[Archived] Gary Bowyer

[DE.]

Difference being that we were winning games without playing particularly well, the sign of a good side, whereas under Bowyer we're losing games that we should be winning.

Under Allardyce, all we ever heard was that results are all that matter, performances and entertainment come second. You can't argue with four wins out of seven, even if it was Kean in charge.

I was unfortunately at a few of those games and trust me, that season under Kean would not have ended in promotion or the playoffs. Kean resigned just as the wheels began to come off again, leaving the next manager with a situation which appeared much better than it actually was.

[K-Hod]

Rovers need to be all over that.

Another over-promoted coach with limited experience as a manager, we've a good track record with those...

[mustard]

Personally, I disagree with Gav's view on Sherwood. He did a very good job at Spurs in the short time he was there IMO and with a team full of egos. At Villa, he's at a club who've been a sinking ship for a while. Did well last season, started poorly this season. A mammoth task to take up IMO and I feel they'll struggle regardless, unless they had a Big Sam in charge.

As for Rovers, can Sherwood be any worse than Bowyer? I don't think so. He could be exactly what we need or he could not, but I don't see him doing worse than Bowyer. Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather get an experienced manager à la Pearson but it isn't a realistic notion.

For me, sticking with Bowyer is only going to damage the club further and a change is needed ASAP before we fall into the lower league abyss.

[Amo]

We really weren't though. I remember in one game Danny Murphy got a deckchair out. We won but it wouldn't have been long before managers realised what they were up against instead of turning up to defend a point.

Possibly, booth, but that's all speculative. How many people expected us to be 3rd in the league when Kean left? I think most of us thought we'd be in the kind of position we are now. Rhodes, Kazim-Richards, Rochina, Nuno Gomes, Scott Dann, Paul Robinson, Morten Pedersen, Martin Olsson, Gael Givet... promotion sides have been built on less.

[T J Hooker]

villa(like spurs) is a bit of a basket case of a club when it comes to managers, I wont really judge Sherwoods managerial ability on him leaving there, i think hed be better of at a club like ours where he has total control(all be it with no money to spend and an embargo)

that said he wouldnt be my 1st choice, the other villa reject lambert(who was doing great as a manager before going to crappy villa) would be ahead of him or even one of the other villa rejects Mcleish or O'Neil would be a big improvement over the youth team coach we've had running our club for the last few years.

[mustard]

Possibly, booth, but that's all speculative. How many people expected us to be 3rd in the league when Kean left? I think most of us thought we'd be in the kind of position we are now. Rhodes, Kazim-Richards, Rochina, Nuno Gomes, Scott Dann, Paul Robinson, Morten Pedersen, Martin Olsson, Gael Givet... promotion sides have been built on less.

I see where you're coming from, but I felt the points Kean picked up were undeserved and wouldn't have continued. It wasn't a case of grinding out results but simply luck IMO. It was a matter of time before it completely went to sh*t. He knew it, and that's why he walked at the time he did, to try and salvage some face from it all. It didn't work and that's why he's stuck in Brunei. Big Sam summed it up in his book with the comments RE Kean as a manager and a person. Hence why no English team will touch him now.

I guess what you're trying to say is that, as a manager/tactician, Bowyer is no better than Kean (perhaps worse?). I am with you on that and the fact he isn't as reprehensible a character is the only reason the fans haven't turned on him en masse.

[DE.]

Personally, I disagree with Gav's view on Sherwood. He did a very good job at Spurs in the short time he was there IMO and with a team full of egos. At Villa, he's at a club who've been a sinking ship for a while. Did well last season, started poorly this season. A mammoth task to take up IMO and I feel they'll struggle regardless, unless they had a Big Sam in charge.

As for Rovers, can Sherwood be any worse than Bowyer? I don't think so. He could be exactly what we need or he could not, but I don't see him doing worse than Bowyer. Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather get an experienced manager à la Pearson but it isn't a realistic notion.

For me, sticking with Bowyer is only going to damage the club further and a change is needed ASAP before we fall into the lower league abyss.

I don't think Sherwood would come near us these days anyway. Has a very high opinion of himself, rightly or wrongly, and will be aiming for another Prem team or possibly a well-off Championship team rather than what's left of Rovers.

Besides of which, tactically Sherwood has been shown up plenty of times. Isn't the main gripe with Bowyer that tactically he hasn't got what it takes? Bringing in another tactically poor manager is only going to keep us in the same position we're in now. Not to mention Sherwood's straight-talking in the media tends to alienate his players, which we can ill afford with such a thin squad quality-wise.

[mustard]

I don't think Sherwood would come near us these days anyway. Has a very high opinion of himself, rightly or wrongly, and will be aiming for another Prem team or possibly a well-off Championship team rather than what's left of Rovers.

Besides of which, tactically Sherwood has been shown up plenty of times. Isn't the main gripe with Bowyer that tactically he hasn't got what it takes? Bringing in another tactically poor manager is only going to keep us in the same position we're in now. Not to mention Sherwood's straight-talking in the media tends to alienate his players, which we can ill afford with such a thin squad quality-wise.

I'm not necessarily championing him. Just doubt he could be any worse than Bowyer.

[chaddyrovers]

They have been very quiet, i have not heard anything with substance for a number of weeks.

Whilst listening to QA at ewood it appears no one at Ewood has either.

They aint been for months.

I think they are following the advice of keep quiet and do nothing , which is poor advice seeing thats what they have done since they arrived.

I sense people in and around Ewood want changes but at present no-one is rocking that boat

This is the major problem.

You were right in the summer that we need a Statement of intent from the owners. We need them to come and say what the future plans.

and I think today the owners need to come out and make statement. if they are backing Bowyer then say so. we need some sort of communication from them.

I don't know who these people in and around Ewood Park as I don't know any of the Rovers hierarchy.

But would Shaw and Myers advise the owners to sack Bowyer? At the Q and A forum they mention that the had some of Venkys advisors over recently for a few weeks, does anybody know who these were?

[Amo]

Hello, mustard.

I see where you're coming from, but I felt the points Kean picked up were undeserved and wouldn't have continued.

Is that because Kean won those games or because you really believe it? Let's say that it wasn't Kean in charge but a different manager who won four out of seven games and then resigned. It's a given that fans wouldn't be as begrudging about those results.

It wasn't a case of grinding out results but simply luck IMO. It was a matter of time before it completely went to sh*t.

Well what defines grinding out a result? I thought it was picking up points without playing at the top of your game? Isn't that exactly what we did? I'm not sure you can attribute that to fluke, otherwise you could say that our current plight under Bowyer is just down to rotten luck.

He knew it, and that's why he walked at the time he did, to try and salvage some face from it all.

I don't think any of us know the exact motivations for Kean's resignation. There's someone on here who believes he was pushed.

It didn't work and that's why he's stuck in Brunei. Big Sam summed it up in his book with the comments RE Kean as a manager and a person. Hence why no English team will touch him now.

I'm not sure that Allardyce's personal feelings towards Kean are relevant to the discussion, but there are plenty of managers with more successful CVs than Kean who haven't been able to find work again. Alan Curbishley, Glenn Hoddle, and David O'Leary spring to mind.

I guess what you're trying to say is that, as a manager/tactician, Bowyer is no better than Kean (perhaps worse?). I am with you on that and the fact he isn't as reprehensible a character is the only reason the fans haven't turned on him en masse.

I'm not even going that far. I'm saying that based on the evidence alone, that was our best chance of promotion. It's the only time that we've started the season like promotion contenders, and I think we had the squad to do it.

[Baz]

This is the major problem.

You were right in the summer that we need a Statement of intent from the owners. We need them to come and say what the future plans.

and I think today the owners need to come out and make statement. if they are backing Bowyer then say so. we need some sort of communication from them.

I don't know who these people in and around Ewood Park as I don't know any of the Rovers hierarchy.

But would Shaw and Myers advise the owners to sack Bowyer? At the Q and A forum they mention that the had some of Venkys advisors over recently for a few weeks, does anybody know who these were?

The advisors they sent over from India, where to evaluate what the advisors in the uk (Shaw, Myers etc) where doing. The obvious answer is to employ competent uk based advisors. For people with such a large business, they really do show a lack of nous at times.

[Athlete]

yet another sly comment cos I don't agree your point of view.

I make my points and back them up.

The facts are 2 wins all season not a point of view

The annoying thing on here is some still can't see the wood for the trees with competent owners Bowyer Shaw and Myers wouldn't be anywhere near BRFC

[yoda]

They have been very quiet, i have not heard anything with substance for a number of weeks.

Whilst listening to QA at ewood it appears no one at Ewood has either.

They aint been for months.

I think they are following the advice of keep quiet and do nothing , which is poor advice seeing thats what they have done since they arrived.

I sense people in and around Ewood want changes but at present no-one is rocking that boat

Could it be that Shaw's position is tied in with Bowyers position in the owners eyes. i.e. Madam to Shaw "Listen Derick, you appointed and backed Bowyer, if you got it wrong you both go"

[Exiled in Toronto]

I am talking about the BBC exit poll on election night which was based upon approx. 150,000 voters (0.4%) of those who voted as opposed to your 'bog standard' opinion poll usually based upon approx. 1,000 voters (0.003% of electorate).

Your argument is fallacious.

With the greatest respect, unless you have actually worked with polls and surveys and understand the nuances, you may struggle to understand the mechanics and their legitimacy.

As far chants of Bowyer out, sadly, I feel as though a storm is brewing and that will mean Rovers continue to regress.

So care to be specific about your experience in commisssioning, designing, gathering, interpreting, reporting and using Market Research? I ask because it was my actual job or part of it for 30 years with one of the biggest market research spends in the country.

Using the BBC exit survey as a comparison shows your ignorance in the following ways for starters:

1) The poll on here is self-selecting, not quota'd to be representative of the wider population it purports to represent the views of. The BBC survey was quota'd exactly to match the Electoral Roll on every key dimension: age, sex, georgraphy and so on. I would hazard a guess that this poll radically over-represents the part of our fanbase who live in Hampshire and boycott games, to pluck an example from thin air.

2) This poll is an opinion poll, the BBC one was a survey of past, very recent behaviour. One is opinion on a possible future event, one is actual past behaviour. This is one reason why exit surveys are always much more accurate than pre-election polls.

3) This site has, I believe, around 2,500 members, 90% of whom have elected not to express an opinion. As this poll is self-selecting then one has to factor in the selection of not expressing an opinion into the reporting and interpretation.

I could go on but as you don't have the slightest idea what I'm talking about, there's no real benefit to doing so.

[mustard]

Hello, mustard.

Is that because Kean won those games or because you really believe it? Let's say that it wasn't Kean in charge but a different manager who won four out of seven games and then resigned. It's a given that fans wouldn't be as begrudging about those results.

Well what defines grinding out a result? I thought it was picking up points without playing at the top of your game? Isn't that exactly what we did? I'm not sure you can attribute that to fluke, otherwise you could say that our current plight under Bowyer is just down to rotten luck.

I don't think any of us know the exact motivations for Kean's resignation. There's someone on here who believes he was pushed.

I'm not sure that Allardyce's personal feelings towards Kean are relevant to the discussion, but there are plenty of managers with more successful CVs than Kean who haven't been able to find work again. Alan Curbishley, Glenn Hoddle, and David O'Leary spring to mind.

I'm not even going that far. I'm saying that based on the evidence alone, that was our best chance of promotion. It's the only time that we've started the season like promotion contenders, and I think we had the squad to do it.

Hi Amarillo. I can't be bothered dividing your quotes I'm afraid but I'll try and reply point by point.

I'd seen enough of Kean and the team in those games to believe they were flukes in some respect. Bear in mind you are comparing a spell of 7 games to Bowyer's entire spell in charge in your points RE: flukes and rotten luck. Taking those 7 games in isolation makes Kean seem favourable, yet a look at his entire performance at Rovers spells out something different. By the same token, if I was to take Bowyer's wonder-run at the end of the 12/13 season as conclusive evidence he would have us performing at the top/in the play-offs the following season, I'd have found myself very wrong. Likewise with his caretaker spells.

We had some quality players (so we should have considering what we spent) and I felt they performed in spite of Kean. A better squad than most yet an inferior manager IMO. Worth noting we conceded 10 goals in the 7 games before Kean resigned. We may have scored a lot but a matter of time before a defensive record like that catches up with you.

I also think that was the top of our game under Kean and with a team of 'ex-Prem players' and expensive signings, so we should have been picking up some points. There were still fundamental flaws in the team IMO incl bad eggs and weak defenders. We had a better squad than most but an inferior manager.

Have any of the managers you've mentioned been looking for work since? Plenty have taken a sabbatical, engaged in media work and stayed away from management for good.

It probably was our best chance of promotion. I am sure statistically, the season after relegation is the one where it's more favourable to gain promotion. However, another argument could be that last season we had as good a chance of going up, since the squad members had longer to gel under a manager who'd been at the club for a while. Where we disagree is whether it would have been achieved if Kean had remained in charge.

To summarise, it is pure speculation to suggest the form would/wouldn't have continued under Kean. We could dispute it all day but I personally believe we'd have dropped off just as quickly, though the managerial merry-go-round certainly didn't help.

[booth]

Could it be that Shaw's position is tied in with Bowyers position in the owners eyes. i.e. Madam to Shaw "Listen Derick, you appointed and backed Bowyer, if you got it wrong you both go"

After that QnA I don't even think it runs that deep. I just don't think he cares enough to rock the boat and put his pay packet at risk.

He will be well aware of what happened to John Williams and Tom Finn.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/8835527.Mrs_Desai__Why_John_Williams_left_Blackburn_Rovers/

[Giant]

In the modern game, the best managers are nearly all foreign. They have fresh ideas, modern tactics and are aloof from their players, a vital characteristic in managing some of the spoilt brat players. Most are highly intelligent and articulate in the English language. The British cliche ridden bunch are old hat. Rovers could do worse than hiring a manager from abroad.

[Stuart]

In the modern game, the best managers are nearly all foreign. They have fresh ideas, modern tactics and are aloof from their players, a vital characteristic in managing some of the spoilt brat players. Most are highly intelligent and articulate in the English language. The British cliche ridden bunch are old hat. Rovers could do worse than hiring a manager from abroad.

Not sure they need to be foreign but I think you are spot on with 'aloof'. They also need to have a touch of arrogance but one based on a record they can point to - either as a player or manager. Rovers have always enjoyed success when they have had such a manager. The most recent being Big Sam - the perfect exponent. The ones who tend to fail are the ones who get too close to the players, and can no longer be objective / cold. So many times career coaches turned managers struggle. The odd exceptions seem to be those who have learned their trade as number two to a master, like Clarke with Mourinho, or McClaren with Ferguson.

[joey_big_nose]

Im not a Sherwood fan really, think he has far too high an opinion of himself and a poor record of player management.

However I'd be delighted if we got him as I think the board/owners have the possibility to pick a real turkey and Sherwood is better than that.

Sherwood might be forced to consider it as after such a dismal run at Villa its hard to see who will touch him in the prem.

[yoda]

just listened to Sam Allardice after the game today,

absolutely brilliant, said not bothered about being the best team or playing well, the result is what matters.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Has Bowyer not gone yet?

Villa didn't mess around eh but then again they dont have the Loons from Pune.

[Waggy76]

just listened to Sam Allardice after the game today,

absolutely brilliant, said not bothered about being the best team or playing well, the result is what matters.

Makes you want too weep....

These Indians have destroyed a proper football that has been playing since 1875 in less than 5 years !

Whats more they dont care a jot !

If this was happening to Man Utd there would be a public enquiry ,Panorama specials and extended news bulletins ..

[Husky]

Hell, Husky

I'm willing to try anything. See you at 7pm

I'm ready comrades. I've even washed my hands.

[Stuart]

Has he gone?

[Husky]

Has he gone?

I think it takes a short while for thought waves to return from the universe.