[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[yoda]

About as charming as Obama sticking his nose in, what has he achieved for the USA since becoming President.

None of the the items he said he would prior. Messed up in Libya which he now concedes, didn't close Guatanamo, didn't control the gun lobby, didn't sort the health bill out, biggest terrorist attack on the USA on his watch, record deficit, the list goes on.

He then proposes that we do something that the USA would never do, give up sovereignty,

hypocrite.

[K-Hod]

About as charming as Obama sticking his nose in, what has he achieved for the USA since becoming President.

None of the the items he said he would prior. Messed up in Libya which he now concedes, didn't close Guatanamo, didn't control the gun lobby, didn't sort the health bill out, biggest terrorist attack on the USA on his watch, record deficit, the list goes on.

He then proposes that we do something that the USA would never do, give up sovereignty,

hypocrite.

Without wanting to take things off topic too much... Are you saying that any of the attacks under his watch were worse than 9/11? He ended the war in Iraq, he got the last troops out by the end of 2011 and Osama Bin Laden was killed under his watch. There are other things I'm sure! (That's what immediately springs to mind).

Back to the original point, what has the nationality of his father got to do with anything?

[RibbleValleyRover]

The EU debate has only highlighted that Boris would be a disastrous PM. He's had a shocking campaign with not knowing his facts and figures and coming out with some truly outrageous statements.

Some people may like Boris' buffoonery but do you really want him running the country or representing the UK on the world stage? I think he would be a complete disaster.

[Steve Moss]

About as charming as Obama sticking his nose in, what has he achieved for the USA since becoming President.

None of the the items he said he would prior. Messed up in Libya which he now concedes, didn't close Guatanamo, didn't control the gun lobby, didn't sort the health bill out, biggest terrorist attack on the USA on his watch, record deficit, the list goes on.

He then proposes that we do something that the USA would never do, give up sovereignty,

hypocrite.

If by "biggest terrorist attack on the USA", you mean the rise of ISIS and it was poor word choice, I agree with you. But 9/11 was the worst against the USA. Also on that point, and in your defense, terror attacks have been increasing on his watch, not decreasing, and the world is far less stable since he's entered office.

And the rest is spot on. Obama has been an unmitigated disaster.

[yoda]

The EU debate has only highlighted that Boris would be a disastrous PM. He's had a shocking campaign with not knowing his facts and figures and coming out with some truly outrageous statements.

Some people may like Boris' buffoonery but do you really want him running the country or representing the UK on the world stage? I think he would be a complete disaster.

Never said I want him running the country, while we are on buffoonery I don't want this country run from the EU, on a par with the lunes in Pune that lot

Without wanting to take things off topic too much... Are you saying that any of the attacks under his watch were worse than 9/11? He ended the war in Iraq, he got the last troops out by the end of 2011 and Osama Bin Laden was killed under his watch. There are other things I'm sure! (That's what immediately springs to mind).

Back to the original point, what has the nationality of his father got to do with anything?

It has nothing to do with it as far as I can see, just like Obama suggesting to a foreign country to do something his country would never do. He should get his own backyard in order before spouting what GREAT Britain should do.

If by "biggest terrorist attack on the USA", you mean the rise of ISIS and it was poor word choice, I agree with you. But 9/11 was the worst against the USA. Also on that point, and in your defense, terror attacks have been increasing on his watch, not decreasing, and the world is far less stable since he's entered office.

And the rest is spot on. Obama has been an unmitigated disaster.

Yep it should have read USA and the world, which Obama could have prevented. I doubt the Cuba scenario will be sorted before he finishes.

What will his legacy be ?

[K-Hod]

I don't think history will be kind to many recent leaders Yoda tbh. People tend to cherry pick when recounting legacies as far as I can see.

[Steve Moss]

I don't think history will be kind to many recent leaders Yoda tbh. People tend to cherry pick when recounting legacies as far as I can see.

Modern politicians have one objective, win re-election. They are careerists. Unlike their predecessors, who were respected farmers, merchants, sailors, soldiers, scholars, attorneys, doctors, etc., the current crop only have politics. If they don't win, then their careers are over. So they will do anything, say anything, to win. They have no core principles other than career advancement.

And as the old adage goes "Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.".

I would dearly love a Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Lincoln, or Eisenhower. But I think they would commit the cardinal sin of politics, and would fail to pander to the electorate. We as an electorate are so far detached from the realities of the world, we would turn our faces from the men who would dare speak hard truths.

We get the politicians we deserve. And a more politically correct, milquetoast bunch I couldn't imagine. And we expect men of that low caliber to preserve our life, liberty and property? We are fools.

[only2garners]

About as charming as Obama sticking his nose in, what has he achieved for the USA since becoming President.

None of the the items he said he would prior. Messed up in Libya which he now concedes, didn't close Guatanamo, didn't control the gun lobby, didn't sort the health bill out, biggest terrorist attack on the USA on his watch, record deficit, the list goes on.

He then proposes that we do something that the USA would never do, give up sovereignty,

hypocrite.

Well he's considerably improved relations with both Iran and Cuba. I'm not quite sure what more he could realistically he could have done with health and guns given the difficulties he has with the other two arms of the Government.

[yoda]

Well he's considerably improved relations with both Iran and Cuba. I'm not quite sure what more he could realistically he could have done with health and guns given the difficulties he has with the other two arms of the Government.

They were the tickets he got elected on

[RibbleValleyRover]

Sir Nicholas Soames the Conservative MP and Winston Churchill's grandson launched a stinging attack on Boris today:

http://www.lbc.co.uk/stinging-criticism-for-boris-over-obama-article-129218

[Al]

Deleted. It was a reply to an out of date post.

[yoda]

Watched Obama this morning in the Lindley Hall, how did the USA elect this guy, he came across as not well informed, lacking charisma and at times fumbling for things to say.

One particular statement got my attention though, he replied to a question about trade deals, part of his answer was about the ongoing negotiations on the EU USA trade deal and he said that it was part of deals now to ensure workers rights and democracy standards along with financial regulations with the countries being negotiated with and that these issues are not a problem with the UK.

Well how the hell does that put a UK out of the EU at the back off the queue Mr President ?

I think it is pretty obvious that Obama has been had over by Boy George etc as an American would never describe waiting as a queue, they would say at the end of the line.

Am I correct in that assumption Steve Moss ?

[Steve Moss]

Watched Obama this morning in the Lindley Hall, how did the USA elect this guy, he came across as not well informed, lacking charisma and at times fumbling for things to say.

One particular statement got my attention though, he replied to a question about trade deals, part of his answer was about the ongoing negotiations on the EU USA trade deal and he said that it was part of deals now to ensure workers rights and democracy standards along with financial regulations with the countries being negotiated with and that these issues are not a problem with the UK.

Well how the hell does that put a UK out of the EU at the back off the queue Mr President ?

I think it is pretty obvious that Obama has been had over by Boy George etc as an American would never describe waiting as a queue, they would say at the end of the line.

Am I correct in that assumption Steve Moss ?

I don't think it would surprise anyone that my opinion of President Obama is very low. I think he's an intelligent man, but he has no real world business or military experience. He sees everything from a law and politics perspective, which is very limited.

The USA and the UK each have a reliable ally in the other. That's invaluable on the larger world stage. If it were up to me, there would be an immediate free trade, work and travel zone composed of the USA, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand (and a few others I'm doubtless forgetting). We have common language, law, history and culture. Why our brilliant leaders haven't done so before now amazes me.

And I think Obama's influence in the USA is waning rapidly. I think it unlikely that the UK would be placed at the end of the "queue" (no American would use that word, which makes me think there was some English speechwriters involved). Trump, Cruz or even Clinton would have the UK at the front of the line, which is appropriate.

[yoda]

I don't think it would surprise anyone that my opinion of President Obama is very low. I think he's an intelligent man, but he has no real world business or military experience. He sees everything from a law and politics perspective, which is very limited.

The USA and the UK each have a reliable ally in the other. That's invaluable on the larger world stage. If it were up to me, there would be an immediate free trade, work and travel zone composed of the USA, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand (and a few others I'm doubtless forgetting). We have common language, law, history and culture. Why our brilliant leaders haven't done so before now amazes me.

And I think Obama's influence in the USA is waning rapidly. I think it unlikely that the UK would be placed at the end of the "queue" (no American would use that word, which makes me think there was some English speechwriters involved). Trump, Cruz or even Clinton would have the UK at the front of the line, which is appropriate.

You can safely add Singapore, India, Switzerland, Japan and Malaysia I would say along with most of the Caribbean,

Cracking idea by the way

EDIT

A lot of people do not realise the common wealth is made up of 53 countries with 2.2 billion people.

Common language, laws and an affinity to the UK.

Ready made market to trade with as we used to do.

[Paul]

I watched an excellent debate on Newsnight last week. Three from each side of the campaign engaged in an informative and civilised discussion unlike most of the junk debate and statements to date.

One question raised in my mind is this. If these world opportunities and markets exist, and I'm sure they do, why does British business not exploit them? I think this needs answering by the out campaign as it makes no sense to state these opportunities exist and effectively imply British business currently ignores them.

Another point I was wondering about is the Commonwealth. Is there free movement of labour in the Commonwealth? If not and it was demanded as part of a trade deal should we accept this a a term of a new deal?

[BiggusLaddus]

As the commonwealth was born from the ashes of the empire I would have no problem with free movement of people. There would need to be some form of practical controls in place due to the numbers of people involved (i.e. the 1.2bn in India), but if people from former colonies wish to move here then we 'owe' them that opportunity due to our expansionist past.

Conversely we have never been colonial masters of Europe and have not been expansionist within Europe for the better part of a millennium (even then it was all about the marriages and inheritances of frenchmen). So we do not 'owe' the same debt to europeans.

[yoda]

I watched an excellent debate on Newsnight last week. Three from each side of the campaign engaged in an informative and civilised discussion unlike most of the junk debate and statements to date.

One question raised in my mind is this. If these world opportunities and markets exist, and I'm sure they do, why does British business not exploit them? I think this needs answering by the out campaign as it makes no sense to state these opportunities exist and effectively imply British business currently ignores them.

Another point I was wondering about is the Commonwealth. Is there free movement of labour in the Commonwealth? If not and it was demanded as part of a trade deal should we accept this a a term of a new deal?

Not 100% sure about it but being a member of the EU stops us negotiating separate trade deals

[Al]

As the commonwealth was born from the ashes of the empire I would have no problem with free movement of people. There would need to be some form of practical controls in place due to the numbers of people involved (i.e. the 1.2bn in India), but if people from former colonies wish to move here then we 'owe' them that opportunity due to our expansionist past.

Conversely we have never been colonial masters of Europe and have not been expansionist within Europe for the better part of a millennium (even then it was all about the marriages and inheritances of frenchmen). So we do not 'owe' the same debt to europeans.

We do not owe anybody the right of entry into Britain. I do not believe in the "sins of the fathers". We should adopt Australia's immigration policy Or even the USA's policy thank you Mr Obama.

[dave birch]

We do not owe anybody the right of entry into Britain. I do not believe in the "sins of the fathers". We should adopt Australia's immigration policy Or even the USA's policy thank you Mr Obama.

Can't disagree with that, Al.

Allow certain visas for backpackers, visitors etc, for a couple of years, but a points score to be met, or a monetary amount (usually 10s of thousands), if you want to stay.

[Paul]

Not 100% sure about it but being a member of the EU stops us negotiating separate trade deals

It's certainly true in some trade deals one of the EU benefits is the knowledge one won't be undercut by other EU members. I don't know exactly how it works but I'm sure this is one of the principles behind EU trade deals.

Are there EU deals which cover every market? Somehow I doubt it.

We do not owe anybody the right of entry into Britain. I do not believe in the "sins of the fathers". We should adopt Australia's immigration policy Or even the USA's policy thank you Mr Obama.

It appears, and I had to look this up, many Commonwealth citizens have the right to come here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_citizen

[yoda]

It's certainly true in some trade deals one of the EU benefits is the knowledge one won't be undercut by other EU members. I don't know exactly how it works but I'm sure this is one of the principles behind EU trade deals.

Are there EU deals which cover every market? Somehow I doubt it.

It appears, and I had to look this up, many Commonwealth citizens have the right to come here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_citizen

It also means the bloc travels at a speed to cater for all in it, that explains why it is taking so long to negotiate the TTIP deal (in secret by the way) all 28 countries needs to be taken into account!.

Some details have been leaked about the trade deal which dilute workers rights, hence the demonstration in Germany. (Obama is part of the Bilderberg clique)

I would say negotiating a trade deal for one country is far easier, simpler and quicker than for 28 at a time.

Don't know if you have seen the Obama at the Lindley Hall program, it shows a president out of touch.

Good link for the commonwealth you posted, just shows what is out there

[Norbert Rassragr]

It's certainly true in some trade deals one of the EU benefits is the knowledge one won't be undercut by other EU members. I don't know exactly how it works but I'm sure this is one of the principles behind EU trade deals.

Are there EU deals which cover every market? Somehow I doubt it.

It appears, and I had to look this up, many Commonwealth citizens have the right to come here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_citizen

That is not true. Sky TV has merged with sky Germany and sky Italy, and have just cancelled the contract to repair boxes with Unipart. It's gone to a Dutch company called Teleplan. So around Autumn your Sky boxes will be fixed in the Czech Republic where the minimum wage is about £4.50 p/h. The EU may level the playing field when dealing with those outside, but there's still room for companies to ship business from here to cheaper parts of the EU.

[Paul]

In respect of the point being discussed, external trade deals, it is true. Your point, very valid in my view, is in relation to labour rates and has no connection with international trade deals.

It's a very good point though. A section of the British public complains vociferously about Eastern European labour coming to the UK and taking UK jobs. At the same time the public is presumably happy to receive cheap Sky deals partly funded by low cost Eastern European labour in their own country.

Is Unipart UK based? If so the cheap Sky deals comes at the cost of UK jobs? In which case some might consider cancelling Sky.

[yoda]

In respect of the point being discussed, external trade deals, it is true. Your point, very valid in my view, is in relation to labour rates and has no connection with international trade deals.

It's a very good point though. A section of the British public complains vociferously about Eastern European labour coming to the UK and taking UK jobs. At the same time the public is presumably happy to receive cheap Sky deals partly funded by low cost Eastern European labour in their own country.

Is Unipart UK based? If so the cheap Sky deals comes at the cost of UK jobs? In which case some might consider cancelling Sky.

Out of the EU we could negotiate direct with China, India or the up and coming Madagascar and get even better deals

[Al]

It's certainly true in some trade deals one of the EU benefits is the knowledge one won't be undercut by other EU members. I don't know exactly how it works but I'm sure this is one of the principles behind EU trade deals.

Are there EU deals which cover every market? Somehow I doubt it.

It appears, and I had to look this up, many Commonwealth citizens have the right to come here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_citizen

I know that is the case Paul which is why so many from the Indian Peninsula have British passports. I was giving my opinion as to how it should be not how it is.

Do you have to go into so much trouble to try to knock so many of my posts Paul. I'm sick of arguing with you.

In respect of the point being discussed, external trade deals, it is true. Your point, very valid in my view, is in relation to labour rates and has no connection with international trade deals.

It's a very good point though. A section of the British public complains vociferously about Eastern European labour coming to the UK and taking UK jobs. At the same time the public is presumably happy to receive cheap Sky deals partly funded by low cost Eastern European labour in their own country.

Is Unipart UK based? If so the cheap Sky deals comes at the cost of UK jobs? In which case some might consider cancelling Sky.

Cheap SKY deals. If you can find me one I'd be grateful. My SKY deal is anything but cheap.