[Archived] Winning Football And/or Attractive Football

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I know this has been done to death but the debate is starting to take over the Lambert topic so thought what the hell. And personally I consider it important because I think fans play a significant part in how well a team plays, and this has only increased in the modern era as fans are now as prone to loudly criticise their team as they are to loudly support it. Loud criticism from fans makes players nervous in possession, unwilling to take risks, unwilling to demand the ball from someone else and in the long-term affects club morale.

Under Big Sam I felt the team were always labouring under a cloud of impatience, hoofball criticism and threats to give up Season Tickets "rather than watch this s****" etc. This was only just held at bay by our consistently good home form and the positivity of the Darwen End fans. But personally I felt as though Sam was rarely happy here and probably felt very underappreciated. Basically what happened at West Ham, where I thought the fans disgruntlement finally wore him and the team down, nearly happened here.

And therein lies my worry with Lambert. Because attractive football isn't the same thing as winning football and I'm sure the latter is what Lambert will be aiming for. Sometimes they interlink, sometimes they don't, and any manager who's number 1 aim is simply to win matches, is going to employ a mix of tactics to do that. You play passing football against Arsenal and they will annihilate you, you play long-ball and you might beat them. There are countless subtly different examples of that depending on who you're playing and what tactics they use, but the point is in a lot of cases playing attractive football won't get the best result. So in a lot of cases I don't expect Lambert will play that way.

Obviously fans are entitled to criticise if their priority is attractive football. But what bugs me is the lack of consistency in people who have this view. Attractive football seems to be the priority right up to the point it doesn't work, and then suddenly its very far from the priority. See Arsenal fans annoyance at Wenger falling short every season, McClaren at Derby, Martinez at Everton last season, Holloway with Blackpool, Coyle with Burnley as examples of this. They're not good managers who played attractive football and won for a while and then suddenly they were ****. They were simply managers who played attractive football and won for a while and then didn't win.

Because attractive football itself has fundamental flaws, by definition it won't work as much as winning football. Its like an Olympic bow and arrow competitor buying a bow with spikes all the way along it so it looks cool. Yeah it'll look cool and yeah if you're good at shooting you'll still get some success with it. But by being designed to look cool and shoot, it suffers compared to the bows that are entirely designed to shoot. So either these fans should clamour for the type of manager listed above and keep being just as happy when they its not producing wins, because either way the priority is still attractive football. Or just abandon the whole flawed obsession and stop demanding that pragmatic, successful managers compromise themselves by pandering to it.

[Iceman]

Football is about winning games, it doesn't matter which way. But too many get caught up by this fixation regarding attractive football. If you don't have the personnel to implement it, then play to your teams strength.

[K-Hod]

I think Lambert is wise enough to make us hard to beat first, but in the way that Sam did in 09/10 once we were safe, play a more attacking game and let the shackles off. Any good manager builds from the back and sorts that out first, fundamentally and especially so in this league you need to be hard to beat and well-organised first imo.

I don't buy into this entertainment lark, I go to the football because I love Blackburn Rovers FC and want to see us do the best we can with the team we have, not to be entertained, I'm not going to a gig or to the theatre. If that means unfashionable, functional football then so be it. I don't think it has to be a case of 'hoofball' or 'tiki-taka'. There are styles in between.

[Mike E]

I'd prefer the style favoured by Kenny and Sparky; hard to bear, down the wing, BOOM!

However I'm a patient guy and winning football IS entertaining to me. Ask any fan how many goals they cheer if they win 2-0. Regardless of footy style the answer is the same: Twice.

[tomphil]

After what we've been through and seen over the past 5 years we should be relieved that after stability was reached there is now a chance to kick on. However it comes we have to be behind it and in this division it's rarely pretty so until we can rebuild the team with more quality i'll take results however they come.

Keep the back line and centre mid solid and hopefully look to add quality and pace in the forward areas then we can expect a bit of flair.

[Mattyblue]

Results, results, results.

On a personal level, I love watching my club win games of football. That relief when the whistle goes, getting the radio on in the car and revelling in a hard fought (or easy) 3 points, getting home and looking at the table, watching that odd show on Channel 5, reading the match report etc. etc.

You only get where you want to be as a club by winning games of football. As I said to Rev yesterday, I honestly can't relate to those that insist on 'playing football the right way' and are happy to be replacing managers that are probably having the club punch above their work in this demand for 'good' football.

Plus, many fans see what they want to see, the style of football under Bowyer was Allardyce esque without the results, last season was 'lump it to Rudy', but without the runners from midfield, threats from set pieces or anything else that made it work under Sam. Yet I don't recall Bowyer being called 'a long ball b*stard'.

If we ever do return to the top flight under Lambert and we again find ourselves as a poor relation in terms of finance, I would hope the fans would let him play any style of football he bloody well pleases as long as it gets results and the club thrives on the PL gravy train.

[blueboy3333]

attractive football that gets results is hardly the holy grail. Hughes did it, so did Kenny. Don Mackay had us playing some great stuff at times when he had no money to spend. On the other hand Kidd and Kean failed miserably trying to play 'the right way'. Hodgson did well at times but ultimately failed.

Allardyce is always held up as an example of how 'winning' football should always be prioritised over 'attractive' football but it misses the point. At WHU, Sunderland, Newcastle and us he came into clubs that were desperate, Being very good at what he does meant those clubs survived, but there comes a time when watching 'percentage' football begins to get old and people want a change. Nothing wrong with that. It backfired on us because we replaced him with an idiot, if we'd replaced him with someone of the calibre of Hughes it wouldn't have mattered and most fans would have been happy. WHU haven't suffered from Big Sams removal and now play better football, are higher in the league and have some decent attacking players.

I'm hoping Lambert can be the next Hughes. Pragmatic enough to know that results are ultimately what matter but also imaginative enough to bring players in that can excite the crowd. A bit like Big Sam did at Bolton really, and which to a large extent he hasn't managed to replicate since. Perhaps he's never being given the time at other clubs.

[den]

Would we like to assemble a team that plays "attractive football" to gain promotion? Yes.

Would we sack a manager who was winning games in an attempt to bring in a manager who "might" play "attractive football"? Surprisingly some still would.

Thing is, it isn't "attractive football" that gets you promoted, it's winning football that gets you promoted, so I would take anything. I guess everyone would take any style of football to get us promoted, which begs the question " why would you change once you were up there"?

[Baz]

I think that there is also a bit of media biasness/manipulation in what is perceived as good football. Managers that claim to be playing good football, tend to be described as that despite the evidence on the pitch.

The only noticeable difference between an Allardyce side and what we have seen since, is that we don't punt every set piece into the opposition area, the actual free-flowing side of the game is little different, if not worse.

Take Martin ONeill as an example, his teams have always been long ball over the top, or up to the target man, but because he says that his team plays good football, the media go along with it.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

What people want to see is goal mouth excitement. Plenty of shots and headers on goal etc. How that is arrived at doesn't bother most people as long as it happens. The more chances you create the more goals you should score. Our problem has been we haven't been creating anything like enough clear cut goal scoring chances over the last few years.

[McClarky]

I don't think you can play dire football and be successful in the medium/long term. Ok for a few weeks but over the course of a season if you don't get men forward and try and win games you ain't going to go up. Not a choice IMO, we have to find ways of creating more chances and scoring more goals. Simple!

[BlueMonday]

Patience!

Continue the winning mentality that lambo is installing and then the flowing attractive football can develop from that. That will take time and and the role we play in that is crucial. We have to try and put the frustrations of the last 5 years to one side and get behind Lambo and the team to give them the breathing space turn it round.

My fear is that people will expect to much too soon and by March if we are not playing expansive flowing football, will start getting on the teams back.

Ask not what the Team can do for you, but what you can do for the team.....

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Agree with most of that Blue Monday but if things haven't noticeably improved by March I'll be a bit worried.

[BlueMonday]

Agree with most of that Blue Monday but if things haven't noticeably improved by March I'll be a bit worried.

Out of all the recent managers we've had, I think we can all agree that Lambo has the credentials to build a successful team. If Venkys back him in the transfer market I personally think the biggest obstacle to him succeeding will be the patience of the fans. Im already getting the vibes that supporters are expecting dramatic changes in style and turning teams over.

I personally think WE will have a bigger impact on how the team develops just now. And while we create a positive atmosphere and give them space, Lambo and his coaching staff can shape the squad to their vision.

Its understandable, but after 5 shambolic years Rovers fans have become conditioned to expect the worst, and if we loose 3 on the bounce, the air raid sirens start sounding. That outlook can become toxic. I think everyone needs to start afresh with this appointment. Im prepared to right this season off and let them build for next season.

So for now, rather than talk about winning football or attractive football, lets talk about unity, rebuilding and believing.

[philipl]

I think if anyone of us were given Lambert 's contract, we wouldnt give a tinkers about any debate about winning vs attractive football.....

If keepy uppy against a brick wall for 90 minutes got us promotion, that's what everyone of us would serve up at Ewood for the rest of the season if we were in PL's shoes.

As it happens we do have one or two players who are genuinely exciting if they are performing at their very best so it might not be that grim once Lambert has found the key to firmly locking the defence shut.

[AllRoverAsia]

In just 3 games Lambert has improved the GD from 0 to +3. Not too bad a start on both scoring more and conceding less. Patience is a virtue.

[JBiz]

I think that there is also a bit of media biasness/manipulation in what is perceived as good football.

This is precisely my thinking and fans go along with the media. For instance, when Mourinho (or was it Arsene?) called us bully boys, it stuck despite our approach being no different than many other robust teams at that time.

Similarly with Allardyce, because we've constantly been told his football is all route one and percentage, some believe rather than watch. I know it's time ago, but how could a team with Jay Jay Okocha be fundementally negative?

The other side to that (as you rightly point out with O'Neill) is how certain managers get the opposite treatment, Rafa Benitez another example. I'm not sure who said it, but I recall someone saying "if you're a big team it's direct football, if you are a small team it's long ball!"

As for the present, it's essentially how it's always been and should be! Results. I'm sure Burnley fans aren't too bothered about the crap they've served up this season when you see their points tally.

Equally, if it takes Chris Browns ass from three yards to beat Rotherham, I'll still be happy!

[Mike E]

This is precisely my thinking and fans go along with the media. For instance, when Mourinho (or was it Arsene?) called us bully boys, it stuck despite our approach being no different than many other robust teams at that time.

Similarly with Allardyce, because we've constantly been told his football is all route one and percentage, some believe rather than watch. I know it's time ago, but how could a team with Jay Jay Okocha be fundementally negative?

The other side to that (as you rightly point out with O'Neill) is how certain managers get the opposite treatment, Rafa Benitez another example. I'm not sure who said it, but I recall someone saying "if you're a big team it's direct football, if you are a small team it's long ball!"

As for the present, it's essentially how it's always been and should be! Results. I'm sure Burnley fans aren't too bothered about the crap they've served up this season when you see their points tally.

Equally, if it takes Chris Browns ass from three yards to beat Rotherham, I'll still be happy!

To go one step futher: a team with JayJay, Gardner, Gary Speed, Campo, Hierro, Djorkaeff, Stelios, Diouf and Nolan.

Negative, my arse.

[JBiz]

I remember Hodgson bringing his (I think!) Fulham side to Ewood against BS, early 2010? we hardly had a touch and won 2-0, it could've been more.

They passed it around their back four for 90 minutes, took all goal kicks and freekicks short and couldn't work the ball past the midfield. They had some pressure but not much, duffer played well for them if I remember correctly!

We scored from set pieces, both centre backs I think- I typified the effectiveness of either manager IMO. I seem to remember thinking about how teams would need to be dynamic to beat us at home as we defended the box stoutly- the argument I had with my dad after that game was the incessant cries for us to play 442 at home despite winning games! Equally, I think we only lost 4 times at home in Sams stint as boss.

My memory might be wrong so apologies if any dates, names etc are wrong. I've not got time to look it up!

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

To go one step futher: a team with JayJay, Gardner, Gary Speed, Campo, Hierro, Djorkaeff, Stelios, Diouf and Nolan.

Negative, my arse.

I remember watching that team and being really impressed with the way they played. Their work rate was exceptional.

[onlyonejackwalker]

I remember watching that team and being really impressed with the way they played. Their work rate was exceptional.

We were all impressed. Winning away at United, beating Wenger, top 8 etc. He did much the same here, but at a slightly lower level without the benefit of 7 or 8 years and more cash. He had some top players at Bolton.

Hughes team here was eventually more creative and could win away. Allardyce was dynamite at home, safe pair of hands and would obviously have changed our style with cash and time.

Strangely I don't recall the same level of interest or debate in our footballing ethos back in the day. We've always played relatively nice football in my view.

I'm not happy if we lose. I'm happy if we win. Results over style for our club, there's way too much at stake.

[Tom]

Paul Lambert: "The secret is to win games. It doesnt matter how you do it because no-one will remember that in a couple of days." #rovers

[Baz]

Doesn't matter how you play if you get the 3 points.

10 points from 4 average performances, can't wait till we start to play well.

[philipl]

People forget that Sam was very much a pioneer of fitness and scientific approach to football.

None matter what he was working with on the park, Sam usually gers that 1 or 2% extra in performance from fitness set up.

[Brown-E]

Doesn't matter how you play if you get the 3 points.

10 points from 4 average performances, can't wait till we start to play well.

Uh ho, sound like the dingles..

People forget that Sam was very much a pioneer of fitness and scientific approach to football.

None matter what he was working with on the park, Sam usually gers that 1 or 2% extra in performance from fitness set up.

Sam is one of cleverest managers of his generation IMO. Really interested to see what he can do at Sunderland as I think he's finally at a club that'll give him time, not to mention a bit of money.