[Archived] Brentford At Home 7.11.2015

[philipl]

Talk about GB gping or not is just about the only thing keeping this website going.

Followed the game on twitter from Malta.

Or rather I would have done- I swear there was a 30 minute spell in the second half when not even OneRovers were stirred enough from their coma to tweet....

[Athlete]

Berg was picked By Shebby, Shaw and Agnew

Appleton picked by the owners.

Didnt Shaw and Shebby interview Holloway and didnt someone walk out of the meeting?

Dont know who spoke to Sherwood. Did anyone speak to him?

Holloway walked out as did Sherwood

[47er]

I suggest you look at my comments since yesterday game on here and on social media.

that's will tell my views on the current situation.

Struggling to maintain your optimism in the face of reality Chaddy? Better late than never!

Don't worry, we will win one soon and you can change again.

[Blue blood]

Having had a bit more time to think on the game here are a few more detailed reflections.

Firstly Brentford:

I didn't really know of many of their squad, which is probably a combination of my ignorance and them not having many good/"star" players. Having seen them play I thought they were a "Warburton light" team - please no bread jokes here - in that they tried to do some unorthodox stuff and passed it around quite nicely but without the effectiveness of last season. I've never seen a team make as many long and low cross-field balls as they did and thought some of their ideas though inventive didn't always come off. They had lots of movement though yet struggled defensively. They especially looked at sea whenever we put pressure on them, especially from high balls into the box, and we gained a number of cheap corners off very little pressure which we failed to capitalize on. As ever in the championship my conclusion was they play decent stuff, are a decent team, but like everyone else really struggle when put under pressure and look vulnerable defending.

Rovers team

Steele - 8 - aside from his one nightmare kick which nearly went very badly wrong (one of the reasons I feel he's not a number 1 imo) he played really well. A couple of smart saves and came out well for a few things. And for him one bad kick in a game is pretty good. Can you tell I'm not a fan? But in fairness he had a good game.

Marshall - 9.5 - serves me right for questioning his rb abilities but he was excellent defensively. But he did prove my point that he should be played further forward as he offered more threat in his 20 minutes in midfield then the other two wingers did in the rest of the game.

Olsson - 6 - lots of running but didn't really come off for him offensively or defensively. No clangers but a quiet game for him.

Duffy & Hanley - 6 - first half score I'd give them a 4 and that's being generous. They're great at defending high balls into the box but pretty clueless when the opposition uses movement and through balls. First half I could have driven a bus between them on numerous occasions. Second half both improved and got a lot better at cutting out the through balls. Still caught out once or twice, and if I were a scout feeding back to the opposition against Rovers I'd hammer home that through balls and movement are their big weakness. However...

Evans and Apkan - 5 - ...neither of our centre midfielders offered them enough protection in the first half. They both put in the effort and had moments of nice play both offensively and breaking up the play. However, for every good piece of play, there were some poor examples, and the fact Brentford seemed to have such a good passing rhythm for most of the game, coupled with the vulnerability of the centre backs shows that their endevour was higher than their effectiveness.

Taylor - 4 - not sure what he brought to the party bar effort.

Conway - 6 - tried hard but limited effectiveness. Didn't manage to get in as many of his excellent crosses as he'd have liked. Ran hard at the opposition but got little change out of them. Not his or Olsson's day.

Lawrence - 8 - still drifts in and out of the game a lot, but when he's in the game his link up and creativity is excellent. Not sure it was an intentional goal rather than a cross, but he does get and try to put the ball in the right areas. Let down by many of the other attacking players having quiet games.

Rhodes - 3 - Am a big fan of Rhodes but we played with 10 men. Brentford had a fairly high line and so combined with no service was anonymous. When Delfy has more of a presence then you, you know you've had a bad day. Offered no physical threat, outlet through channels, chances or anything. Little service is a mitigating factor but not a full excuse for such a poor performance.

Subs:

Delfy - 5 - a lot more involved then Rhodes and some decent runs, but my word he's no ability or footballing brain. If he's our last throw of the dice we're desperate.

Henley - 7 - partly because he did decently at rb getting forward but warrants a point or two extra just for safely releasing Marshall to move further forward.

Williamson - N/A - strange and pointless sub imo. Was Evans that knackered he couldn't do an extra 2 minutes? Was he shattered before in which case why not make an earlier change. Waste of a sub imo.

Reflecting on the game, went with my sister who's over from New Zealand. Her questions were "when will we turn up and start playing?" "are the opposition always this bad?" and "Why do we only attack them when we go a goal down, we should get something from this game?" All of which sum up the mega problems with Rovers. We were outplayed by a very mediocre Brentford team who looked very vulnerable at the back especially to long balls and had a very dodgy keeper.

We were lucky that Brentford messed up a clear chance, through a massive gap in our centre halves, literally just before Lawrence scored, Had that gone in, it would have been 2-0 and of sight. It frustrated me we didn't take the game to the team until after they'd scored. It was Brentford not Barca. And they were clearly nervous under any kind of pressure. Second best as we were the game was there for the taking. Bowyer's over cautiousness is massively holding us back.

It also frustrated me that despite Brentford being uncomfortable with long balls that we didn't at all try to capitalize on this. Koita's presence in such a situation, heck even Spurr's long throws would've caused a lot of questions Brentford didn't have the answers to. In a similar vein their keeper couldn't kick for toffee and always wanted to play it short. (Again, when Steele is the better keeper at kicking you have issues.) Why it took to the 70th minute for us to realize this and prevent him playing it out to the defense was beyond me.

We won't go down, we've too much quality which we use when the situation is dire. But our continual delight in mediocrity means this season - and possibly our last realistic chance of promotion - is a write off and none event. Bowyer's more content with getting the point and avoiding negativity of losses, rather than doing what's best for the club, aiming for promotion through getting three points for a win. All in all, I can see why, weather aside, the crowd was so low. Rovers have given up any ambition for the season. Is it any wonder the supporters are giving up hope?

Edit the mix of boos and applause at the end rather suggest that they have, and that no one is actually for Bowyer. One attempted chant of Bowyer's blue and white army from block 1 didn't take off, which given the number of other chants that did is very telling. As are the boos at the end.There may not be mass protests or calls for the managers head but he and anyone else who thinks fans are happy with the situation are on a different planet.

[Tom]

Well put blue blood

I have to agree with pretty much all of that, great post.

Let's make no mistake Rhodes more than earns himself games like that with his phenomenal record but he was abysmal yesterday, he barely made any effort to win anything that went his way; on another day though a ball breaks for him and he puts it away, yesterday he didn't have a single effort of note.

That also points to an issue with how we played as a team, we have one real sustained threat in the team and we failed to make a single chance for him.

[joey_big_nose]

Why would Brentford want all those? Their side was slightly better than ours.

And it's nothing to do with motivation.

It's a good indicator of how your team will do.

If you buy more premier league players or players that have been promoted then you will be at the top end of the table.

Ok, compare this side to the two teams that got us promoted in last 25 years? Not even close to either.

Look, if you think that Brentford team has more quality than ours with one of the best strikers in the division, two players (by your own measure) who got promoted in Evans and Conway, a very highly rated young player in Lawrence then there's not much point arguing the point. They were slightly better than us on the day but the difference was a better management setup.

[Speedie Dived]

Look, if you think that Brentford team has more quality than ours with one of the best strikers in the division, two players (by your own measure) who got promoted in Evans and Conway, a very highly rated young player in Lawrence then there's not much point arguing the point. They were slightly better than us on the day but the difference was a better management setup.

Not sure how you can be some matter of fact on the management issue but your opinion is fair enough.

Ok, just concentrating on our own players. How many current players would get in our two teams the have been promoted in the last 25 years?

[joey_big_nose]

Lawrence - 8 - still drifts in and out of the game a lot, but when he's in the game his link up and creativity is excellent. Not sure it was an intentional goal rather than a cross, but he does get and try to put the ball in the right areas. Let down by many of the other attacking players having quiet games.

Rhodes - 3 - Am a big fan of Rhodes but we played with 10 men. Brentford had a fairly high line and so combined with no service was anonymous. When Delfy has more of a presence then you, you know you've had a bad day. Offered no physical threat, outlet through channels, chances or anything. Little service is a mitigating factor but not a full excuse for such a poor performance.

Great post. What is mystifying is if we are on the back foot and the oppo are playing a highline thus forcing Rhodes up surely the sensible response is to either

1) Push Lawrence with his pace onto the shoulder of the last man alongside Rhodes and play balls in behind.

2) Bring on Koita who physically compete with the centrebacks and force them back. Also has pace to get in behind.

Do either of those and watch their defence retreat sharpish. Instead we

1) Moved Lawrence to right wing.

2) Left Koita on the bench and brought on Delfy who has a little pace but no physicality

Really disappointing stuff from Bowyer.

[A cup of beans]

At first the game was there for the taking. We exerted real pressure- at the end of the 1st half and 1st 10 mins of the second half.

But predictably, we retreated, surrendered any semblance of control and Bowyer was unable to rectify it.

I thought Brentford were quite nice on the eye, but they lacked grit and steel, and don't look a real goal threat.

Missed opportunity, but the performance is par for this squad.

[PLJPB]

Not sure how you can be some matter of fact on the management issue but your opinion is fair enough.

Ok, just concentrating on our own players. How many current players would get in our two teams the have been promoted in the last 25 years?

On similar lines. Do you think Bowyer would have got those 2 teams promoted? Assuming he could have been able to assemble them in the first place.

[Speedie Dived]

On similar lines. Do you think Bowyer would have got those 2 teams promoted? Assuming he could have been able to assemble them in the first place.

Yeah i do. I am firmly of the belief that ultimately better players with better quality will beat a lesser side the majority of the time, whoever is in charge.

Of course managers have an influence, but no where near the influence the players have.

[Mike E]

Yeah i do. I am firmly of the belief that ultimately better players with better quality will beat a lesser side the majority of the time, whoever is in charge.

Of course managers have an influence, but no where near the influence the players have.

So how do we explain Mourinho at Chelsea now? Motes at Utd? Arsenal's continuous failures to win trophies?

Or even the surge in performances at West Ham, Palace, and Leicester this season? The difference in performance from Villa vs City. If managers didn't matter much, the famous 'new-manager bounce' wouldn't be a thing!

All down to managers, as there's not much difference in playing squads compared to last season.

[Speedie Dived]

So how do we explain Mourinho at Chelsea now? Motes at Utd? Arsenal's continuous failures to win trophies?

Or even the surge in performances at West Ham, Palace, and Leicester this season? The difference in performance from Villa vs City. If managers didn't matter much, the famous 'new-manager bounce' wouldn't be a thing!

All down to managers, as there's not much difference in playing squads compared to last season.

Chelsea have lost/injured a top goalie, right back and centre halve have lost their legs. Hazard has fallen out with Jose and Costa came back unfit. Plus they have made poor investment in the team. Jose is at the centre of this mess as well.

Arsenal have added Ozil and Sanchez recently, top of the league and now challenging.

United bought sh1te under Moyes after years of under investment in midfield.

West Ham have added some players of real quality, Payet could well be on for player of the year.

Palace have added some real quality in Cabaye.

Leicester have added a few new faces with quality.

Villa played well under Garde, but it was a backs to the wall job. But they will finish around the bottom of the league unless he brings in new faces.

Managers do have an influence, but for me, players are the bigger factor.

[Boz]

Our defense sat too deep in the second half, in effect gifting Brentford space to control play as we didn't press them when they had the ball.

In the first half, Duffy as ever, was 'encouraging' the skipper to play a higher line. Although after their goal which was slipped in behind them both, then either deliberately or unconsciously Duffy/Hanley were slow to push up the pitch when we had possession. Sometimes hard to see from the Riverside whether our coaching staff are sending instructions during play, but their best player #20 Diagourara (?) and McCormack ran the show in the middle. Akpan, worst game in a Rovers shirt for me, Evans poor too, though he's been much worse than Saturday.

[den]

Chelsea have lost/injured a top goalie, right back and centre halve have lost their legs. Hazard has fallen out with Jose and Costa came back unfit. Plus they have made poor investment in the team. Jose is at the centre of this mess as well.

Arsenal have added Ozil and Sanchez recently, top of the league and now challenging.

United bought sh1te under Moyes after years of under investment in midfield.

West Ham have added some players of real quality, Payet could well be on for player of the year.

Palace have added some real quality in Cabaye.

Leicester have added a few new faces with quality.

Villa played well under Garde, but it was a backs to the wall job. But they will finish around the bottom of the league unless he brings in new faces.

Managers do have an influence, but for me, players are the bigger factor.

Yes, the biggest influence a manager has is the quality of squad he builds. Not the only influence, but the biggest.

[Blue blood]

Yeah i do. I am firmly of the belief that ultimately better players with better quality will beat a lesser side the majority of the time, whoever is in charge.

Of course managers have an influence, but no where near the influence the players have.

How do you explain Burnley getting promoted 2 seasons ago? Or the fact Wolves, Brentford and Ipswich were all in and around the playoffs last season? Or why Derby didn't get promoted despite the quality of Ince, Bent, et al?

Not sure that always rings true in the championship whatsoever.

[Speedie Dived]

How do you explain Burnley getting promoted 2 seasons ago? Or the fact Wolves, Brentford and Ipswich were all in and around the playoffs last season? Or why Derby didn't get promoted despite the quality of Ince, Bent, et al?

Not sure that always rings true in the championship whatsoever.

Burnley had two exceptional players in this league now playing for Liverpool and Tottenham.

Brentford are a funny one and obviously gone down the 'moneyball' route, whatever that means. Loved the lad Pritchard who has now gone back to Spurs, he is real quality. They tend to go for value in a player, but still get quality, just the average man in the street has never heard of them.

I will give you Ipswich, McCarthy has them punching above their weight, McCormack aside i don't really rate them. Even the lad who went to Bournemouth for £8 million was not all that for me.

Derby should have gone up but blew up for some reason. Ironically signing Bent didn't help them at all, he is finished now for me and is far from quality.

[Speedie Dived]

How do you explain Burnley getting promoted 2 seasons ago? Or the fact Wolves, Brentford and Ipswich were all in and around the playoffs last season? Or why Derby didn't get promoted despite the quality of Ince, Bent, et al?

Not sure that always rings true in the championship whatsoever.

And Wolves have lost a good centre half at this level and a very good striker in the summer and have dropped down the league, manager has stayed the same.

[K-Hod]

Norwich as well. Were doing rubbish, got a new manager in then out of nowhere they got promoted.

[mustard]

Burnley had two exceptional players in this league now playing for Liverpool and Tottenham.

Brentford are a funny one and obviously gone down the 'moneyball' route, whatever that means. Loved the lad Pritchard who has now gone back to Spurs, he is real quality. They tend to go for value in a player, but still get quality, just the average man in the street has never heard of them.

I will give you Ipswich, McCarthy has them punching above their weight, McCormack aside i don't really rate them. Even the lad who went to Bournemouth for £8 million was not all that for me.

Derby should have gone up but blew up for some reason. Ironically signing Bent didn't help them at all, he is finished now for me and is far from quality.

Recommend you take a look at Birmingham's squad. Only Demarai Gray who would get a spot in our squad IMO. Rest of them are a team of misfits. Although quality players are the main ingredient in success, I think you're underestimating the difference a good manager makes.

Disagree with your statement in a previous post that Bowyer would have got our last promotion-winning side up. I think he is lacking in key areas that would have cost us at least that extra 10% that Souness brought to the table. Bear in mind we finished four points above Bolton to secure the last automatic place. The quality of the squad might have got us the play-offs but our win % was superb that season and I could never see Bowyer matching that.

[Speedie Dived]

Recommend you take a look at Birmingham's squad. Only Demarai Gray who would get a spot in our squad IMO. Rest of them are a team of misfits. Although quality players are the main ingredient in success, I think you're underestimating the difference a good manager makes.

Disagree with your statement in a previous post that Bowyer would have got our last promotion-winning side up. I think he is lacking in key areas that would have cost us at least that extra 10% that Souness brought to the table. Bear in mind we finished four points above Bolton to secure the last automatic place. The quality of the squad might have got us the play-offs but our win % was superb that season and I could never see Bowyer matching that.

Obviously it's not an exact science there will always be teams that punch above their weight, but as a rule better players win more often than not. Birmingham currently being one, he is a very good player though, chance to go to the top, played well at Ewood.

It's a hypothetical argument anyway, so one we can never prove but i think he would have done.

If you think we got Moyes in tomorrow do you think we would shoot up the league?

[K-Hod]

All good managers build from the back and would make us hard to beat first and foremost- see Mark Hughes.

Good Managers make a team better than the sum of its parts as a collective.

[mustard]

Obviously it's not an exact science there will always be teams that punch above their weight, but as a rule better players win more often than not. Birmingham currently being one, he is a very good player though, chance to go to the top, played well at Ewood.

It's a hypothetical argument anyway, so one we can never prove but i think he would have done.

If you think we got Moyes in tomorrow do you think we would shoot up the league?

Do I think we'd shoot up to the top immediately? No.

However, there is no doubting the man's credentials and I am positive he would bring a different level of quality in staff, training, tactics, ethos, etc. He would be able to attract better players, embargo or no, and will certainly have more/better contacts than Gaz. I am certain we would see improvement very quickly.

I get the impression from Bowyer that the players are on easy street. Draws are celebrated and inconsistency is rewarded. I have no doubt that certain staff members are there due to being pally with Bowyer et al and are not there on merit. I have previously questioned the fitness of a squad that consistently has niggling injuries plaguing squad members and have often thought the team look unfit. Tactically and substitution-wise he leaves a lot to be desired and his transfer record is up for debate.

A better manager will bring better results (imo).

[speeeeeeedie]

Yeah i do. I am firmly of the belief that ultimately better players with better quality will beat a lesser side the majority of the time, whoever is in charge.

Of course managers have an influence, but no where near the influence the players have.

I have to disagree with you.

As has been told to me more than once; football is 90% physical and 10% mental. However, the 10% controls the 90%. Managers are able to work with that 10% and get the best out of players.

Yes, footballers can under perform, but there isn't a massive talent gap between most footballers. That's why you often see promoted sides doing well, and conversely relegated sides doing poorly. It's also why the manager is first to go, and it's not because the club can't get rid of all the players.

[Speedie Dived]

Do I think we'd shoot up to the top immediately? No.

However, there is no doubting the man's credentials and I am positive he would bring a different level of quality in staff, training, tactics, ethos, etc. He would be able to attract better players, embargo or no, and will certainly have more/better contacts than Gaz. I am certain we would see improvement very quickly.

I get the impression from Bowyer that the players are on easy street. Draws are celebrated and inconsistency is rewarded. I have no doubt that certain staff members are there due to being pally with Bowyer et al and are not there on merit. I have previously questioned the fitness of a squad that consistently has niggling injuries plaguing squad members and have often thought the team look unfit. Tactically and substitution-wise he leaves a lot to be desired and his transfer record is up for debate.

A better manager will bring better results (imo).

Yeah that's fair enough and i agree with some of your points that Moyes should bring in some of those things you mentioned above.

I know someone who works at Brockhall and he is adamant that they are not on easy street and he is a genuine Rovers fan, criticises players as much as he praises them. But agree how it does appear sometimes we play safe.