[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[broadsword]

I didn't call yoda asinine, I referred to his comments as asinine.

"Those who bothered to vote" doesn't constitute the electorate. Did 52% of the electorate vote to leave the EU? No.

Other than that and trying to shut me down by saying I should be banned, I think you're spot on.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36868195

One of the major players that was telling us to stay in the EU. Just shows you can trust these major global bodies about as far you can throw them.

[yoda]

I didn't call yoda asinine, I referred to his comments as asinine.

"Those who bothered to vote" doesn't constitute the electorate. Did 52% of the electorate vote to leave the EU? No.

Other than that and trying to shut me down by saying I should be banned, I think you're spot on.

Stop being pedantic, the total voting remain was 48.1 % the total voting leave was 51.9%. The format for the referendum was agreed in advance and approved by all relevant bodies. NO provision was made for the allocation of non voters.

The remainers who are still bleating about the result should have done a better job of convincing the public to vote stay.

[broadsword]

It's not being pedantic.

It's very basic.

There's a very significant difference between 36% of the electorate and 52% of voters. I rather suspect you only quote the latter figure because you know that to quote the former diminishes the strength of the Brexit case.

In any event, it is ludricous that it could have come down to one vote, given what was at stake.

[yoda]

It's not being pedantic.

It's very basic.

There's a very significant difference between 36% of the electorate and 52% of voters. I rather suspect you only quote the latter figure because you know that to quote the former diminishes the strength of the Brexit case.

In any event, it is ludricous that it could have come down to one vote, given what was at stake.

You seem to be assuming that the non voters would have a preference to stay, I am only quoting both figures as they are the reality of the result.

Where did you get the 36% figure from anyway ?

The official figure for non voters was 27.8 % of the electorate, so the turn out was 72.2 %.

[broadsword]

I'm not assuming anything.

You said 52% of the electorate voted to leave. That's simply not true at all.

It's incredibly basic.

[yoda]

I'm not assuming anything.

You said 52% of the electorate voted to leave. That's simply not true at all.

It's incredibly basic.

Neither is 36%, it is actually (of the electorate) 37.44 % to leave with 34.71 % to stay, your point is ?

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Neither is 36%, it is actually (of the electorate) 37.44 % to leave with 34.71 % to stay, your point is ?

He didn't have a point to begin with. Apart from some pedantic technical argument devoid of common sense and utterly devoid of merit.

Anyone who thinks there should be a second vote or that this one should be over-ruled by MPs I'm generally ignoring outright. Its a pathetically bitter argument that will never win in a million years because if it did then democracy and the entire political system in this country would be meaningless.

I don't know of a single MP outside of wee jimmy krankie's party who say the vote isn't binding, and the only reason they're trying to claim it is by separating the Scottish vote off.

[broadsword]

36 is a hell of a lot closer to 37.4 than 52 is.

My point is that less than half of the electorate was won over to change the status quo. Significantly less than half. Claiming 52% is misrepresenting matters.

Less than half of the electorate was won over, and it was done on a false prospectus:

- We give the EU £350m a week (conveniently ignores the rebate we get) and we could fund the NHS with that instead. That particular pledge was quickly dropped.

- We can control our borders if we leave the EU reduce the number of immigrants. Free movement of people is the price we pay for free trade. Don't think people realised that, it wasn't mentioned, neither was (as is my understanding) that non-EU immigration is nothing to do with being part of the EU. Do you think if we cut new trade deals with other countries, that those countries won't ask for free movement of workers to the UK?

The referendum was poorly set-up, the brexit campaign was misleading. People were conned, and the hirdle for brexit to win was not set high enough.

We live in a parliamentary democracy for a reason. We democratically elect representatives to take vital décisions for us because they get paid to get it right. Rather than the man in the street, who votes according to prejudice.

I think the whole thing was a joke, and to get snide comments about it being democratic and "get over it" and other feeble-minded nonsense is adding insult to injury.

Hopefully that is clear enough.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I think the whole thing was a joke, and to get snide comments about it being democratic and "get over it" and other feeble-minded nonsense is adding insult to injury.

Hopefully that is clear enough.

Haha you're moaning about snide comments when you seem to employ some obligatory patronising sign-off implying Yoda is too thick to understand your argument in every single one of your posts?

This utter lack of respect for the opinions and knowledge of Leave voters is exactly why the establishment lost the vote. Accusing the people you're trying to convince of being morons motivated by basic falsehoods who have allowed themselves to be conned then you're effectively bullying them.

The entire Remain campaign was based around bullying and scare tactics and that's why it failed. That approach gives 2 results, sheepish cowering and angry resistance. I think people have forgotten the traditional English mentality if they think they're gonna get anywhere near as much of the former as the latter.

[yoda]

36 is a hell of a lot closer to 37.4 than 52 is.

My point is that less than half of the electorate was won over to change the status quo. Significantly less than half. Claiming 52% is misrepresenting matters.

Less than half of the electorate was won over, and it was done on a false prospectus:

- We give the EU £350m a week (conveniently ignores the rebate we get) and we could fund the NHS with that instead. That particular pledge was quickly dropped.

- We can control our borders if we leave the EU reduce the number of immigrants. Free movement of people is the price we pay for free trade. Don't think people realised that, it wasn't mentioned, neither was (as is my understanding) that non-EU immigration is nothing to do with being part of the EU. Do you think if we cut new trade deals with other countries, that those countries won't ask for free movement of workers to the UK?

The referendum was poorly set-up, the brexit campaign was misleading. People were conned, and the hirdle for brexit to win was not set high enough.

We live in a parliamentary democracy for a reason. We democratically elect representatives to take vital décisions for us because they get paid to get it right. Rather than the man in the street, who votes according to prejudice.

I think the whole thing was a joke, and to get snide comments about it being democratic and "get over it" and other feeble-minded nonsense is adding insult to injury.

Hopefully that is clear enough.

Yep, clear enough that you have admitted to being gullible.

Shock horror, politicians telling porkies on both sides and the public falling for it,

not like it hasn't happened before is it,

1973,

The Common Market will great, no mention of political union and unbridled freedom of movement.

Anyway the bit bold, what is that all about ?

[broadsword]

Hold on ... thought you were ignoring people like me?

I apologise for any personal sleights that may be in my posts, but the way I am being spoken to makes it very hard not to reply in kind. And lo and behold, yoda has just accused me of being gullible.

I've not accused anyone of being a moron, I'm not bullying anyone, that's for sure.

Clearly there's no debate to be had here, it's just entrenched positions. I'm guiulty of getting dragged down into the mire. There's no benefit to getting involved, just insults being traded and viewpoints regurgitated.

[yoda]

Hold on ... thought you were ignoring people like me?

I apologise for any personal sleights that may be in my posts, but the way I am being spoken to makes it very hard not to reply in kind. And lo and behold, yoda has just accused me of being gullible.

I've not accused anyone of being a moron, I'm not bullying anyone, that's for sure.

Clearly there's no debate to be had here, it's just entrenched positions. I'm guiulty of getting dragged down into the mire. There's no benefit to getting involved, just insults being traded and viewpoints regurgitated.

I don't use the ignore function.

I didn't accuse you of being gullible you said it in your post, just agreeing with you on that one.

The only stat that really counts is the official result.

The Government has taken the result on board and is now making plans, so the next opportunity for the electorate to question the situation is the next election

[Al]

I didn't call yoda asinine, I referred to his comments as asinine.

"Those who bothered to vote" doesn't constitute the electorate. Did 52% of the electorate vote to leave the EU? No.

Other than that and trying to shut me down by saying I should be banned, I think you're spot on.

If they couldn't be bothered to vote they gave up their right to an opinion.

You are splitting hairs re your "asinine" comment.

[broadsword]

I haven't admitted to being gullible at all.

I think you should call a halt to it now, before the quality of debate falls even further.

If they couldn't be bothered to vote they gave up their right to an opinion.

You are splitting hairs with your asinine comment.

My point was entirely lost on you.

[yoda]

I haven't admitted to being gullible at all.

I think you should call a halt to it now, before the quality of debate falls even further.

My point was entirely lost on you.

You mean like calling into question a democratic process, with the process being agreed by all parties prior to the event.

[Al]

I haven't admitted to being gullible at all.

I think you should call a halt to it now, before the quality of debate falls even further.

My point was entirely lost on you.

No it wasn't. I knew what you meant. It just wasn't a valid point.

[broadsword]

You mean like calling into question a democratic process, with the process being agreed by all parties prior to the event.

No, I really don't.

What I meant was, misrepresenting the arguments of others and getting personal.

[yoda]

No, I really don't.

What I meant was, misrepresenting the arguments of others and getting personal.

I really don't understand what it is you want to see happen next

[Baz]

The 'I'm with stupid' emoji that he's suddenly very fond of aiming at yoda.

This has been reported a few times, so consider that a friendly reminder from K-Hod and me, jim.

Seriously?

That emoji has been in common use for similar things across the site, and has been for years.

[Mike E]

Seriously?

That emoji has been in common use for similar things across the site, and has been for years.

Yes, when a clear pattern emerges and is noticed by a few mods at once, you follow it.

It's usually used in a northern sarky way, whereas it read as a petty insult in these cases.

Jim unfortunately has a reputation following him which has him perpetually on the mod radar, nor does he do anything to quell it.

[jim mk2]

Meanwhile, back in the real world evidence that the economy has tanked since Brexit, with activity at its lowest level since the financial crisis of 2008 and at a level usually associated with recession.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/28c915d8-4fe8-11e6-88c5-db83e98a590a.html#axzz4EkDsAcWJ

.... while economic activity in the eurozone and the US has hardly been affected.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e2d10530-4ffc-11e6-8172-e39ecd3b86fc.html

....while the northern turkeys who voted for Brexit are about to find they voted for Christmas too.

(the comments on this article are very instructive if you want to see how Tory voting southerners view the north)

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/173270b2-4f2a-11e6-8172-e39ecd3b86fc.html

So, all in all the Remain warnings about the economy are starting to be realised - and all because some small minded people didn't like Mr and Mrs Patel living next door.

[Mike E]

You're bright enough to know FT requires a subscription jim

[matt83]

There was always going to be an economic down turn if left the EU. It was crazy to think otherwise. But it's not how you start the race it's how you finish it. Let's see where we are in 5, 10, 40 years time. Anyone would think whilst we were in the EU the country never went into recession and the streets were paved in gold.

What has happened in that 40 years of EI hurt is we've sacrificed almost all our industry. Who knows we may start to rebuild.

And if ultimately having a smaller economy is consequence of getting out from under the jackboot of Berlin, sorry Brussels, and those corrupt bureaucrats and live in a democracy again then it's a price worth paying.

[philipl]

It will be a number of months before the extent of the Brexit damage is fully apparent but all the signals thus far are deeply concerning.

The Brexiters had no plans beyond a bunch of lies they had disowned within 24 hours of winning nor do they agree what Brexit actually means- in fact there is every likelihood of the Brexit campaign disintegrating into fratricidal warfare with Aaron Banks firing the first shots and Bill Cash joining in.

What is certain is the Brexit damage will be becoming very clear before Hammond's stimulus can have any impact and before Article 50 is anywhere near being ready to be triggered.

Even after Article 50 is triggered, it is increasingly clear it can be untriggered plus even negotiating a trade treaty with Britain is illegal in international law before the UK is out two years after Article 50 is triggered.

So this looks like a minimum of three years of absolutely fundamental uncertainty over whether the UK remains inside the single market and whether firms can benefit from things as basic as the single VAT regime, never mind all the EU support and harmonisation schemes (and many of the most valuable do not involve any subsidy).

The absolute killer for investment is uncertainty. In the absence of certainty, the base case is the worst case.

This is why the PMI index and property funds are beginning to crater.

Politically the proverbial will be all over the fan and needing immediate attention long before Article 50 is flavour of the month. The Tory leavers will feel full freedom to behave as irresponsibly as they want to because Labour has left the Parliamentary chamber to go on a Momentum demo somewhere so the Tories could commit suicide as well. Gordon Brown was in a far stronger position as PM in 2007/8 than Theresa May is now.

We really are in the greatest national crisis since WW2 and the outcome is as clear as mud. Article 50 being triggered has to be an outside possibility given the political system is weighted towards self-protection and the status quo. Farage is still drawing his MEP salary and expenses which is a clear sign that Brexiters are going to be sold down the river.

There was always going to be an economic down turn if left the EU. It was crazy to think otherwise. But it's not how you start the race it's how you finish it. Let's see where we are in 5, 10, 40 years time. Anyone would think whilst we were in the EU the country never went into recession and the streets were paved in gold.

What has happened in that 40 years of EI hurt is we've sacrificed almost all our industry. Who knows we may start to rebuild.

And if ultimately having a smaller economy is consequence of getting out from under the jackboot of Berlin, sorry Brussels, and those corrupt bureaucrats and live in a democracy again then it's a price worth paying.

Sorry to intrude with hard facts but the UK has gained relatively and absolutely during the 41 years of membership to date.

And if you have seen jackboots in Brussels or Berlin, you should stop going to kinky gay bars or SM clubs.