[Archived] Rovers V Reading Sun 20Th Dec

[blueboy3333]

Bowyer brought in c36 players, most of whom weren't good enough. How much in total, - fees and wages did that cost? The squad he finished with, is in front of us now. It had won three games this season, Lambert is struggling to get a performance out of them as well - yet he was a good manager who had us on the right tracks according to some.

Do me a favour!

If you want to put an argument together do the research on how much they cost, how many were youth players. how many were loans, how many were back-up players etc. Just saying he brought 36 players in is redundant. It's pretty much the norm for the Championship to have a high turnover of players, especially when Bowyer had to start from scratch. We lost more than 50 players in that time just to clarify the point.

Lambert was brought in to get more out of the players. The performances have gone backwards under Lambert. Thankfully the results have improved. Lets hope that continues once we play some decent teams cos Lambo has been lucky so far with the fixtures he's had. The first semi-difficult away game and we lost.

[den]

If you want to put an argument together do the research on how much they cost, how many were youth players. how many were loans, how many were back-up players etc. Just saying he brought 36 players in is redundant. It's pretty much the norm for the Championship to have a high turnover of players, especially when Bowyer had to start from scratch. We lost more than 50 players in that time just to clarify the point.

Lambert was brought in to get more out of the players. The performances have gone backwards under Lambert. Thankfully the results have improved. Lets hope that continues once we play some decent teams cos Lambo has been lucky so far with the fixtures he's had. The first semi-difficult away game and we lost.

You do the research. You're the one who only includes the actual fee paid for a player - as though the other players don't cost anything.

[DE.]

I struggle to see how Lambert has been lucky with the fixtures. I'd class Rotherham and Bristol City as the only teams in his first six fixtures that we could reasonably expect to get all three points from, and we did. We also managed three points from a tricky away fixture at Preston and a decent draw against a Sheff Weds side who just thrashed Wolves 4-1.

The last two games have been disappointing, yes, but I'm absolutely sure Bowyer would have gotten nowhere near the points haul that Lambert has achieved since he arrived. That's a measure of progress, and moaning about performances levels being 'down' since Lambert arrived is redundant - how good could performances have really been if we'd only won 3 matches out of 17?

[blueboy3333]

Promotion eventually yes, but ultimately getting the players fitter, tighter defensively and making us harder to beat initially. Because of the poor start to this season I don't expect anything to happen right away, but given Lambert equalled the amount of wins Bowyer gained all season in his first 4 games, it's hardly unreasonable to say the side was under-achieving and not doing the best they could. A good manager makes the team better than the sum of its parts, and I've much more faith in Lambert to get that done than Bowyer, becuase he's won promotion as a manager before and has a far better track record.

These debates have been done to death but utlimately, Bowyer has gone, Lambert is here we all need to move on.

this season they were, but you called him a 'failure'. He was here 3 years. You still haven't explained why he was a failure? You seem to be back-tracking now and saying Lambert should get us promotion 'eventually'. This suggests you don't think the team/squad is good enough. Thus Bowyer hardly failed, he just didn't have the time/resources to achieve promotion. If you want to 'move on' then may i suggest you at least back up your claims with a cogent argument instead of meaningless one-liners I think your plea may be futile though since there's a lot of people who still want to chip in on the Bowyer debate. It will rear it's head from time to time as for some reason he still upsets posters on here. People will 'move on' when they're ready i suppose. Re-opening the Bowyer thread may be an idea so posters have somewhere to vent

You do the research. You're the one who only includes the actual fee paid for a player - as though the other players don't cost anything.

it was your post, i just thought you'd like to back up your generalisations with some context.

Anyway, i already did the research the last time you came up with the 36 players argument. I started a thread that listed all the players that Championship clubs had signed during Bowyers tenure. 36 over 3 years was about average, some had signed many more. Context.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Etuhu was last seen falling over in the Swedish 3rd division. Orr retired cos he was past it. Best is now fighting people in Rotherham. Murphy was finished, and Goodwillie is now back in the SPL doing not much at all. They looked good on paper but their careers after Rovers suggests they were a pile of overpaid dross. I can't believe any Rovers fan who saw them play would argue otherwise.

I agree the 5 you mentioned have gone on to nothing. But then at one point they were good so what's the actual truth? Somewhere in the middle I would argue, I still think a decent manager would have been able to get us into the play-offs with them. In 2012/13 Kean took 14 points from 8 games, Black 9 from 6 and Bowyer himself 19 from 12 playing the high earners. And then there's Dann who I suspect you missed out intentionally who Bowyer could never get a performance out of and has since gone back to his Birmingham days as one of the best defenders in the PL. I do take your point to an extent though. Most of the real quality (Olsson, Givet, Yakubu, N'Zonzi, Hoilett, Pedersen, Salgado) had already gone before Bowyer's first full season.

Still don't buy the steadying the ship argument though from the start of the 12/13 season onwards. The ship stopped being rocked when Appleton was sacked, so how long does it take to steady it? Bowyer had 12 games at the end of that season and then a full summer to work with the squad, and I don't recall Venkys doing anything to hinder him during this spell. Using an excuse that has long since expired is rather Kean-esque, but I don't actually recall Bowyer ever using club disruption as an excuse, its more fans that have used it on his behalf.

[K-Hod]

this season they were, but you called him a 'failure'. He was here 3 years. You still haven't explained why he was a failure? You seem to be back-tracking now and saying Lambert should get us promotion 'eventually'. This suggests you don't think the team/squad is good enough. Thus Bowyer hardly failed, he just didn't have the time/resources to achieve promotion. If you want to 'move on' then may i suggest you at least back up your claims with a cogent argument instead of meaningless one-liners I think your plea may be futile though since there's a lot of people who still want to chip in on the Bowyer debate. It will rear it's head from time to time as for some reason he still upsets posters on here. People will 'move on' when they're ready i suppose. Re-opening the Bowyer thread may be an idea so posters have somewhere to vent

No I didn't, I said 'Bowyer's failures', if you're going to try and smear me, at least do it accurately. Bowyer's failures= not making us hard to beat, giving away late goals, the players not being fit enough, not getting the most out of the squad, not utilising players properly (Judge/Cairney/King). Imagine what Lambert could do with those three in our squad!

You say Bowyer didn't have the resources, but with Rhodes and Gestede he had a strikeforce most clubs would be envious of, it's to his detriment he didn't focus on making us harder to breach at the back as we had no problem scoring goals did we?

I've got plenty of good arguments, I've also given them several times before and am bored of the whole argument. Bowyer has gone, and thank God too. He can't dine out on saving us from relegation forever.

[blueboy3333]

I agree the 5 you mentioned have gone on to nothing. But then at one point they were good so what's the actual truth? Somewhere in the middle I would argue, I still think a decent manager would have been able to get us into the play-offs with them. In 2012/13 Kean took 14 points from 8 games, Black 9 from 6 and Bowyer himself 19 from 12 playing the high earners. And then there's Dann who I suspect you missed out intentionally who Bowyer could never get a performance out of and has since gone back to his Birmingham days as one of the best defenders in the PL. I do take your point to an extent though. Most of the real quality (Olsson, Givet, Yakubu, N'Zonzi, Hoilett, Pedersen, Salgado) had already gone before Bowyer's first full season.

Still don't buy the steadying the ship argument though from the start of the 12/13 season onwards. The ship stopped being rocked when Appleton was sacked, so how long does it take to steady it? Bowyer had 12 games at the end of that season and then a full summer to work with the squad, and I don't recall Venkys doing anything to hinder him during this spell. Using an excuse that has long since expired is rather Kean-esque, but I don't actually recall Bowyer ever using club disruption as an excuse, its more fans that have used it on his behalf.

we were on for consecutive relegations. Bowyer stopped that and then has us just outside the play-offs in his 1st full season. He did a lot more than steady the ship. It didn't happen on it's own. Bowyer made it happen. You know these things happened so i don't really know what point you are trying to make?

[RevidgeBlue]

The argument about GB being good at spotting a player is somewhat of a moot one as he doesn't seem to have a clue what to do with them when he gets them.

I don't actually think he's that great at spotting players anyway, he brought well in excess of 30 players in so simply on the law of averages you'd expect a few good 'uns in there.

Only Gestede proved an outstanding success. Cairney was sold at a big profit totally unexpectedly after a poor season and doesn't appear to having much of an influence on Fulham's fortunes. Judge was signed and discarded and has gone on to be a roaring success elsewhere. Ditto Nick Blackman at Reading who wasn't even given a chance here.

And as den says, the overall cost of the thirty odd players GB signed must be absolutely massive in terms of wages and agents fees. I cant see the Club can have made much profit on them, the only people happy will be the players' respective agents.

[blueboy3333]

No I didn't, I said 'Bowyer's failures', if you're going to try and smear me, at least do it accurately. Bowyer's failures= not making us hard to beat, giving away late goals, the players not being fit enough, not getting the most out of the squad, not utilising players properly (Judge/Cairney/King). Imagine what Lambert could do with those three in our squad!

You say Bowyer didn't have the resources, but with Rhodes and Gestede he had a strikeforce most clubs would be envious of, it's to his detriment he didn't focus on making us harder to breach at the back as we had no problem scoring goals did we?

I've got plenty of good arguments, I've also given them several times before and am bored of the whole argument. Bowyer has gone, and thank God too. He can't dine out on saving us from relegation forever.

Ha, I think 'smear' is a tad strong! If the only thing you think he did was avoid relegation then i think we have reached the end...thankfully

[RevidgeBlue]

Ha, I think 'smear' is a tad strong! If the only thing you think he did was avoid relegation then i think we have reached the end...thankfully

I take it from this you're inferring he managed to shift out the bad apples. You'd have a stronger argument on this if GB had managed to sell the likes of Murphy, Best, and Etuhu for decent fees or at least swapped them for players who in marked contrast went on to be a success.

As it was the owners simply paid them off for him to allow him to bring yet more players in. It's hardly a ringing endorsement of GB's credentials is it?

[blueboy3333]

The argument about GB being good at spotting a player is somewhat of a moot one as he doesn't seem to have a clue what to do with them when he gets them.

I don't actually think he's that great at spotting players anyway, he brought well in excess of 30 players in so simply on the law of averages you'd expect a few good 'uns in there.

Only Gestede proved an outstanding success. Cairney was sold at a big profit totally unexpectedly after a poor season and doesn't appear to having much of an influence on Fulham's fortunes. Judge was signed and discarded and has gone on to be a roaring success elsewhere. Ditto Nick Blackman at Reading who wasn't even given a chance here.

And as den says, the overall cost of the thirty odd players GB signed must be absolutely massive in terms of wages and agents fees. I cant see the Club can have made much profit on them, the only people happy will be the players' respective agents.

The agents point is moot, everybody has to pay them, not just Rovers...and like i explained to Den, Rovers signing 36 players wasn't close to the number other clubs signed in the same period. Operating at a profit with his transfer dealings suggest he really could spot a player and get them performing. He could have also got a £4m profit on Rhodes. He did get a £500k profit on Judge but i agree we should have kept him. Judge wanted to play 1st team football though so who would you have dropped?

Cairney has been playing well for Fulham, like he did in his 1st season here.

Making any profit is good business. GB made enough to take us to the point of exiting the embargo. Fortunately venkies wised up before we had to sell anyone else.

[Mattyblue]

we were on for consecutive relegations. Bowyer stopped that and then has us just outside the play-offs in his 1st full season. He did a lot more than steady the ship. It didn't happen on it's own. Bowyer made it happen. You know these things happened so i don't really know what point you are trying to make?

He sure did and there was a hell of a lot of goodwill for the bloke going into the start of last season, remember the opening night against Cardiff? There was a real feeling that we could well.

However, from Christmas, I felt we quickly saw a decline in performance that continued into this campaign.

Why? many reasons, one being the inability to keep clean sheets would catch up with us eventually, as would our lack of fitness and recognisible gameplan apart from 'lump it to Rudy'.

I also do feel that the constant reference to how much of a struggle it would be under the embargo became a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy, Lambert's 'acceptance of mediocrity' line really resonating with me.

[blueboy3333]

I take it from this you're inferring he managed to shift out the bad apples. You'd have a stronger argument on this if GB had managed to sell the likes of Murphy, Best, and Etuhu for decent fees or at least swapped them for players who in marked contrast went on to be a success.

As it was the owners simply paid them off for him to allow him to bring yet more players in. It's hardly a ringing endorsement of GB's credentials is it?

Strange logic. Murphy was retiring, Etuhu was finished, Best only managed to get fixed up after 6 months out of the game, and only then at Rotherham. I don't see how this is Bowyers fault. They put Best on the transfer list, nobody wanted him. Not a lot Bowyer could do. he can't force clubs to take players he didn't sign, weren't good enough and were retiring anyway.

[JBiz]

People downgraded their expectations and aspirations in line with Bowyer's failings, which was tragic. Aim low, and that's where you end up.

Expectations are for fans.

Aims are for the owners of football clubs.

Don't get mixed up. When the owners have shown nothing but absolute idiocy, you can't think fans should have high expectations.

To be fair, it's my opinion that nobody could've predicted that GB would be replaced by so much experience and quality, so let's not pretend "I was right all along" when the aim looked like stability at best.

[K-Hod]

Expectations are for fans.

Aims are for the owners of football clubs.

Don't get mixed up. When the owners have shown nothing but absolute idiocy, you can't think fans should have high expectations.

To be fair, it's my opinion that nobody could've predicted that GB would be replaced by so much experience and quality, so let's not pretend "I was right all along" when the aim looked like stability at best.

I'll be honest though Joe, you can surely forgive me for being slightly smug now we have an experienced manager at the helm, despite constantly being assured Bowyer was the best we could hope for. So glad Lambert said the 'acceptance of mediocrity' line, as like Matty, it really resonated with me.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

we were on for consecutive relegations. Bowyer stopped that and then has us just outside the play-offs in his 1st full season. He did a lot more than steady the ship. It didn't happen on it's own. Bowyer made it happen. You know these things happened so i don't really know what point you are trying to make?

Yeah credit to him in 2012/13, he steadied the ship and kept us up. I buy that for those 12 games because Appleton and Berg had landed us in trouble.

After that I just don't agree with the approach of using mitigating circumstances to enhance his results. There weren't any mitigating circumstances. He managed us in 2013/14 just as any manager manages a club and we finished 8th. Did we have the 8th best squad in the league that season in your opinion? With the likes of Kane, Hanley, King, Dunn, Rhodes, Olsson, Conway, Gestede, Cairney, Dann and Judge at his disposal, I'd say he underachieved. And then underachieved the next season, and then underachieved this season.

So 15 games steadying the ship in 2012/13, 109 games underachieving in 2013-15. The point I'm trying to make is Bowyer was an underachiever for Rovers, not a ship steadier. If you're going to defend him then I honestly can't see how you can criticise Lambert for anything mid-table and above, this season and future ones.

[JBiz]

I'll be honest though Joe, you can surely forgive me for being slightly smug now we have an experienced manager at the helm, despite constantly being assured Bowyer was the best we could hope for. So glad Lambert said the 'acceptance of mediocrity' line, as like Matty, it really resonated with me.

Smugness based on an obvious notion that to do well we'd fair better with a manager as opposed to a coach? Captain obvious...

You know as well as I do that the most likely outcome was more mediocrity, but both of us can agree that appointing a real manager(s) was the best course of action - even if at the time it never looked like happening.

If you want a pat on the back for saying that experience is better than being a novice, I'm afraid this is the wrong place

[blueboy3333]

He sure did and there was a hell of a lot of goodwill for the bloke going into the start of last season, remember the opening night against Cardiff? There was a real feeling that we could well.

However, from Christmas, I felt we quickly saw a decline in performance that continued into this campaign.

Why? many reasons, one being the inability to keep clean sheets would catch up with us eventually, as would our lack of fitness and recognisible gameplan apart from 'lump it to Rudy'.

I also do feel that the constant reference to how much of a struggle it would be under the embargo became a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy, Lambert's 'acceptance of mediocrity' line really resonating with me.

Optimism was high at the beginning of the season which i think is a testament to the job Bowyer had done. Yes, it did start to go wrong 12 months ago, just as we breached the top 6. I think the cup run saved him to a degree. The likes of Marshall and Cairney started to lose form and the lack of options/quality in central midfield hampered us. Our defence had always been suspect, which GB only really sorted out this season, ironically. Duffy was awful last year but seems to have come back a lot stronger since summer. All these factors play a part. Trouble with Bowyer is that he never consistently addressed key areas in our play. We were either scoring & conceding a lot or scoring few but shutting up shop. He never quite mastered the scoring lots and conceding few!

Lambert probably has a point about 'accepting mediocrity' but i think it was a cheap shot. No need to say it in the press. He does talk a good game though! His funniest comment was not using the embargo as an 'excuse'. He said this a week before it was announced we were coming out of it and he will have known full well it was imminent, Degsy had said as much in the press. Lets hope his team do the talking on the pitch.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Smugness based on an obvious notion that to do well we'd fair better with a manager as opposed to a coach? Captain obvious...

You know as well as I do that the most likely outcome was more mediocrity, but both of us can agree that appointing a real manager(s) was the best course of action - even if at the time it never looked like happening.

If you want a pat on the back for saying that experience is better than being a novice, I'm afraid this is the wrong place

Especially when the smugness, if any is warranted, should belong to the people who appointed Lambert.

It does make me smile the ones crowing over Lambert's appointment are, in effect, saying, "I trusted our owners' intentions and abilities all along and you didn't, so that makes me, errr..."

[K-Hod]

Especially when the smugness, if any is warranted, should belong to the people who appointed Lambert.

It does make me smile the ones crowing over Lambert's appointment are, in effect, saying, "I trusted our owners' intentions and abilities all along and you didn't, so that makes me, errr..."

Not saying any of that at all to be fair. It just flies in the face of people justifying keeping Bowyer as 'we won't get anyone better'.

What is it with people putting words in others' mouths today?....

I still don't really trust the owners if I'm honest, just glad that by extension they picked an actual manager after years of appointing coaches.

[Amo]

Optimism was high at the beginning of the season which i think is a testament to the job Bowyer had done. Yes, it did start to go wrong 12 months ago, just as we breached the top 6. I think the cup run saved him to a degree. The likes of Marshall and Cairney started to lose form and the lack of options/quality in central midfield hampered us. Our defence had always been suspect, which GB only really sorted out this season, ironically. Duffy was awful last year but seems to have come back a lot stronger since summer. All these factors play a part. Trouble with Bowyer is that he never consistently addressed key areas in our play. We were either scoring & conceding a lot or scoring few but shutting up shop. He never quite mastered the scoring lots and conceding few!

Lambert probably has a point about 'accepting mediocrity' but i think it was a cheap shot. No need to say it in the press. He does talk a good game though! His funniest comment was not using the embargo as an 'excuse'. He said this a week before it was announced we were coming out of it and he will have known full well it was imminent, Degsy had said as much in the press. Lets hope his team do the talking on the pitch.

No doubt once Bowyer has found a new club you'll be joining him there?

[blueboy3333]

No doubt once Bowyer has found a new club you'll be joining him there?

Possibly, so you can take my place at ewood. I'll send you directions.

[tomphil]

Christ ONE defeat and it's sparked to old pro/against GB. Just wait till we really are on a bad run

[Amo]

Possibly, so you can take my place at ewood. I'll send you directions.

[blueboy3333]

Watch out, this kid's got google pics!

Just head north from your southern grief-hole. Turn right at Preston. The spiritual home of football is straight ahead.