[Archived] Forest

[47er]

I'm sure the criticism of the team's fitness under Bowyer was fair.

You simply cannot make a case that Bowyer's team played a different kind of football therefore they didn't need to be as fit as one under Lambert!

That is ludicrous.

Every team has to be as fit as it can be to maximise its chances of winning. Surely?

[arbitro]

Not sure the criticism of the fitness under Bowyer is fair. We looked far fitter than Ipswich when we battered them 3-0 and just as fit as Burnley when we should have battered them 3-0. The players were fit enough for how Bowyer wanted them to play. Lambert has to get them extra fit if he wants to play a 100mph pressing game for 90 minutes. Under Bowyer we were never knackered for the last 30 mins of a game like t'other night. Different strokes.

I can recall lots of occasions where we were running out of steam during Bowyers tenure. This resulted in sitting deep, inviting pressure and quite often conceding avoidable goals. A real positive from physical fitness comes the mental side which involves concentration. A tired player will mentally switch off as fatigue kicks in. It is something to do with the muscles requiring more oxygen and thus starving the brain (or so I was once told by a sports scientist).

When Lambert (as Hughes before him) alluded to fitness I felt this was in his thinking.

[tomphil]

IF the players can be got fitter then they weren't as fit as they should have been really. I don't think Bowyer was doing it on purpose but his approach wasn't driven enough to beast an extra ten percent out of them that they had in the tank. Having said that it would be difficult for any team to keep up that pace of the first 45 the other night game after game, we have to be realistic.

[blueboy3333]

I can recall lots of occasions where we were running out of steam during Bowyers tenure. This resulted in sitting deep, inviting pressure and quite often conceding avoidable goals. A real positive from physical fitness comes the mental side which involves concentration. A tired player will mentally switch off as fatigue kicks in. It is something to do with the muscles requiring more oxygen and thus starving the brain (or so I was once told by a sports scientist).

When Lambert (as Hughes before him) alluded to fitness I felt this was in his thinking.

fair points, well made!

I think the sitting deep was just how Bowyer played. This season, in the games i mentioned, we did look a lot fitter than in previous seasons under Bowyer. Lambert may just have higher standards!

I'm sure the criticism of the team's fitness under Bowyer was fair.

You simply cannot make a case that Bowyer's team played a different kind of football therefore they didn't need to be as fit as one under Lambert!

That is ludicrous.

Every team has to be as fit as it can be to maximise its chances of winning. Surely?

say what you think, don't sugar-coat it!

A 90 minute pressing game requires a lot higher fitness levels than the two-banks-of-four-sitting-back system that Bowyer employed for most of his time here. It would be ludicrous to think otherwise.

[arbitro]

fair points, well made!

I think the sitting deep was just how Bowyer played. This season, in the games i mentioned, we did look a lot fitter than in previous seasons under Bowyer. Lambert may just have higher standards!

I think it's horses for courses to align with how the manger wants to play I think. Undoubtedly to play at a high tempo the fitness levels need to be really high. I also was once told that the really fit players don't get injured as much as the less fit ones.

There is an old saying that goes train the way you want to play.

[blueboy3333]

IF the players can be got fitter then they weren't as fit as they should have been really. I don't think Bowyer was doing it on purpose but his approach wasn't driven enough to beast an extra ten percent out of them that they had in the tank. Having said that it would be difficult for any team to keep up that pace of the first 45 the other night game after game, we have to be realistic.

That's how he wants them to play though, for a full 90 minutes. I'm sure we will as well as i don't think Lambert is the type to settle for anything less. I agree with Bowyer's approach not being as driven. i don't think Lambert will suffer fools or those that won't die for the cause. It won't be fair to judge him, or the players, till he has a full pre-season with them.

[oldjamfan1]

https://blueyedboy.wordpress.com/2015/12/16/long-ewood-weekend-proved-hard-going-as-rovers-bubble-under/

Here's the other side of the argument. In fairness though i think this chap can be a bit over-critical, he certainly was during Bowyer;s reign. I'm not sure he'd be happy if Guardiola turned up to manage us with Messi in tow.

I like Jim's writing style. Interestingly, his recent epic tribute to the late Howard Kendall saw him wishing we had a Howard Kendall type overseeing the very situation he is (sort of) grumbling about now. Even good writers can be fickle, it seems!

I can recall lots of occasions where we were running out of steam during Bowyers tenure. This resulted in sitting deep, inviting pressure and quite often conceding avoidable goals. A real positive from physical fitness comes the mental side which involves concentration. A tired player will mentally switch off as fatigue kicks in. It is something to do with the muscles requiring more oxygen and thus starving the brain (or so I was once told by a sports scientist).

When Lambert (as Hughes before him) alluded to fitness I felt this was in his thinking.

This is exactly right, and not only were the great Liverpool, Forest and Man Utd teams of the past 30/40 years the best footballers, they were also the fittest!

[Jock]

Michael Gray has mentioned many times that under Hughes we were always going to give anyone a game in the last 10 mins. So if we were winning by then we'd usually see it out or a goal behind get a late equaliser. Would love to see us get a few last minute winners

[Pedro]

Michael Gray has mentioned many times that under Hughes we were always going to give anyone a game in the last 10 mins. So if we were winning by then we'd usually see it out or a goal behind get a late equaliser. Would love to see us get a few last minute winners

The good old days. Wave after wave of attacks in the last ten mins. We always seemed camped in the opposition's box.

I miss the Souness era too where Dunn would split a high lined defence with a diagonal through ball to Jansen. One on ones have been as rare as hens teeth these past three years.

[yoda]

2 points for a win and if you are level with the last defender you are bloody well OFFSIDE!

What's offside ?

[Stand & Deliver]

You're either fit or unfit - There's no middle ground! IMO with all the sports science knowledge, equipment and strength and conditioning coaches available, being fit is a bloody minimal requirement!

[yoda]

fair points, well made!

I think the sitting deep was just how Bowyer played. This season, in the games i mentioned, we did look a lot fitter than in previous seasons under Bowyer. Lambert may just have higher standards!

say what you think, don't sugar-coat it!

A 90 minute pressing game requires a lot higher fitness levels than the two-banks-of-four-sitting-back system that Bowyer employed for most of his time here. It would be ludicrous to think otherwise.

Professional footballers should be in peak physical condition, ours were not under GB, that is from a sports scientist, who also though our pre season was a waste of time. With a few noteable exception footballers are not fit enough, no where near as fit as tennis players and cyclists

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

You're either fit or unfit - There's no middle ground! IMO with all the sports science knowledge, equipment and strength and conditioning coaches available, being fit is a bloody minimal requirement!

Sorry but that's rubbish. Fit or unfit isn't a black and white, like blue eyes or brown eyes. Its a spectrum like most things.

Mo Farah is fitter than Eden Hazard, who's fitter than Brad Friedel, who's fitter than a good amateur player, who's fitter than an average person, who's fitter than Rik Waller, who's fitter than the oldest man alive (probably).

And as someone pointed out in a previous comment, and as is constantly ignored by football fans, it doesn't matter how fit or good or dedicated or whatever compared to some set judgement about what you earn. What matters is how fit or good you are compared to your opposite number. Our squad under Hughes, lauded for fitness though they were, would have looked criminally unfit against Barcelona or Bayern Munich.

So its not a simple "get fit, you're a professional!". Its how much fitter can we get our guys compared to other professionals, and I doubt there's a whole lot of wriggle room left in the modern game. The fitness argument is somewhat overblown for me, Klopp's Liverpool are running more because he's instructed them to play a certain way, I seriously doubt they're running more now because they physically couldn't before.

[JAL]

If we carry on the way we are there's no reason we can't continue to go on a run.

That being said, you're right, we desparately need to get some reinforcements in January. I'm just glad we can again!!

Yep ! Let's hope they dont throw this opportunity away.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

Though the buck stops with the manager - do we not have an army of fitness experts at Brockhall ? Have they changed since PL took over ?

I only ask - if the players weren't fit under Bowyer - surely they share some of that responsibility ?

The mental and motivation side is another thing.

[Amo]

Bowyer's side was conditioned to play within its comfort zone, just like the manager. They only came to life once they went behind and the onus was on them to get back into the game. It will take time for them to unlearn that mentality and get physically up to speed with Lambert's style of play.

[Stand & Deliver]

Sorry but that's rubbish. Fit or unfit isn't a black and white, like blue eyes or brown eyes. Its a spectrum like most things.

Mo Farah is fitter than Eden Hazard, who's fitter than Brad Friedel, who's fitter than a good amateur player, who's fitter than an average person, who's fitter than Rik Waller, who's fitter than the oldest man alive (probably).

And as someone pointed out in a previous comment, and as is constantly ignored by football fans, it doesn't matter how fit or good or dedicated or whatever compared to some set judgement about what you earn. What matters is how fit or good you are compared to your opposite number. Our squad under Hughes, lauded for fitness though they were, would have looked criminally unfit against Barcelona or Bayern Munich.

So its not a simple "get fit, you're a professional!". Its how much fitter can we get our guys compared to other professionals, and I doubt there's a whole lot of wriggle room left in the modern game. The fitness argument is somewhat overblown for me, Klopp's Liverpool are running more because he's instructed them to play a certain way, I seriously doubt they're running more now because they physically couldn't before.

Ok then I meant in terms of playing football. Sorry but that's a load of tosh too! Hughes beasted our squad and from what I can muster we were one of the fittest teams about. He actually used Bayern as a bench mark! Listen, when I train if I don't hit my targets I ain't fit. It's that simple.

[Salgado Is Still A Hero]

Though the buck stops with the manager - do we not have an army of fitness experts at Brockhall ? Have they changed since PL took over ?

I only ask - if the players weren't fit under Bowyer - surely they share some of that responsibility ?

The mental and motivation side is another thing.

The buck stops with the manager, who is in charge of the fitness staff.

If the players were all incredibly fit, we wouldn't be giving the credit to them, we would be giving it to the manager and his staff.

[Steve Moss]

I think it's horses for courses to align with how the manger wants to play I think. Undoubtedly to play at a high tempo the fitness levels need to be really high. I also was once told that the really fit players don't get injured as much as the less fit ones.

There is an old saying that goes train the way you want to play.

In the Marine Corps the saying was the more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war. Sports are probably the same.