[Archived] Is This The Begining Of The End Of The Eu As We Know It

[Husky]

How can Germany possibly know if the influx contains extremists who could wreak havoc once established in European countries.

They simply don't.

A small island, over-populated, extreme opposite religious factions, resources running out. Hell the future is bleak!!!

[jim mk2]

Try this data then:

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.POP.DNST

It shows we are one of the more highly crowded countries in the world, let alone Europe! Will you answer the data of a neutral source?

You're a moderator now. Good moderators should neither be seen nor heard.

[joey_big_nose]

Some great posts here, lots of good data.

Personally my stance is immigration is a good and necessary thing, but it should be managed. From the BBC article this really stood out:-

"It projects that Germany's population will shrink from 81.3 million in 2013 to 70.8 million in 2060, whereas the UK's will rise from 64.1 million to 80.1 million."

That's really striking and something I for one hadn't really absorbed.

It's another example of the challenges the EU faces. It is similar to the currency issue where different countries suffer in different ways because a shared euro is a compromise that satisfys no one (Ie. Greece really needs devaluation to kickstart the economy, while Germany needs a greater valuation to make imports cheaper) the same seems to be happening with immigration. South Europe desperately needs to slow immigrtion while Germany needs to speed it up. As the opening post says this is going to really challenge EU freedom of movement rules.

I do feel with the migration and currency issues Europe is at a cross roads. Either significant strengthening of central government has to happen or the Euro and migration rules need to be abandoned and the EU returns to being more of a Free Trade body.

My money is on UK, Denmark, Sweden and maybe Netherlands opting out to be merely free trade partners while France, Belgium, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Eastern Europe go down a route to greater integration with stronger direct governance and a much enhanced role for the European Parliament and Presidency where they are the front line legislators. Tax reform, civil service, fiscal powers, migration controls will need to be centralised.

Interesting times. In sentiment I would love to see a strong European Union, I think it has been an incredibly good thing in many ways, that has played an huge role in uniting and allying Europe to a way unimaginable forty years ago. However the EU is increasingly in dangerous waters and being on the peripherary limits our risk.

They simply don't.

A small island, over-populated, extreme opposite religious factions, resources running out. Hell the future is bleak!!!

Don't understand this? Extreme opposite religious factions?

[Mike E]

I'm open to Syrian refugees who can prove they are refugees because THAT is the humanitarian part of all this. We should be putting refugees at the front of the queue to Europe (and if we must take our share, then so be it, it is our duty as their fellow men).

However, ISIS did threaten to 'exploit the European migrant crisis to infiltrate Europe' only last month. Remember that map of where they hope to be by 2020 as seen on the BBC? Spain, Italy and much of Europe?

They are a very real danger and I suspect this crisis is helping them towards that goal. As such, the PM (and all European leaders) must not be soft. If a supposed refugee has no proof of being Syrian or being directly displaced from Syria, turn them away.

[otto man]

It's certainly going to be very interesting. It's worth noting some points on this:

The more in depth television reporting makes the point Germany expects to RECEIVE 800,000 asylum applications this year. I imagine a huge number will be accepted but this 800,000 figure isn't quite the same as taking them in.

Germany has a falling birthdate and an ageing population used to a high standard of living. The country is going to need a young workforce and it would appear many of the migrants/refugees are well educated and qualified individuals.

Events of the last few weeks could well have an impact on the Conservative EU referendum.

Really? Source?

[Audax]

Some of the refugees are in need; some are to be wary of: http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/260052/here-are-some-adorable-syrian-refugee-thugs-you-daniel-greenfield

These guys don't look like real down-and-outers.

75% of the refugees are males; probably young men at that.

You know, I wonder if there is some discussion behind the scenes, "Some of these guys were in ISIS, we get them in the right spot."

So, I saw a map, they travel through Turkey and go into Hungary, Hungary has put up the razor wire, I also heard they may well be building a stronger wall. What would happen if the refugees just weren't able to get through?

[Audax]

I'm in another forum and one person from the UK wrote this:

My town is filling up with strangers - not just refugees but also people who are not refugees.

Please pray not only for the next two months but also thereafter.

Sorry I shall not say what town it is.

I think we all and our homes and streets and buildings risk being horrendously vulnerable in a great number of ways.

Can people relate to this or is this just an odd statement.

[Mike E]

Some of the refugees are in need; some are to be wary of: http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/260052/here-are-some-adorable-syrian-refugee-thugs-you-daniel-greenfield

These guys don't look like real down-and-outers.

75% of the refugees are males; probably young men at that.

You know, I wonder if there is some discussion behind the scenes, "Some of these guys were in ISIS, we get them in the right spot."

So, I saw a map, they travel through Turkey and go into Hungary, Hungary has put up the razor wire, I also heard they may well be building a stronger wall. What would happen if the refugees just weren't able to get through?

One thing I object to is this insistence that refugees are poor. If Russia were to bomb Britain and we fled, I would be a refugee but I'd still have my decent clothes and a Samsung s5...

[Guest]

One thing I object to is this insistence that refugees are poor. If Russia were to bomb Britain and we fled, I would be a refugee but I'd still have my decent clothes and a Samsung s5...

Yes, but you come from one of the richest countries in the world where it's normal to have those sorts of things. I'm not sure that's the case in Sudan or Syria. You'd need some stats to backup what you're saying, but I suspect there is no traceable data to quantify it one way or the other.

[ultrablue]

One thing I object to is this insistence that refugees are poor. If Russia were to bomb Britain and we fled, I would be a refugee but I'd still have my decent clothes and a Samsung s5...

That's right I suppose. But what bearing does that have on your life as a refugee? You are limited to the stuff you can carry and you are always vulnerable to all the pitfalls of homelessness in a foreign country.

[DE.]

I'm in another forum and one person from the UK wrote this:

Can people relate to this or is this just an odd statement.

Sounds like scaremongering to me Audax. A vague reference with no facts and no way to even check to see if it's true or not.

[Gav]

I'm in another forum and one person from the UK wrote this:

Can people relate to this or is this just an odd statement.

Some towns on the East Coast where UKIP is on the rise can surely relate to this. We saw many reports leading up to the election talking about hardly hearing an English voice when shopping in the town centres of some of these towns and personally I had sympathy for them.

It's very easy for people not living in these places to label the locals racist or intolerant, but we don't live there, I think it's an issue, I really do, but I'm not buying it's a risk, that's bunkum and scaremongering.

[Mike E]

Yes, but you come from one of the richest countries in the world where it's normal to have those sorts of things. I'm not sure that's the case in Sudan or Syria. You'd need some stats to backup what you're saying, but I suspect there is no traceable data to quantify it one way or the other.

My point is not to judge a refugee by their possessions but by whether they are genuinely Syrian and seeking refuge. Nothing else matters in that regard.

[Husky]

Don't understand this? Extreme opposite religious factions?

Yes as in different religions simply cannot live side by side and rarely have done. A problem that will only get worse as the playing field levels out.

[Mike E]

Yes as in different religions simply cannot live side by side and rarely have done. A problem that will only get worse as the playing field levels out.

They absolutely CAN, it just needs the newer religion to integrate slowly.

If religions couldn't live side by side, how does one explain London's vast multiculturalism?

[yoda]

One thing I object to is this insistence that refugees are poor. If Russia were to bomb Britain and we fled, I would be a refugee but I'd still have my decent clothes and a Samsung s5...

Hitler tried to bomb us into submission, did our parents/grandparents upsticks and leave,

No they stayed and whupped his arse for him.

Good example I would say

[Husky]

They absolutely CAN, it just needs the newer religion to integrate slowly.

If religions couldn't live side by side, how does one explain London's vast multiculturalism?

History (and the present) would say otherwise. "Multiculturalism" where religion is concerned is largely a myth where others are tolerated mostly through gritted teeth.

[Mike E]

Hitler tried to bomb us into submission, did our parents/grandparents upsticks and leave,

No they stayed and whupped his arse for him.

Good example I would say

True enough, but I was talking about hypothetically being a refugee and that the brand of clothes or possessions shouldn't have any bearing on that status.

[yoda]

True enough, but I was talking about hypothetically being a refugee and that the brand of clothes or possessions shouldn't have any bearing on that status.

yep I know, just making the point about how Great Britain deals with an aggressor and how the collective minds used to work in our country.

Sometime in the not to distant future the UK will have to rescue Europe again

[Mike E]

yep I know, just making the point about how Great Britain deals with an aggressor and how the collective minds used to work in our country.

Sometime in the not to distant future the UK will have to rescue Europe again

I agree tbh. And that will be the time we need a nationalist at the helm. I believe that the ISIS threat (even if he didn't refer to it) will aid UKIP votes.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34171161

With Germany saying they expect to take nearly a million refuges/immigrants in who will then have the right to travel within the Shengen zone, is this going to prompt the newer countries to impose restrictions on freedom of movement which is apparently a given and cannot be changed if a country wishes to remain in the EU.

How can Germany possibly know if the influx contains extremists who could wreak havoc once established in European countries.

The migrant issue will kick the anti-EU message into overdrive, UKIP will be rubbing their hands with glee.

[yoda]

They may well be rubbing their hands with glee but the reality is the European borders have been opened to the likes of ISIS etc.

It is becoming obvious that a federal Europe will not work, it should just be an economic alliance.

[yoda]

Looks like Cameron is starting to win with the EU

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34256969

[RibbleValleyRover]

Problem is you have so many different types of migrants involved here:

- Those are genuinely fleeing places like Syria because they were facing death otherwise if they did not get out quick.

- Those that were safe for now in the various camps but decided to move on.

- Those that are economic migrants, looking to move to Europe for economic reasons. Some of these will have used the chaotic situation to try and benefit themselves and their families and have come from countries that are not undergoing turmoil.

- Those that have their own agenda such as ISIS trying to infiltrate western countries to set up terrorist cells/networks. This is one of the points that for some reason is not being talked about, there are bound to be people migrating here that plan ultimately to do people harm in another country.

It's all one big mess really, finding places to house all these people and provide a general standard of living but at the same time identify those that are genuine in terms of their motivation.

[yoda]

It's now starting to kick off in Germany with the different "immigrant" groups fighting with each other

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34380438