[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[Baz]

It wouldn't be so bad if the immigrants assimilated with the British population but a lot of them don't. They want to impose their way of life over here but with the benefits of living here. Trouble is a lot want to allow it and if you object you get accused of being racist. Absolutely ridiculous!

No one would rightly accuse you of being rascist for that viewpoint.

However our country is built upon immigration, and taking the better parts of that and assimilating that into the British culture is what we have always done. In my experience most immigrants don't want to impose their culture, they just want to be able to continue some of it. As long as it isn't contrary to the British law and values, then I see no harm at all, in many cases it's beneficial to our culture.

What is not British in my opinion is this feeling that all immigration is bad, and unless they come and act British from day one then they are not welcome here. That is getting far more toward the 'rascist' flag if you ask me.

[Baz]

Fair enough Baz, I see and fully understand what you're saying. I also feel the way you do with regard to some folks' viewpoints on immigration.

I have lived in both Switzerland and Spain over the years and have met some really nice people in those countries. I have friends in Norway and have had Norwegians stay with me here in the UK who have come over for Rovers games. Some of the nicest people, when we were over in Spain, were the Swedes. Great folk. In fact, whenever I am in Europe on holiday, I make a point of mixing with Europeans rather than Brits. I just prefer it that way.

I also see no problem with people from farther afield coming to the UK to either better themselves or indeed bring up their families in a more tolerant society than they may have been used to. What I do object to, however, is the sheer number of immigrants that do make it to these shores and the perceived indifference by the government to the problems, socially and structurally, that follow.

If we were a country the size of Canada or the US, it wouldn't be an issue. It's ok for Paul to quote the population of the U.K. In 1995 against that of today but it's the current rate of growth that's relevant. Ten years from now, that's 3.3 million extra people or, put it another way, three extra Birminghams! I certainly don't want to spend my last twenty years or so in a country bursting at the seams and a good proportion of the population don't either, hence the vote. Had it not been for the immigration issue, there would have been no need for the referendum in the first place.

Immigration is good but it has to be in sensible numbers.

I don't disagree with any of this.

A sensible debate about immigration levels is needed, but it needs to be balanced against the benefits too, at present all we seem to see is the negativity about immigration.

[Claytons Left Boot]

An interesting article that DE highlighted. Listed below are virtually all the countries in Europe with their density shown per square km, which highlights the problem within England and the UK.

Iceland 3

Norway 16

Finland 18

Sweden 21

Bulgaria 66

Rep Ireland 68

Greece 82

Romania 84

Spain 92

Austria 101

Hungarians 107

Portugal 115

Slovakia 111

France 121

Poland 122

Denmark 130

Czech Republic 136

Switzerland 200

Italy 202

Luxembourg 205

Germany 229

United Kingdom 263

Belgium 367

ENGLAND 420

Netherlands 497

The Guardian article can talk all it wants about wasted space in England but, as far as I'm concerned, the above statistics show that my earlier comments of 'we are full' are entirely appropriate.

[Al]

No one would rightly accuse you of being rascist for that viewpoint.

However our country is built upon immigration, and taking the better parts of that and assimilating that into the British culture is what we have always done. In my experience most immigrants don't want to impose their culture, they just want to be able to continue some of it. As long as it isn't contrary to the British law and values, then I see no harm at all, in many cases it's beneficial to our culture.

What is not British in my opinion is this feeling that all immigration is bad, and unless they come and act British from day one then they are not welcome here. That is getting far more toward the 'rascist' flag if you ask me.

Sorry Baz but if immigrants are to be welcomed here I want them to come here wanting to be British so "acting British" is implied. If that is racist then I confess to it. Why come here if you do not want to assimilate and be British? Unless it is the benefits system that attracts them and I fear that is the attraction in a lot of cases rather than a wish to be British.

[yoda]

Don't you dare call me a little Englander, I think global i.e.

BIG

Does the USA have visa free travel with China to go along with their trade deal, NO

Talk about being blinkered and narrow thinking, you are a perfect example.

Just like your mentality towards University education. It's about time the whole University funding system was investigated.

Students leaving Uni with an average £44k debt, only 50% getting work relative to their degrees, many with bad credit limitations for the rest of their lives.

I would say it is as big, if not bigger, than the PPI scandal.

Something which you are directly involved in.

You never will, number one religion for the Chinese is to make money.

Which is why I am extremely fortunate to be married to one

Confirmation of the chaos in the University cost's industry, full blown, if not more, repeat of the PPI scandal

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36916009

[philipl]

It is a 100% British political decisions which decimated the buses and railways.

[yoda]

Decimated ! are you sure that is the right description,

http://orr.gov.uk/news-and-media/email-alerts/2015/rail-passenger-journeys-reached-a-record-high-of-1.65-billion-between-2014-2015

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/387397/annual-bus-statistics-year-to-march-2014.pdf

[JBiz]

Sorry Baz but if immigrants are to be welcomed here I want them to come here wanting to be British so "acting British" is implied. If that is racist then I confess to it. Why come here if you do not want to assimilate and be British? Unless it is the benefits system that attracts them and I fear that is the attraction in a lot of cases rather than a wish to be British.

What is "acting British" though? I personally think modern Britain is defined by multiculturalism.

[Baz]

Sorry Baz but if immigrants are to be welcomed here I want them to come here wanting to be British so "acting British" is implied. If that is racist then I confess to it. Why come here if you do not want to assimilate and be British? Unless it is the benefits system that attracts them and I fear that is the attraction in a lot of cases rather than a wish to be British.

Depends on how you define acting British to be honest Al. What would you expect someone acting British to do / not do?

I could be wrong, but Ive read previously that our benefits system in comparison to general cost of living is amongst the hardest in Europe - £50 /w here sounds a lot, but €20 /w in Poland may go a lot further. Id agree that no benefits should be allowed to be paid overseas, and Id also agree with taking nothing until you have paid in - both of which are / have been dealt with. So I don't think they can now turn up and start claiming and if they have no job after 6 months then they have to leave.

[yoda]

Depends on how you define acting British to be honest Al. What would you expect someone acting British to do / not do?

I could be wrong, but Ive read previously that our benefits system in comparison to general cost of living is amongst the hardest in Europe - £50 /w here sounds a lot, but €20 /w in Poland may go a lot further. Id agree that no benefits should be allowed to be paid overseas, and Id also agree with taking nothing until you have paid in - both of which are / have been dealt with. So I don't think they can now turn up and start claiming and if they have no job after 6 months then they have to leave.

Except EU law would prevent the UK from doing that

[bellamy11]

Sorry Baz but if immigrants are to be welcomed here I want them to come here wanting to be British so "acting British" is implied. If that is racist then I confess to it. Why come here if you do not want to assimilate and be British? Unless it is the benefits system that attracts them and I fear that is the attraction in a lot of cases rather than a wish to be British.

I'm interested in your criteria here - mainly because I'd have thought "assimilating" and "being British" are two different things. I'd count learning the language and mixing/interacting with everybody as assimilating. But where does "being British" start? Chippy Friday? Rovers and ale on Saturday? Being good at queuing? Should immigrants be changing their dietary habits, religion, the naming of their children? Not trying to get at you at all - just trying to understand the minimum "be British" criteria.

If I one day moved to Spain I'd certainly try and learn the language and probably eat tapas a bit more than I do now. I'd probably watch La Liga a lot more. My motivation to go over there wouldn't be to "be Spanish", though. I'd be going for the weather, quality of life, etc. Would that count?

[Baz]

Except EU law would prevent the UK from doing that

Its been in UK law since 2014 in line with EU law.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36449974

[Paul]

Fair enough Baz, I see and fully understand what you're saying. I also feel the way you do with regard to some folks' viewpoints on immigration.

I have lived in both Switzerland and Spain over the years and have met some really nice people in those countries. I have friends in Norway and have had Norwegians stay with me here in the UK who have come over for Rovers games. Some of the nicest people, when we were over in Spain, were the Swedes. Great folk. In fact, whenever I am in Europe on holiday, I make a point of mixing with Europeans rather than Brits. I just prefer it that way.

I also see no problem with people from farther afield coming to the UK to either better themselves or indeed bring up their families in a more tolerant society than they may have been used to. What I do object to, however, is the sheer number of immigrants that do make it to these shores and the perceived indifference by the government to the problems, socially and structurally, that follow.

If we were a country the size of Canada or the US, it wouldn't be an issue. It's ok for Paul to quote the population of the U.K. In 1995 against that of today but it's the current rate of growth that's relevant. Ten years from now, that's 3.3 million extra people or, put it another way, three extra Birminghams! I certainly don't want to spend my last twenty years or so in a country bursting at the seams and a good proportion of the population don't either, hence the vote. Had it not been for the immigration issue, there would have been no need for the referendum in the first place.

Immigration is good but it has to be in sensible numbers.

Firstly I do agree with the need to control immigration but I don't believe our leaving the EU will have any influence on migration levels whatsoever.

Like Baz, and I now read yourself, I'm appalled by the attitudes presented on here towards immigrants. I feel it needs to be recognised that frequently when people refer to immigrants they are actually talking about Muslims which is in fact a very different conversation. "Immigrant" is used purely as a cloak for Muslim and can, but not always, refer to British people. One only has to pick out specific words to demonstrate this is true.

My reaction to your original post was because I also read it as another attack on immigrants, though not Muslims, in this instance. The point I was making, probably badly, is car ownership has grown by 10 million in the past 20 years yet net migration is at 3.6 million. Even if every migrant owns a car, unlikely in my view, the bulk of vehicle ownership is driven by the existing population

If the roads are clogged, which they often are, the problem is much more closely connected with a lack of investment in infrastructure and public transport than immigration. With the bulk of car journeys now made by single occupants we are rapidly reaching the point where this behaviour may have to be taxed, especially in relation to commuting.

I'm interested you appear to be saying the only reason for holding the referendum was immigration. If true this would be an indictment of the Conservative government, Cameron and certain attitudes in this country. The idea of a national referendum based on immigration but disguised as a vote on the EU is awful. I can easily accept people voted leave because of migration but if Cameron called the referendum based on solving the migration issue he needs calling to account.

To my mind migration can only be stopped by giving people reason to stay in their own country. Migration and free movement of labour are in fact different things. We will only stop migration by solving issues in places like Syria so these people have no reason to come.

Even if we control EU migration this only partly resolves the population growth issue as 50% of migration is from non EU countries. This country needs a work force and one solution to migration could be to ensure the many roles filled by immigrants are filled by British workers. Clearly this requires a huge government led initiative but if there is no work people are less likely to come.

It's clear the country is close to full but we need a lot more imagination in solving the problem than simply attempting and eventually failing to shut the gates. At the present rate of progress it seems 4-5 years will be needed for Brexit during which time the population will have risen by a further 1.2 /1.5 million.

[Al]

I think you all know really what I mean by "being British" and not having Shakepeare's command of the English language I do not intend to write a definition that you lot can jump on and pick holes in. I'm sure someone will have a go at me for this but Meh!

[JBiz]

I think you all know really what I mean by "being British" and not having Shakepeare's command of the English language I do not intend to write a definition that you lot can jump on and pick holes in. I'm sure someone will have a go at me for this but Meh!

Genuinely don't know what you mean! Wouldn't ask you if I didn't know.

[Al]

Genuinely don't know what you mean! Wouldn't ask you if I didn't know.

B/S Not biting.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Why would we eventually fail to shut the gates? The will from the people has always been there, like it or not what seems to be the majority view of posters on this board of high immigration is fine is actually the minority one in the wider public. Politicians have just done a good job of always ignoring the public's wishes on the subject.

The Conservatives slipped up by allowing a gap in this previously unbreached wall of ignorance from the main parties, accidentally in my opinion, by calling a referendum on an issue they thought was going to fought (and obviously won) on the economy but the voters seized on as a chance to finally make their voices heard on immigration.

There'll be other slip-ups by the main parties in the future, or maybe UKIP will see another surge at the next election if net immigration figured have continued to rise. Either way as long as immigration keeps negatively affecting people's quality of life, the issue won't go away. No matter how much you and others try to push the line that there is no issue and the problem lies with peoples' attitudes.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I think you all know really what I mean by "being British" and not having Shakepeare's command of the English language I do not intend to write a definition that you lot can jump on and pick holes in. I'm sure someone will have a go at me for this but Meh!

Finally getting weary of it personally to be honest. We've been debating it for years and neither side has budged an inch. I was temporarily roused into posting after the pathetic dummy-spitting of many Remainers after the referendum but that seems to have died off now and its back to the standard total disagreement.

Which is fine, great thing about a democracy, as long as neither side tries to outlaw the view of the other. Which has always been the primary objective of playing the race card.

[JBiz]

B/S Not biting.

I don't get it Al. You make a point, I ask for you to explain and its B/S?

What is your definition of being British? If you can't explain, then expect others to put words in your mouth.

If I said something that people found strange or disagreed with, they'd ask for clarification.

You are saying that "most" immigrants won't assimilate, but you don't give a definition of what you mean?

Should people instantly get a bull dog, a flag in their garden and go chippy on Fridays? Do they have to have a specific religion? Do they have to speak a specific language fluently?

To some extent I'd agree, if you've come working over here- you need to speak lingo IMO at the least. Respect the rules and pay taxes, enough said.

What is your definition? If you don't want to answer, then take what you said back.

[Al]

Push all you like Mr Opposite but I'm not biting and don't tell me what I must take back. Who do you think you are?

[yoda]

I don't get it Al. You make a point, I ask for you to explain and its B/S?

What is your definition of being British? If you can't explain, then expect others to put words in your mouth.

If I said something that people found strange or disagreed with, they'd ask for clarification.

You are saying that "most" immigrants won't assimilate, but you don't give a definition of what you mean?

Should people instantly get a bull dog, a flag in their garden and go chippy on Fridays? Do they have to have a specific religion? Do they have to speak a specific language fluently?

To some extent I'd agree, if you've come working over here- you need to speak lingo IMO at the least. Respect the rules and pay taxes, enough said.

What is your definition? If you don't want to answer, then take what you said back.[/quote

Take a walk down the Range, take a walk around parts of central Birmingham, you will get your answers

[K-Hod]

Life would be incredibly boring if we were all the same.

[JBiz]

"Mr opposite" is a personal insult. No need for it.

If you want to post things on a public website, expect questioning. If I started up a thread with a view point you didn't understand, you'd ask for clarification. The lack of any just suggest to me that you don't know the answer.

Yoda- people moved in near each other, what is your point? Does a Spanish club have a similar topic on their board to this? Talking about all the foreigners forcing their culture on Benidorm?

[Al]

"Mr opposite" is a personal insult. No need for it.

If you want to post things on a public website, expect questioning. If I started up a thread with a view point you didn't understand, you'd ask for clarification. The lack of any just suggest to me that you don't know the answer.

Yoda- people moved in near each other, what is your point? Does a Spanish club have a similar topic on their board to this? Talking about all the foreigners forcing their culture on Benidorm?

The cap fits.

Still pushing - not biting.

Nobody forces their culture on Benidorm The Spanish have set it up for tourism and generally live the same way that we and most of Europe live.

[yoda]

Sorry I thought you were looking for answers. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it tap dance