[Archived] European Championship France 2016

[Al]

We will at least get to the quarter finals if we have the guts to drop Rooney who I think spoils the passing game of the others.

[roverandout]

It's the way football has gone Gav, the Champions League seems to be the pinnacle for a lot of players in this country, even though it's a rubbish version of the former European Cup driven purely by money (but I've covered that before, and there's no need for me to go off on a tangent!).

A lot of it is down to the media in this country as well, the players will view it as a chore, even when we win the press are outrageous with our players, they can't wait to 'knock 'em down' as it were. As well as massively over-hyping players whenever they have a couple of good games at club level if they're English. Just how much did people go on about Jack Wilshere initially? Because he ran forwards a bit and passed the ball well and didn't 'kick and rush' as the Kaiser put it? He's nowhere near the level of any European midfielders that are talked about, plus, the lad's reckless, and throws himself into tackles he shouldn't do, getting himself injured again in the process. Barkley's another one, he isn't THAT good, but he's decent, but far from the finished article.

We only have a few decent players, and they're in attacking areas- imo we're woefully short at centre half, right back is Clyne's for as long as he wants it, the other candidates have a bit of pace, nothing more imo. Shaw was having a great season until he broke his leg, but I'd say Gibbs/Baines are reasonable deputies, but they get found out at tournament level.

We don't seem to use our more creative players properly i.e. Lallana, but, hopefully he'll get minutes on the pitch under Klopp again.[/

quote]

John stones looks a class act, smalling is improving greatly, Cahill is still quality, Kyle walker was and still could be a very good right back and I fell we now have 3 very good keepers in Forster, Hart and butland

[joey_big_nose]

The problem for many years now has been the lack of players dedicated to the England cause, which players have had heart? which players would bleed for country? I can't think of one over the past 10yrs, mentally they're not at the races, club football to them is where the heart is not England and we've suffered because of that.

You can have all the ability in the world, but if you don't have a desire/heart you'll not get very far and thats been Englands problem for years now. We've a similar problem at Ewood now, where are the players that would run through brick walls? where are the players to carry the rest through the bad times?

Sorry it seems Im picking on you Gav- I'm not honest!

I don't really buy the "bleed the shirt" stuff either to be honest. Spain's great team of 2010/2012 was half Catalan and Basque who largely are not fans of the Spanish nation. Similarly the French squad of 1998 had a huge amount of North African players whose relationship with French nationalism was rocky to put it mildly.

I don't think there's an ounce of truth in the statement the German, French, Italian or Portuguese players will "try harder" than the English players because they love their country more. It's a case of building the best team spirit and system for the players to perform in. Then the players can perform within that. I think Woys doing a good job on that.

[DE.]

This is where I think Hodgson has done well. He has a group of younger players who haven't (yet) played regularly in the latter stages of the Champs League. He has managed to make them a team, not a collection of stars. The squad is very balanced with players able to move into other positions easily. The last era had no balance at all.

The "golden generation" - I'll say 1999 - 2009, was golden for them and their clubs.

We will go out unluckily at the quarter final stages.

The last era has still been vastly more successful than the current one. Have 10 victories against a bunch of minnows and Switzerland really made people forget the utter disaster that was WC 2014, and the pasting we got off Italy in 2012?

[joey_big_nose]

The last era has still been vastly more successful than the current one. Have 10 victories against a bunch of minnows and Switzerland really made people forget the utter disaster that was WC 2014, and the pasting we got off Italy in 2012?

To be fair its a totally different team now from 2012. Just Rooney and Hart left from that team. Even from 2014 the system has changed significantly with the ever more immobile Gerrard dropping out.

Think it's been the biggest turnover of players since 2000-ish.

The 100% record has been won by a largely new set of players playing a new system and they don't deserve to be written off without kicking a ball.

[DE.]

To be fair its a totally different team now from 2012. Just Rooney and Hart left from that team. Even from 2014 the system has changed significantly with the ever more immobile Gerrard dropping out.

Think it's been the biggest turnover of players since 2000-ish.

The 100% record has been won by a largely new set of players playing a new system and they don't deserve to be written off without kicking a ball.

I'm not writing off the players at all. I just find it strange to suggest the current crop are an improvement on the previous bunch when there's been nothing as of yet to prove that. We qualified handily for 2012 and 2014 as well, remember. Let's see how we perform in the actual tournament before lauding Roy as some kind of saviour.

[speeeeeeedie]

The last era has still been vastly more successful than the current one. Have 10 victories against a bunch of minnows and Switzerland really made people forget the utter disaster that was WC 2014, and the pasting we got off Italy in 2012?

I remember WC 2014, it was awful. Although Hodgson presided over it he deserves credit for taking that mess and turning the atmosphere around pretty quickly.

Italy beat us on penalties in 2012. It was hardly a pasting.

The success of the last era came to the players at their respective clubs. I think that this group, although less talented individually, is set up better than those teams to win.

Sven was out for Sven, and Capello has now, after his Russia debacle, proven that he isn't an international manager. I rate Hodgson higher than those two.

[DE.]

I remember WC 2014, it was awful. Although Hodgson presided over it he deserves credit for taking that mess and turning the atmosphere around pretty quickly.

Italy beat us on penalties in 2012. It was hardly a pasting.

The success of the last era came to the players at their respective clubs. I think that this group, although less talented individually, is set up better than those teams to win.

Sven was out for Sven, and Capello has now, after his Russia debacle, proven that he isn't an international manager. I rate Hodgson higher than those two.

We'll see. Until we achieve something in a tournament under Roy he's just another manager who impressed in qualification but bombed on the big stage.

And yes, Italy was a pasting. We may have lost on penalties but 31 shots to 8 in Italy's favour tells its own story. They were insanely wasteful in front of goal, but we got absolutely hammered in that match and fully deserved to go home.

[joey_big_nose]

I'm not writing off the players at all. I just find it strange to suggest the current crop are an improvement on the previous bunch when there's been nothing as of yet to prove that. We qualified handily for 2012 and 2014 as well, remember. Let's see how we perform in the actual tournament before lauding Roy as some kind of saviour.

U wouldnt say the players are an improvement. The squad has a better selection of strikers than 2014, but a worse defence, while the midfield is largely the same except for the loss of Gerrard and Lampard (which could be seen as a good thing or bad).

What had improved is the system and balance, imo.

[DE.]

U wouldnt say the players are an improvement. The squad has a better selection of strikers than 2014, but a worse defence, while the midfield is largely the same except for the loss of Gerrard and Lampard (which could be seen as a good thing or bad).

What had improved is the system and balance, imo.

I'd love to be wrong on this one, and for us to have a good tournament. I just feel like I've been here too many times with England in the past decade or so. The last three tournaments in particular have left me feeling incredibly jaded in regards to the national team. 2010 and 2012 weren't great, but at least we got out of the groups in those campaigns. WC 2014 was just disgusting from England, from the first to last minute. A good qualification campaign does not make up for that, we need to show some guts in the Euros for me to regain any faith in the current set up. I'm not asking to win the tournament, but at least give us something to cheer.

[roverandout]

Lets be honest, bar Spain and Germany all the teams at euro 2016 will be mediocre, if we can avoid those two we have as good a chance as any of going far

[Gav]

Sorry it seems Im picking on you Gav- I'm not honest!

I don't really buy the "bleed the shirt" stuff either to be honest. Spain's great team of 2010/2012 was half Catalan and Basque who largely are not fans of the Spanish nation. Similarly the French squad of 1998 had a huge amount of North African players whose relationship with French nationalism was rocky to put it mildly.

I don't think there's an ounce of truth in the statement the German, French, Italian or Portuguese players will "try harder" than the English players because they love their country more. It's a case of building the best team spirit and system for the players to perform in. Then the players can perform within that. I think Woys doing a good job on that.

I think you underestimate all those sides you mention Joey, leaders in all those teams, players not cut from the same cloth as Pearce, Butcher and Adams but leaders of men and well respected.

Who have we had for years? John bloody Terry, the mans a degenerate, undermines his managers, scheming in the background, i'd not p1ss on him if he was on fire and I think that's how most of his team mates view him also at England level.

Gerrard isn't as bad as Terry but I'd not follow him to Aldi to be honest and Beckham wasn't a leader on the pitch.

All that said, that generation has gone now and I've more interest in the national side, but we're a poor side, no leaders and we'll be home before the beers got cold in the fridge, I hope I'm wrong but I doubt it.

[Mike E]

Further to jbn's point, the current world champs (Germany) have their share of turks and poles in there

I'm more confident under Woy as it looks like a team with a system, despite lacking much individual talent. Woy getting the Swiss ranked 3Rd in the world gives me more optimism too.

[joey_big_nose]

I think you underestimate all those sides you mention Joey, leaders in all those teams, players not cut from the same cloth as Pearce, Butcher and Adams but leaders of men and well respected.

./quote]

Without wishing to labour the point I don't think Germany now or Spain four years ago had/have any players of that type. Sergio Ramos maybe? That's it.

I don't really think needing to try harder has ever been a reason for England failing. Needing better players in key positions, yes, needing a better tactical system, yes, needing more confidence and self belief, yes. But not just trying harder.

Also on the leadership front I would say tbh with Ferdinand, Terry, Gerrard, Lampard, Beckham, G Neville the team was full of leaders. Not nice people maybe, but players who knew how to lead and win things and idolised by the young players. I can't see how having Butcher et al would have been an improvement over the above, nicer blokes they may have been.

[joey_big_nose]

Lets be honest, bar Spain and Germany all the teams at euro 2016 will be mediocre, if we can avoid those two we have as good a chance as any of going far

Totally agree on this. They are two exceptional sides of a slickness, fluidity and balance which seems - at least to me - of being from a different planet to other teams including England.

What also is interesting is how individual players are not that crucial to either team. Players can swap in and out, quite unlike the teams of Maradona, Zidane, Baggio etc who dominated their sides. For both Germany and Spain the system trumps the player.

With the Dutch (amazingly) out you look at those qualified and after Germany and Spain there is a little group of similar standard squads in France, Italy and maybe Portugal and Belgium who it would be very hard to be confident of a win against. Usually incredibly tight games against those sides, and we get shaded out.

Everyone else seems eminently beatable. Though I wouldn't fancy playing Wales/NI or ROI... It would be a huge game for any if those teams.

[Gav]

Without wishing to labour the point I don't think Germany now or Spain four years ago had/have any players of that type. Sergio Ramos maybe? That's it.

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You're just not getting it JBN

It's not about trying harder, it's about having a desire to succeed at international level, something Englans players have lacked in bucket loads for year in my opinion.

Remember Rooney slagging off the England fans for booing the side against Algeria? Thousands of whom had just come back from South Africa where we'd failed miserably and fans had paid out thousands to follow the side.

Terry doing a 1 man revolt against Cappello mid tournament? And laughing his head off as we went crashing out of the World Cup in 2006?

Ferdinand faking injury for England duty then flying to the Middle East to commentate on Al Jazera Tv?

Do you think these are the sort of players that have a desire to succeed at international level? Players that would inspire you?

Or would you have Ramos, Xavi, Piquet or Casillias?

Or Ballack, Klinsmam or Lahm?

I rest my case.

[joey_big_nose]

You're just not getting it JBN

It's not about trying harder, it's about having a desire to succeed at international level, something Englans players have lacked in bucket loads for year in my opinion.

Remember Rooney slagging off the England fans for booing the side against Algeria? Thousands of whom had just come back from South Africa where we'd failed miserably and fans had paid out thousands to follow the side.

Terry doing a 1 man revolt against Cappello mid tournament? And laughing his head off as we went crashing out of the World Cup in 2006?

Ferdinand faking injury for England duty then flying to the Middle East to commentate on Al Jazera Tv?

Do you think these are the sort of players that have a desire to succeed at international level? Players that would inspire you?

Or would you have Ramos, Xavi, Piquet or Casillias?

Or Ballack, Klinsmam or Lahm?

I rest my case.

I think Rooney, Terry, Ferdinand etc are not very nice people but I thinks its really hard to argue they've not had a desire to succeed at international level? The three incidents you point to

1) Rio Ferdinand in 2013 was 33 years old, plagued by injury, and unlikely to go to the world cup in 2014. He withdrew himself from selection, he flew to the middle East to do some commentary. Wasn't the wisest move but hardly the mutiny on the Bounty. Shearer packed it in entirely when he was 29 despite still being a top striker. He's just as bad or worse on that front. Same with Scholes.

2) The Terry revolt incident (which was in 2010 after the Algeria game) and the handling of it was pure idiocy - going to the press before speaking to Capello - however was motivated by the senior players, like the fans, dissatisfaction with the tactics. Stupid definitely, and indicative of very poor discipline and management, but again does not seem to suggest a lack of desire to succeed. Infact the opposite. Indeed the players, like the supporters booing in the game against Algeria, were frustrated with England in the early games in 2010 and what Terry thought (stupidly) he should do is publically pressurise Capello.

3) Rooney slagging off the fans happened during the 2010 tournament, but again of anything, it shows he does care about succeeding. If he didn't care he'd just walk off, why court the flak? Stupid obviously, but I can't see how it indicates a desire not to succeed.

The daft obsession we have with passion, desire to succeed and "will to win" I think hurts British teams more than it helps them. We just heap pressure on ourselves, constantly personally attack the players and management in the press which only undermines self confidence and inhibits performance.

I really don't think the individual personality of players is the key reason England have performed in some tournaments and not in others. If that was true why were we shyte in 88 and 92 but great in 90? Shyte in 94 but great in 96? Great in 98 but shyte in 2000? The personalities were largely the same.

[Gav]

I think we'll agree to disagree, it's good to have some decent debate JBN.

[Commondore]

Lets be honest, bar Spain and Germany all the teams at euro 2016 will be mediocre, if we can avoid those two we have as good a chance as any of going far

France? Considering their home turf advantage they're probably my pick to win the whole tournament.

[joey_big_nose]

I think we'll agree to disagree, it's good to have some decent debate JBN.

Nothing like arguing on the internet to while away an afternoon or two! Good debate

[speeeeeeedie]

U wouldnt say the players are an improvement. The squad has a better selection of strikers than 2014, but a worse defence, while the midfield is largely the same except for the loss of Gerrard and Lampard (which could be seen as a good thing or bad).

What had improved is the system and balance, imo.

I'd like to add another to the current striker stable; Andy Carroll.

If fit, which isn't usually very long, he is unplayable. He would be an ideal super sub to Come on and cause havoc late in games.

He came on for West Ham yesterday and made mincemeat of Cahill and that clown Terry.

[Baz]

Ireland drawing 1-1 away in foggy Sarajevo - great result for them in the first leg of the playoffs if it stays that way.

I see Roy is doing his usual and losing vs a decent team. Why not play the first team against a good team that will give you a test after 18 months of playing nobodies?

[RevidgeBlue]

Ireland drawing 1-1 away in foggy Sarajevo - great result for them in the first leg of the playoffs if it stays that way.

I see Roy is doing his usual and losing vs a decent team. Why not play the first team against a good team that will give you a test after 18 months of playing nobodies?

It really is incomprehensible how Woy is still in a job after the last World Cup. As you say every time he comes up against a decent side he is found wanting. Sven was the same Imo. Imposters the pair of 'em.

[roverandout]

England are rancid, when they play a big team, they seem to freeze in fear, they revert back to long ball tactics as the players don't want the responsibility of have possession of the ball, this is why we will always flop at major tournaments. Every Spanish player is comfortable in possession even their second choice right back who scores a wonder goal.

[AllRoverAsia]

Edit: covered in ICBINF Extra Extra