[Archived] Burnlee Preview

[scotty_beam_me_up]

I couldn't disagree more, would anyone, Rhodes aside, get in the Derby side? Boro side? Hull side or burnley side?

Hardly any I'd wager, but we'll all have a different opinion on this I'm sure.

Derby and Boro are the stand out sides in this league but the rest of the league is average at best. Alan Judge is currently the best player in the league right now according to some and Bowyer couldn't get a tune out of him. We don't have a team of world beaters but we should have easily made the play offs last season with Rudy and Rhodes and this season we shouldn't be bottom half. We are punching well below our weight.

We can't buy players but we can bring in an experienced manager.

[mustard]

What league are they in?

It depends how you gage doing a better job.

I've made no secret of the fact I'd replace him, but I don't expect major improvement.

So does Mick have to actually achieve promotion for you to acknowledge he's done/doing a better job than Bowyer? I thought finishing above us and plenty others with far tighter constraints would be compelling enough an argument.

[Gav]

So does Mick have to actually achieve promotion for you to acknowledge he's done/doing a better job than Bowyer? I thought finishing above us and plenty others with far tighter constraints would be compelling enough an argument.

How long do you think finishing 7th would keep the pitch fork brigade in the shed?

That's a better finish than Bowyer...

We need to get promoted mustard, anything less than that is no good, so we need Venkys out not a new manager.

[TeamGB-11]

How long do you think finishing 7th would keep the pitch fork brigade in the shed?

That's a better finish than Bowyer...

We need to get promoted mustard, anything less than that is no good, so we need Venkys out not a new manager.

You are making no sense. You say we need promotion but acknowledge venkys departure would mean likely administration and a fall down the leagues..?

[Amo]

If someone could wave a magic wand today, remove Venky's and all their hangers-on, give the club to the Rovers Trust/two Ians etc, but we'd have to start in League Two, I wonder how many would take that?

[TeamGB-11]

If someone could wave a magic wand today, remove Venky's and all their hangers-on, give the club to the Rovers Trust/two Ians etc, but we'd have to start in League Two, I wonder how many would take that?

Saying they would take that is one thing, actually attending games whilst stuck in football's bottom tier is quite another..

We do not have fans like Pompey..

[JHRover]

Saying they would take that is one thing, actually attending games whilst stuck in football's bottom tier is quite another..

We do not have fans like Pompey..

Exactly. Pompey will come back sooner or later because even now, 3 years in, they are getting 15,000+ gates in the 4th division. That puts them in a different league to anyone else at that level.

If Rovers ended up Venky-free in the 4th division we might get decent gates for a season or two for the novelty and the expectation of things improving quickly, but if we ended up languishing for more than a couple of years then our gates would be woeful.

Too many Rovers fans would then start moaning about the price of season tickets to watch 4th tier football or quickly get fed up with watching us hosting Dagenham and Crawley.

[Gav]

If someone could wave a magic wand today, remove Venky's and all their hangers-on, give the club to the Rovers Trust/two Ians etc, but we'd have to start in League Two, I wonder how many would take that?

+1

Saying they would take that is one thing, actually attending games whilst stuck in football's bottom tier is quite another..

We do not have fans like Pompey..

I wasn't going to reply to you because you're on the wind up but......

Last time we played in 3rd Div we had 30k on for 1 game, 25k for another and an average bigger than we have today, so you're talking bunkum.

[TeamGB-11]

+1

I wasn't going to reply to you because you're on the wind up but......

Last time we played in 3rd Div we had 30k on for 1 game, 25k for another and an average bigger than we have today, so you're talking bunkum.

I swear down, I am not on a wind up at all. Please stop saying that as I enjoy talking football with you guys, even if we can't agree on some points.

As for your point, football was an infinitely more affordable working mans pass time in those days, with the majority watching the games from a cheap entry standing position on the terraces, not to mention the fact our season at that level was a successful promotion campaign under kendall. A much more accurate guide of what we could expect is Burnley's more recent(late 80's early 90s) average last time they were languishing in the 4th div, around 2,500ish..?

[TeamGB-11]

Exactly. Pompey will come back sooner or later because even now, 3 years in, they are getting 15,000+ gates in the 4th division. That puts them in a different league to anyone else at that level.

If Rovers ended up Venky-free in the 4th division we might get decent gates for a season or two for the novelty and the expectation of things improving quickly, but if we ended up languishing for more than a couple of years then our gates would be woeful.

Too many Rovers fans would then start moaning about the price of season tickets to watch 4th tier football or quickly get fed up with watching us hosting Dagenham and Crawley.

+1

[joey_big_nose]

+1

I wasn't going to reply to you because you're on the wind up but......

Last time we played in 3rd Div we had 30k on for 1 game, 25k for another and an average bigger than we have today, so you're talking bunkum.

I get where you are coming from, but I think that era has past for Rovers now. If we dropped another division or two, even with local owners, we would be looking at 7-8k a game absolutely tops in my opinion. We might get a bit of a boost if new owners came it, and you could build the crowd if you were winning. But the base would be 7-8k.

Rovers fans are used to big success (ie.prem footie) for low prices in the main.

I desperately want rid of Venkys but we need to look at ways we could do that while staying in the Championship.

Venkys will eventually not be able to support the losses and will sell. That's the way it has to go unless they have a legitimate asset strip option (I don't believe they do beyond selling our players) or put us to bankruptcy (I'm not so sure about this one... Could they do that to us? Is it an attractive option for them?)

The Championship quality is not great. It's not like the prem where you are dead if you aren't moving forward with quality management and quality players. Here you can survive just by being competent and signing journeymen. If we can make a decent appointment post Bowyer then we just need to hang on, weather the player sales, and encourage Venkys to come to terms with accepting the vast losses they've made and to jog on.

Ever the optimist I know but I genuinely can't see it working any other way. We are not getting promoted now unless we absolutely hit the jackpot with the next manager signing and Venkys seriously back when we come out of FFP. Could happen but unlikely.

Without promotion losses will continue until Venkys have had enough.

[TeamGB-11]

I get where you are coming from, but I think that era has past for Rovers now. If we dropped another division or two, even with local owners, we would be looking at 7-8k a game absolutely tops in my opinion. We might get a bit of a boost if new owners came it, and you could build the crowd if you were winning. But the base would be 7-8k.

Rovers fans are used to big success (ie.prem footie) for low prices in the main.

I desperately want rid of Venkys but we need to look at ways we could do that while staying in the Championship.

Venkys will eventually not be able to support the losses and will sell. That's the way it has to go unless they have a legitimate asset strip option (I don't believe they do beyond selling our players) or put us to bankruptcy (I'm not so sure about this one... Could they do that to us? Is it an attractive option for them?)

The Championship quality is not great. It's not like the prem where you are dead if you aren't moving forward with quality management and quality players. Here you can survive just by being competent and signing journeymen. If we can make a decent appointment post Bowyer then we just need to hang on, weather the player sales, and encourage Venkys to come to terms with accepting the vast losses they've made and to jog on.

Ever the optimist I know but I genuinely can't see it working any other way. We are not getting promoted now unless we absolutely hit the jackpot with the next manager signing and Venkys seriously back when we come out of FFP. Could happen but unlikely.

Without promotion losses will continue until Venkys have had enough.

To be honest, if the target is just to continue treading water, then bowyer is suitable enough to remain I'd say..

[Amo]

Saying they would take that is one thing, actually attending games whilst stuck in football's bottom tier is quite another..

We do not have fans like Pompey..

I think a lot of the stayaways would return if they felt the club was 'theirs' again. I don't think it's lower-league football that's dwindling our support but the ownership.

[TeamGB-11]

I think a lot of the stayaways would return if they felt the club was 'theirs' again. I don't think it's lower-league football that's dwindling our support but the ownership.

I respect your view but I believe your naive to think that..

[tomphil]

We don't get 15k home fans now in this div unless we are doing really well so we wouldn't get Pompey style crowds every week. Football is a funny beast though, not that long ago they were getting 8 or 9k in this div. They also couldn't fill their shoebox half the time in the Prem despite being a one club city of 180k plus with their ticket prices not much dearer than ours and nearest rival 30 miles away.

I reckon doing well if we could get what we get now then that would be good enough to help us out of that div soon enough as long as we were run well, managed correctly and not completely weighed down with debt. All this comparison stuff to the likes of them is a bit dud anyway, Portsmouth and Blackburn in area, economy terms are wide apart. They should get good crowds end of.

[JHRover]

What were our gates when we dropped into the Championship when Jack Walker and John Williams were still here? Mid to high teens even when we were doing reasonably well?

So the suggestion that there is a vast amount of supporters out there who are not turning up solely because of Venkys management who would suddenly flock back to the club and stick with it regardless of what division the club was in, I don't buy.

As a Championship club I think the best we will ever get is around the 15,000 mark, which could swell by another few thousand if we were around the top end for a prolonged spell.

Drop down the leagues and crowds would drop drastically. Having a Jack Walker reincarnation wouldn't change that. People would refuse to pay the same or more for lower league football watching Hartlepool and Barnet. A change of ownership might see a short term peak but the trajectory would be downward.

[Gav]

Our crowds aren't the problem, not sure why it's even being brought up.

Liverpool last season we could have sold 25k home tickets, if we get back in the top flight we'll get 20k home fans each week, but the clock is ticking, the longer Venkys stick around the likelihood the support will dwindle.

[TeamGB-11]

What were our gates when we dropped into the Championship when Jack Walker and John Williams were still here? Mid to high teens even when we were doing reasonably well?

So the suggestion that there is a vast amount of supporters out there who are not turning up solely because of Venkys management who would suddenly flock back to the club and stick with it regardless of what division the club was in, I don't buy.

As a Championship club I think the best we will ever get is around the 15,000 mark, which could swell by another few thousand if we were around the top end for a prolonged spell.

Drop down the leagues and crowds would drop drastically. Having a Jack Walker reincarnation wouldn't change that. People would refuse to pay the same or more for lower league football watching Hartlepool and Barnet. A change of ownership might see a short term peak but the trajectory would be downward.

+1

Our crowds aren't the problem, not sure why it's even being brought up.

Liverpool last season we could have sold 25k home tickets, if we get back in the top flight we'll get 20k home fans each week, but the clock is ticking, the longer Venkys stick around the likelihood the support will dwindle.

* looks for brick wall to bang head against *..

[Hasta]

To be honest, if the target is just to continue treading water, then bowyer is suitable enough to remain I'd say..

Do you?

When he loses Rhodes inevitably, do you think we will still tread water?

[Hasta]

Our crowds aren't the problem, not sure why it's even being brought up.

Liverpool last season we could have sold 25k home tickets, if we get back in the top flight we'll get 20k home fans each week, but the clock is ticking, the longer Venkys stick around the likelihood the support will dwindle.

But plummeting to league two will see our support dwindle also. JHrover is right what he says. Different era when we used to get large attendances in the lower leagues. It cost bugger all to get in for a start. If we were league two under fan ownership, do you think we would be on £18 tickets and £250 season tickets. That's not a reason to love Venkys but the increase compared to what we paid in the premier league will see a lot of fringe fans not bother.

Attendances would improve if there was 'hope' of a prem return. If we were in the playoffs come April, our home gates would be higher as there would be some kind of excitement, some kind of hope. The fact that we have not spent consecutive weeks in the playoff zones in 26 months, despite having the firepower we had, once again points to GB.

Edit - I stand corrected on Pompey prices. £20 a ticket.

[Waggy76]

With the centre halves and midfielders we have in our squad , promotion is a pipe dream....

Rhodes is the only , who can score goals if he gets injured or is sold relegation will follow...

We are in jam Baldrick !

Sacking Bowyer and appointing a proper manager would in my opinion avert the threat of relegation...

[TeamGB-11]

Do you?

When he loses Rhodes inevitably, do you think we will still tread water?

Depends who he can get in to replace Rhodes, which he would be able to do as the embargo would be lifted..

Funny thing is boro got Nugent, who I'd swap for Rhodes, as a better all round footballer, in a second..

[bob fleming]

To be honest, if the target is just to continue treading water, then bowyer is suitable enough to remain I'd say..

That should never ever ever be the target. In fact that's a recipe for relegation. How do you set a target to "tread water" - 12th? 16th?

Maybe we'll get out of the transfer embargo, maybe we won't. When pushed at the Q&A Shaw said £5m would do it. When interrogated by Paxman in the Telegraph a few weeks ago he said he didn't know how many £'s would do it, at which point the interview ended as the next logical question was probably a bit tricky.

Again, at the Q&A, Shaw said that even if the embargo is removed don't expect major spending as we'd go straight back in it. £2m would be the tops - at which point Bowyer asked if he could have that in writing.

So we carry on as we are. Meandering, drifting along. There appears to be a lack of urgency, almost as though there is no pressure to succeed. I don't believe for a minute that the owners have made any such statement about being happy with things, just as I don't believe they watch every match on a feed. The money doesn't matter to them, just as the club's success doesn't matter to them. We just exist. For all we know Venky's have emigrated to Jupiter.

And yet if we were promoted they would get some of the money back - maybe all in time. But that would take a bit of time, a bit of thought, the need to engage brains and listen to people who care about the club. All too much hassle it would appear.

Unless of course the Premier League said - take your relegation, go away, don't come back for 10 years, don't even think about it - we know what took place at your club, take this as your punishment because if it comes out what took place; that you broke every rule under the sun, then we'll really go to town on you. That's the only logical explanation I can come up with as to why "treading water" would be the target.

Just a thought. Look at that, a conspiracy theory! At this time of day.

[Hasta]

Depends who he can get in to replace Rhodes, which he would be able to do as the embargo would be lifted..

It does. But the embargo wasn't in place when he signed Brown.

Let's not hide behind the FFP excuses for Bowyer again. He had no restrictions and couldn't get us top 6. as Venkys lose interest the likes of Hanley, Conway and anyone else with value will be sold and replaced with cheaper alternatives. Based on what we have seen, it takes a huge leap of faith to believe Bowyer will oversee all this downsizing and even tread water.

[Gav]

* looks for brick wall to bang head against *..

*Gav hopes you find one*

But plummeting to league two will see our support dwindle also. JHrover is right what he says. Different era when we used to get large attendances in the lower leagues. It cost bugger all to get in for a start. If we were league two under fan ownership, do you think we would be on £18 tickets and £250 season tickets. That's not a reason to love Venkys but the increase compared to what we paid in the premier league will see a lot of fringe fans not bother.

Attendances would improve if there was 'hope' of a prem return. If we were in the playoffs come April, our home gates would be higher as there would be some kind of excitement, some kind of hope. The fact that we have not spent consecutive weeks in the playoff zones in 26 months, despite having the firepower we had, once again points to GB.

Edit - I stand corrected on Pompey prices. £20 a ticket.

I've already stated that I don't believe gates are an issue, I stand by that. This bit of debate is just clouding the main issues for me.

By the way if the gates did drop to 5k under fan ownership in league 2 so what, it's 1000 times better than 10k under Venkys.

You cut your cloth.