gamble worth taking.

[Al]

The club has been talking about FFP for almost 2 seasons now DE and supposedly cutting its cloth accordingly, which is why we've spent little or no money on players during that time and relied on free transfers,100k here and there and loan deals.

The constant comparisons with Ipswich are way off the mark to, Big Mick has been in football management for over 20yrs, he should be better than Bowyer and Ipswich are in the same league as us and probably will be for a while unless we go down.

Quality not quantity is required Bryan.

The point being that you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

The side gets worse by the year because of the owners not the manager, not everything is Bowyers fault like I said.

Not everything is Bowyer's fault as you say but signing players, picking the team and tactics are and they are all abysmal. A new manager would at least give us a chance of correcting those.

[Gav]

Unless you're Ken Furphy, Gordon Lee, Jim Smith, Howard Kendall, Don Mackay, Mark Hughes, Sam Allardyce, Ian Holloway, Sean Dyche, Mark Warburton, Eddie Howe etc etc.

You might be unlucky and pick up an Iley or an Ince but I think most would feel it's a gamble worth taking.

I'd wager hardly any of our current first team squad would get into any of the sides managed by the above and thats telling in my opinion.

I'd sack Bowyer, make no mistake about that, but its not just Gary Bowyers fault we're heading for league 1.

[DE.]

The club has been talking about FFP for almost 2 seasons now DE and supposedly cutting its cloth accordingly, which is why we've spent little or no money on players during that time and relied on free transfers,100k here and there and loan deals.

The club may have been talking about FFP for 2 seasons Gav but we certainly have not been cutting our cloth accordingly. If we had then we wouldn't be in this position in the first place!

As for little or no money, sorry, but not having that either. How much in terms of wages have been spent on the 35+ players Bowyer has brought in? Not to mention the likes of Marshall and Duffy who were both over £1m.

You're right about McCarthy though. Experience is crucial and it's what we've needed ever since Venky's binned Allardyce. The difference between Bowyer and a proper manager is laid bare when you look at how Ipswich have started the season despite only spending £350k themselves and also selling a top player in Mings for £8M. That's why the comparison is relevant and further proves a change of manager could have a huge impact on our fortunes this season.

[Stuart]

The point being that you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

The side gets worse by the year because of the owners not the manager, not everything is Bowyers fault like I said.

Hold up. This is the squad that Bowyer himself assembled before the embargo, and got credit for. If it's not up to it's down to him. I know people don't like the comparison (although it's better than Jose) but I bet McCarthy would have loved to have had the 'terrible' backing that Bowyer has. He'd probably have done much better with it.

[broadsword]

Quality not quantity is required Bryan.

Sadly, I believe this was also an issue before the embargo.

What I was trying to suggest is that you don't need millions to build a decent team.

[OJRovers]

We missed the boat last season. A half decent manager would have got that squad in the top 6 (or very close). Going to be difficult whoever comes in now.

[RevidgeBlue]

I'd wager hardly any of our current first team squad would get into any of the sides managed by the above and thats telling in my opinion.

I'd sack Bowyer, make no mistake about that, but its not just Gary Bowyers fault we're heading for league 1.

Was thinking about that before GAV. I'd wager a good number of the squad from last season would have got in Don Mackay's sides. Ditto the managers before him.

[Stand & Deliver]

100%.

Don't get sucked in DE. Waiting until it's too late is part of the strategy (and when I say strategy, I mean in a Bowyer trying to mastermind a draw kind of way, rather than anything more conspiratorial). At that point the tune will change to "who would come in now", "there's no point making a change now, it's too late", and who could forget old faithful "we are where we are".

Those backing Bowyer are those who like the guy personally and think he's doing his best at an honest job, and they don't care if we are relegated. They will still be there and can bemoan the fact that another few thousand "not real fans" have deserted us. It could be argued that real fans are leaving because they are sick of being ignored whilst having to watch worse and worse fayre every match, listening to the same five scripted phrases.

Surely there is something at Rovers still worth fighting for? Shouting "Bowyer Out", if that's how the next few weeks pan out, should be seen as the desperate cries of people who still want the best for Rovers rather than ingrates to be shouted down by the (fan-blaming) hardcore: "just get behind the lads FFS". A passionless, status quo-craving, don't-make-a-fuss cliché in support of a passionless manager.

There comes a time when one has to get behind the badge rather than those wearing it.

"FFS".

Bang on the money! I think some will be happy when we are relegated and back to the "status quo" of where we were pre Jack. No more glory hunters n all that. I care deeply about our club but some seem happy to have an afternoon out despite what the consequences are. Bowyer out!

[Stand & Deliver]

100%.

Don't get sucked in DE. Waiting until it's too late is part of the strategy (and when I say strategy, I mean in a Bowyer trying to mastermind a draw kind of way, rather than anything more conspiratorial). At that point the tune will change to "who would come in now", "there's no point making a change now, it's too late", and who could forget old faithful "we are where we are".

Those backing Bowyer are those who like the guy personally and think he's doing his best at an honest job, and they don't care if we are relegated. They will still be there and can bemoan the fact that another few thousand "not real fans" have deserted us. It could be argued that real fans are leaving because they are sick of being ignored whilst having to watch worse and worse fayre every match, listening to the same five scripted phrases.

Surely there is something at Rovers still worth fighting for? Shouting "Bowyer Out", if that's how the next few weeks pan out, should be seen as the desperate cries of people who still want the best for Rovers rather than ingrates to be shouted down by the (fan-blaming) hardcore: "just get behind the lads FFS". A passionless, status quo-craving, don't-make-a-fuss cliché in support of a passionless manager.

There comes a time when one has to get behind the badge rather than those wearing it.

"FFS".

Bang on the money! I think some will be happy when we are relegated and back to the "status quo" of where we were pre Jack. No more glory hunters n all that. I care deeply about our club but some seem happy to have an afternoon out despite what the consequences are. Bowyer out!

[AdamRochina]

Hanley and Duffy looked a lot better, also with each other .. seemed to be more of an understanding and no bickering

Henley looked really good against a tricky player like Wellington

Spur..I like the guy he's a top pro but he's weak defensively and only offers long throws...I wonder if the ollson rumour is true about him getting a bonus or something through appearances

Rhodes looked rusty although did get into some great positions to finish

Delfie. ..well the lad does try, just dosent have that much quality

Conway ..class above every single one on the pitch..little gem he is

Marshall...did he play?

Evans and lowe ..woeful. .Both lose possession so cheaply and can't offer anything in attack

Koita. .Has the touch of a donkey but he does look strong and quick and makes things happen..like the look of him

Barrow .. not seen much of him but is fast ..needs to start a game

[USABlue]

I'd wager hardly any of our current first team squad would get into any of the sides managed by the above and thats telling in my opinion.

I'd sack Bowyer, make no mistake about that, but its not just Gary Bowyers fault we're heading for league 1.

I think quite a few of them would bit I believe their contributions would be much better.

Gordon Lee was one who impressed me perhaps the most. Put together a side with journeymen but knew exactly why he was getti g those players and how to mold them into a unit.

Kendall knew how to make one goal win matches. Solid stead methodical what Id give to have a boss like either of those.

[mustard]

It's easy to look back and say "none of these players would have got into <insert manager name>'s side", yet it must be taken into account that these managers had the team playing collectively and maximised the potential of the individual players. We look back more fondly at players who were a part of success and the manager has a direct bearing on this. Whilst some of our players look like duds under Bowyer, I am sure there are plenty of players from the past who would be wasted under his stewardship and no doubt some of these previous managers would have the current crop looking better as both a group and as individuals.

[Feniscowles Blue]

I think the form of Marshall is particularly worrying. Our most gifted player doesn't seem motivated at the start of the season . Terrific management

[USABlue]

Barrow .. not seen much of him but is fast ..needs to start a game

Would help if we actually gave him the ball once in a while too

[Gav]

You don't need money to assemble a decent squad as Bryan correctly points out, but what you do need is experience, a decent back room team, structure and everything else that's goes with running a good football club and frankly everything we don't have at Ewood these days.

So whilst I agree Bowyer needs sacking, I know he's just part of the problem and replacing him won't improve the fortunes of the club enough to get us out of this league.

[Hasta]

Hold up. This is the squad that Bowyer himself assembled before the embargo, and got credit for. If it's not up to it's down to him. I know people don't like the comparison (although it's better than Jose) but I bet McCarthy would have loved to have had the 'terrible' backing that Bowyer has. He'd probably have done much better with it.

Exactly. Plus some people list Bowyers 'eye for a player' as a positive when it suits their viewpoint. However when we are bottom 3, it's the worst team in 30+ years. Well he brought in most of them.

You don't need money to assemble a decent squad as Bryan correctly points out, but what you do need is experience, a decent back room team, structure and everything else that's goes with running a good football club and frankly everything we don't have at Ewood these days.

So whilst I agree Bowyer needs sacking, I know he's just part of the problem and replacing him won't improve to fortunes of the club enough to get us out of this league.

It's getting out of it via the wrong end that concerns me at this moment in time.