[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[chor808]

And left wingers want to tax businesses more. It would be counter productive.

Add to that a wealth tax:

Labour leadership: Owen Smith proposes £3bn wealth tax

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/jul/27/labour-leadership-corbyn-owen-smith-speech-millions-of-labour-supporters-prefer-may-to-corbyn-poll-suggests-politics-live

[K-Hod]

It's all hot air anyhow, they'll say what they want to try and get elected, hardly any of those would ever end up getting over the line.

I see nothing wrong in asking businesses to pay the tax they're supposed to (i.e. corporation tax), not sure it needs to be raised, just what's due should be collected more efficiently.

[USRoverME]

I cannot believe that of all the people there are to choose from in America those 2 are the candidates the Americans have got.

If i were a writer, not an engineer, i could write a novel of what I've seen trying to watch us, as a nation, process this whole decision.

But I will say, there are many common themes between reading this brexit thread, and what i am seeing as folks across all parts of the spectrum here in the states are choosing candidates.

But I can tie them together thusly, i think.

In any major issue in life, nothing is black or white, true or false, yes or no. There are too many subtleties. Those backing trump do so for many, many different reasons, some well intentioned, others not. Some well informed, others not. Same for bernie, hilary, remain, stay...

When left with only 2 choices, (or, maybe a third, to not choose), rarely is either option all that well suited to your exact criteria and thoughts.

[Claytons Left Boot]

Yesterday, spent a tortuous three and three quarter hours getting to Doncaster for the Challenge Cup semi final. Motorway virtually all the way from Northwich. M56 snarled up approaching the M6, M67 snarled up a couple of miles from the end, M1 snarled up southwards towards, through and after Sheffield, M18 snarled up all the way to Doncaster. Averaged around 24 mph for the journey.

Now, I know it wasn't all about the numbers of people coming in to the UK but how could anyone vote for policies that would increase our population by 1.2 million every four years?

WE ARE A SMALL COUNTRY AND WE'RE FULL !!! (rant over)

[Baz]

Yesterday, spent a tortuous three and three quarter hours getting to Doncaster for the Challenge Cup semi final. Motorway virtually all the way from Northwich. M56 snarled up approaching the M6, M67 snarled up a couple of miles from the end, M1 snarled up southwards towards, through and after Sheffield, M18 snarled up all the way to Doncaster. Averaged around 24 mph for the journey.

Now, I know it wasn't all about the numbers of people coming in to the UK but how could anyone vote for policies that would increase our population by 1.2 million every four years?

WE ARE A SMALL COUNTRY AND WE'RE FULL !!! (rant over)

On the other hand, if the rugby authorities had any sense they wouldn't be adding to the road congestion around Manchester at tea-time every day of the working week.

If we disbanded rugby league, then those poor commuters wouldnt have had such a delayed journey home.

But yeah, lets blame immigrants.

[Al]

On the other hand, if the rugby authorities had any sense they wouldn't be adding to the road congestion around Manchester at tea-time every day of the working week.

If we disbanded rugby league, then those poor commuters wouldnt have had such a delayed journey home.

But yeah, lets blame immigrants.

Most of the Rugby League commuters were born and bred here. They didn't move in to add to the congestion. So yes let's blame the immigrants. That's where the problem is increasingly being caused. Do you want to stop football traffic too?

[Claytons Left Boot]

On the other hand, if the rugby authorities had any sense they wouldn't be adding to the road congestion around Manchester at tea-time every day of the working week.

If we disbanded rugby league, then those poor commuters wouldnt have had such a delayed journey home.

But yeah, lets blame immigrants.

Don't be daft Baz. Nothing to do with Rugby League, it's the same story all over the UK. Snarled up motorways everywhere.

Incidentally, there's little RL interest in Cheshire, save for the strip adjacent to the Mersey and the route I took to Doncaster was not taken by either the Wigan or Hull fans, so absolutely nothing to do with RL in the slightest.

The point I am making is that the country can not afford to grow at its present rate. The present rate of allowing 1.2 million immigrants in every four years. The infrastructure is not there. The size of our country is not there.

I would welcome in immigrants, by the way, but at a more reasonable and acceptable level, say ten thousand per year.

[Baz]

Most of the Rugby League commuters were born and bred here. They didn't move in to add to the congestion. So yes let's blame the immigrants. That's where the problem is increasingly being caused. Do you want to stop football traffic too?

8.5% of the uk population are immigrants.

I think theres far more blame to be laid at the doors of the rugby league authorities, and the appalling public transport system we have, than immigrants.

[Baz]

Most of the Rugby League commuters were born and bred here. They didn't move in to add to the congestion. So yes let's blame the immigrants. That's where the problem is increasingly being caused. Do you want to stop football traffic too?

Sky had a game with Villa playing united at Villa Park on a Friday night, hundreds missed the game, and thousands where late due to traffic on the m6. Entirely predictable, and the motorway police said so at the time.

Don't be daft Baz. Nothing to do with Rugby League, it's the same story all over the UK. Snarled up motorways everywhere.

Incidentally, there's little RL interest in Cheshire, save for the strip adjacent to the Mersey and the route I took to Doncaster was not taken by either the Wigan or Hull fans, so absolutely nothing to do with RL in the slightest.

The point I am making is that the country can not afford to grow at its present rate. The present rate of allowing 1.2 million immigrants in every four years. The infrastructure is not there. The size of our country is not there.

I would welcome in immigrants, by the way, but at a more reasonable and acceptable level, say ten thousand per year.

There are 2 main routes across the pennines in the area that Wigan fans would be using- the M62 and the Woodhead pass, so Id suggest you are wrong when you say it had nothing to do with the wigan fans. They would have contributed to the congestion.

[Claytons Left Boot]

There are 2 main routes across the pennines in the area that Wigan fans would be using- the M62 and the Woodhead pass, so Id suggest you are wrong when you say it had nothing to do with the wigan fans. They would have contributed to the congestion.

The Wigan fans I spoke to at the game (cars and coaches) travelled M62 then M18 southwards to Doncaster. I went over the Woodhead and didn't see another Wigan fan all afternoon yesterday, nor any this morning when we came back.

Your comments about disbanding Rugby League to allow commuters to get home without delay are, quite frankly ludicrous. Where would we stop? When Man Utd play at home, seventy five thousand of them converge on the city, some from within but thousands from outside Manchester. Ban Utd from the Premier League should we? Ban the swimming gala at Belper Street baths as a few parents would increase the traffic up Penny Street? How about shutting all the factories in Manchester because the employees travelling in from elsewhere cause traffic congestion? I've never heard owt as daft in my life.

The last two paragraphs of my last post cover the point I was making about the increasing number of people being allowed into this country which adds to (but which isn't the sole cause) of congestion. That is congestion throughout the whole country and not just around Manchester.

[yoda]

The Wigan fans I spoke to at the game (cars and coaches) travelled M62 then M18 southwards to Doncaster. I went over the Woodhead and didn't see another Wigan fan all afternoon yesterday, nor any this morning when we came back.

Your comments about disbanding Rugby League to allow commuters to get home without delay are, quite frankly ludicrous. Where would we stop? When Man Utd play at home, seventy five thousand of them converge on the city, some from within but thousands from outside Manchester. Ban Utd from the Premier League should we? Ban the swimming gala at Belper Street baths as a few parents would increase the traffic up Penny Street? How about shutting all the factories in Manchester because the employees travelling in from elsewhere cause traffic congestion? I've never heard owt as daft in my life.

The last two paragraphs of my last post cover the point I was making about the increasing number of people being allowed into this country which adds to (but which isn't the sole cause) of congestion. That is congestion throughout the whole country and not just around Manchester.

Absolutely

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

On the other hand, if the rugby authorities had any sense they wouldn't be adding to the road congestion around Manchester at tea-time every day of the working week.

If we disbanded rugby league, then those poor commuters wouldnt have had such a delayed journey home.

But yeah, lets blame immigrants.

The most staggering argument I've ever heard. Disband one of the top 5 most popular sports in this country in favour of the most demented, pointless, counter-productive attitude in politics?

Looking at the big picture immigration to the west is simply cramming the masses of the world into one small pocket of landmass. Taking people out of mostly sparsely populated areas and squashing them into already densely populated areas. It is a moronic policy by any logical reasoning yet continues to stand up despite all the problems its causing because it economically benefits the rich and powerful, and social conscious-wise benefits those endlessly seeking a pat on the back for being SUCH a good person.

Overpopulation is a blight on this country, an almost comical overloading of our transport network being just one of a host of very serious problems. These problems drive normal people round the bend, screw with their quality of life, and nothing is ever done about them. Because huge net immigration must never, ever, ever stop.

All I can say is thank christ we've won one battle in getting out of Europe, the next one is getting the immigration numbers down by a factor of at least 5. Either that or bugger off to Scotland where they all want to be in the EU, precisely because they've never experienced mass immigration and 2 hour snarl ups make national news.

[Baz]

The most staggering argument I've ever heard. Disband one of the top 5 most popular sports in this country in favour of the most demented, pointless, counter-productive attitude in politics?

Looking at the big picture immigration to the west is simply cramming the masses of the world into one small pocket of landmass. Taking people out of mostly sparsely populated areas and squashing them into already densely populated areas. It is a moronic policy by any logical reasoning yet continues to stand up despite all the problems its causing because it economically benefits the rich and powerful, and social conscious-wise benefits those endlessly seeking a pat on the back for being SUCH a good person.

Overpopulation is a blight on this country, an almost comical overloading of our transport network being just one of a host of very serious problems. These problems drive normal people round the bend, screw with their quality of life, and nothing is ever done about them. Because huge net immigration must never, ever, ever stop.

All I can say is thank christ we've won one battle in getting out of Europe, the next one is getting the immigration numbers down by a factor of at least 5. Either that or bugger off to Scotland where they all want to be in the EU, precisely because they've never experienced mass immigration and 2 hour snarl ups make national news.

Almost as staggering an argument as blaming 8.5% of the population for having a bad journey across manchester and the pennines in rush hour on immigrants?

You can have all the arguments you want for and against immigration, but blaming 8.5% of the population for traffic congestion whilst ignoring the actions of the other 91.5% is daft - hence the joke about disbanding a sport. Also plenty of 'normal' people in this country are pro-immigration because of the net economic growth - including those 'moronic' people you voted for at the last general election.

[Baz]

The Wigan fans I spoke to at the game (cars and coaches) travelled M62 then M18 southwards to Doncaster. I went over the Woodhead and didn't see another Wigan fan all afternoon yesterday, nor any this morning when we came back.

Your comments about disbanding Rugby League to allow commuters to get home without delay are, quite frankly ludicrous. Where would we stop? When Man Utd play at home, seventy five thousand of them converge on the city, some from within but thousands from outside Manchester. Ban Utd from the Premier League should we? Ban the swimming gala at Belper Street baths as a few parents would increase the traffic up Penny Street? How about shutting all the factories in Manchester because the employees travelling in from elsewhere cause traffic congestion? I've never heard owt as daft in my life.

The last two paragraphs of my last post cover the point I was making about the increasing number of people being allowed into this country which adds to (but which isn't the sole cause) of congestion. That is congestion throughout the whole country and not just around Manchester.

Id agree its not the sole cause of congestion, in fact I'd say it's far from the main cause of congestion, but your 'rant' was to single out immigrants in your initial post, and not mention any other causes.

[Paul]

Yesterday, spent a tortuous three and three quarter hours getting to Doncaster for the Challenge Cup semi final. Motorway virtually all the way from Northwich. M56 snarled up approaching the M6, M67 snarled up a couple of miles from the end, M1 snarled up southwards towards, through and after Sheffield, M18 snarled up all the way to Doncaster. Averaged around 24 mph for the journey.

Now, I know it wasn't all about the numbers of people coming in to the UK but how could anyone vote for policies that would increase our population by 1.2 million every four years?

WE ARE A SMALL COUNTRY AND WE'RE FULL !!! (rant over)

Car ownership increased by 600,000 in 2015 and by 10,000,000 over the past 20 years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35312562

In 2015 net migration was 330,000 of which 184,000 were EU citizens and 188,000 non EU.

UK population 1995 - 58 million

UK population 2015 - 64.7 million

Net migration 1995-2015 approximately 3.6 million. Some very rough addition on my part.

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics

With the exception of the M18, which I've always thought of as quiet, the roads you mention have been rammed for years. The M6 is always bad and especially so while its being upgraded to a smart motorway. The M56 has been tough for the last 3 weeks due to exit 7 being closed while the relief road is built. The Manchester side of the M67, presuming you mean this side, had been a complete car park for years.

TBH at rush hour on a Friday night I can't understand why your surprised. I commute Chorley Knutsford and current drive time is 90 minutes in rush hour - approx 28mph.

[Norbert Rassragr]

What if an immigrant wants to go to a rugby league game?

[Al]

If we could reduce the UK population by 8.5% it would ease a lot of problems.

[Claytons Left Boot]

TBH at rush hour on a Friday night I can't understand why your surprised. .

Jesus wept. The game was in the evening. I left at dinner time.

Paul, I am 58 years old and have plenty of life experience. I have been driving for 41 years and I am well aware that Friday evening at rush hour is problematic.

What if an immigrant wants to go to a rugby league game?

Don't you start lol

[Claytons Left Boot]

Id agree its not the sole cause of congestion, in fact I'd say it's far from the main cause of congestion, but your 'rant' was to single out immigrants in your initial post, and not mention any other causes.

I didn't single out immigrants at all.

I was pointing out the stupidity of agreeing policies that increase the population of the UK by 1.2 million every four years.

The road congestion in the major conurbations has been poor for a good number of years. I know that and everyone else knows that. There are a number of factors, not least that a high percentage of households have more than one car these days.

The point I have been making (and you Baz have been taking it off topic by having a go at Rugby league and then back tracking by claiming it was some sort of joke) is that the country is full and, whilst I would welcome a small amount of immigrants coming in, we can not allow the population of these islands to grow unchecked.

[Baz]

You want to re-read your own posts CLB. Out of all the reasons that could be due to causing your delay, you only mention immigration - that's singling out one issue.

My initial reply was sarcastic because it appears to be open season on here against immigrants, and frankly (and this isnt directed at you CLB), I find some of the viewpoints on here equally appalling and worrying.

Yesterday, spent a tortuous three and three quarter hours getting to Doncaster for the Challenge Cup semi final. Motorway virtually all the way from Northwich. M56 snarled up approaching the M6, M67 snarled up a couple of miles from the end, M1 snarled up southwards towards, through and after Sheffield, M18 snarled up all the way to Doncaster. Averaged around 24 mph for the journey.

Now, I know it wasn't all about the numbers of people coming in to the UK but how could anyone vote for policies that would increase our population by 1.2 million every four years?

WE ARE A SMALL COUNTRY AND WE'RE FULL !!! (rant over)

[Claytons Left Boot]

Fair enough Baz, I see and fully understand what you're saying. I also feel the way you do with regard to some folks' viewpoints on immigration.

I have lived in both Switzerland and Spain over the years and have met some really nice people in those countries. I have friends in Norway and have had Norwegians stay with me here in the UK who have come over for Rovers games. Some of the nicest people, when we were over in Spain, were the Swedes. Great folk. In fact, whenever I am in Europe on holiday, I make a point of mixing with Europeans rather than Brits. I just prefer it that way.

I also see no problem with people from farther afield coming to the UK to either better themselves or indeed bring up their families in a more tolerant society than they may have been used to. What I do object to, however, is the sheer number of immigrants that do make it to these shores and the perceived indifference by the government to the problems, socially and structurally, that follow.

If we were a country the size of Canada or the US, it wouldn't be an issue. It's ok for Paul to quote the population of the U.K. In 1995 against that of today but it's the current rate of growth that's relevant. Ten years from now, that's 3.3 million extra people or, put it another way, three extra Birminghams! I certainly don't want to spend my last twenty years or so in a country bursting at the seams and a good proportion of the population don't either, hence the vote. Had it not been for the immigration issue, there would have been no need for the referendum in the first place.

Immigration is good but it has to be in sensible numbers.

[Al]

It wouldn't be so bad if the immigrants assimilated with the British population but a lot of them don't. They want to impose their way of life over here but with the benefits of living here. Trouble is a lot want to allow it and if you object you get accused of being racist. Absolutely ridiculous!

[DE.]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/09/is-britain-full-home-truths-about-population-panic

Quite a good article here on Britain's population density.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/09/is-britain-full-home-truths-about-population-panic

Quite a good article here on Britain's population density.

Knew before I read that what the leaning of the article would be. It's not a bad article but it displays the Guardian's usual political agenda. What gets me is how the Daily Mail is vilified as fascist rubbish by liberals whether they've ever read it or not, yet the Guardian is continually referenced as an apparently credible and objective source. Hypocrisy in the extreme, both are equally slanted towards their own bias. I'd trust a Grauniad article about as much as I trust a betting advert.

[DE.]

I thought it presented the situation fairly well. The uptake seemed to be that yes, there is overcrowding in parts of the UK, but it's mainly down to our poor use of space. Seems fair and consistent with what I've been told in the past. Would be interested to read articles with alternate viewpoints (using proper data and sources, mind).