[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[ABBEY]

Just another wind up post by Jim

[Baz]

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/a-look-inside-a-global-giant-apple-and-their-european-headquarters-in-cork-333878.html

5,000 in Cork from the looks of this article. Not sure about the rest of Ireland.

I do believe in trickle down economics but I think its positive impact decreases dramatically the further the trickle. Its been a much debated argument for a while now, famously by Maggie in the Commons:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdR7WW3XR9c

If the common man/woman is better off as a result then I can just about accept the huge inequalities produced by unrestrained capitalism. But yeah, only if the common man/woman is actually better off, which does need constant challenging.

Fair enough re Apple thats more jobs than I anticipated- I imagined a bit of a call centre, and a 'legal' EU address. However still think the tax should be paid where the revenue is taken. Otherwise can I pay my tax where I can rent a PO box?

On trickle-down economics I think it was hard to justify in the less open markets of the 80's but in an internet driven global economy I don't think it works to the same effect. The austerity program this government has put us through has allowed big businesses to justify wage stagnation whilst either profits have massively increased, or top bosses bonuses have, or both.

[Baz]

Churlish or undemocratic ?

Talking of undemocratic...

Seeing as given that the Brexit vote was spread across voters of all parties (bar SNP), why is there not a cross-party group part of the negotiations?

People have voted for Brexit, not a rightwing tory version of Brexit.

[philipl]

This is what Leave promised. Let's see if they deliver:

(1) More money for the NHS

Vote Leave’s battle bus said: “We send the EU £350 million a week. Let’s fund the EU instead”

“Instead of sending £350 million per week to Brussels, we will spend it on our priorities like the NHS and education.” – Vote Leave briefing

“After we Vote Leave on 23 June, the Government should use some of the billions saved from leaving the EU to give at least a £100 million per week cash transfusion to the NHS.” – Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, and Gisela Stuart

(2) More money for farmers

“The UK government will continue to give farmers and the environment as much support – or perhaps even more – as they get now.” – George Eustice, Minister for Farming, Food and Marine Environment

(3) More money for scientists

“If we Vote Leave, we will be able to increase funding to science and still save billions” –Vote Leave

(4) More money in your pocket

“Wages will be higher for working people outside the EU… because pay will no longer be undercut by uncontrolled migration.” – Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, and Gisela Stuart

(5) And scrapping VAT on fuel bills and tampons

“In 1993, VAT on household energy bills was imposed… When we Vote Leave, we will be able to scrap this unfair and damaging tax.” – Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, and Gisela Stuart

‘After we Vote Leave… We will need a carefully managed negotiation process and some major legislative changes before 2020, including taking real steps… to abolish VAT on fuel and tampons” – Chris Grayling

(6) No EU beneficiaries left worse-off

“There is more than enough money to ensure that those who now get funding from the EU – including universities, scientists, family farmers, regional funds, cultural organisations and others – will continue to do so… We will continue to fund EU programmes in the UK until 2020” – Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, and Priti Patel (amongst other signatories)

(7) And no short-term economic disruption

“After we Vote Leave, there won’t be a sudden change that disrupts the economy.” – Boris Johnson, Gisela Stuart and Michael Gove

(8) We’ll get brand new trade deals all over the world

“We would immediately be able to start negotiating new trade deals… which could enter into force immediately after the UK leaves the EU” – Chris Grayling

(9) There’ll be no damage to trade with the EU

“There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it… Britain will have access to the Single Market after we vote leave… The idea that our trade will suffer because we stop imposing terrible rules such as the Clinical Trial Directive is silly.” Vote Leave

(10) Or our cooperation with the EU

“We will negotiate a UK-EU Treaty that enables us 1) to continue cooperating in many areas just as now (e.g. maritime surveillance), 2) to deepen cooperation in some areas (e.g. scientific collaborations and counter-terrorism)” – Vote Leave

(11) Guaranteed in a treaty which we’ll sort out before 2020

“It will be possible to negotiate a new settlement with the EU, including a UK-EU free trade deal, by the next general election in May 2020” – Vote Leave

(12) Which won’t have any obligation to follow EU laws

“The supremacy of EU law and the jurisdiction of the European Court over the UK will come to an end” Vote Leave

(13) We’ll cut immigration

“I wouldn’t set a time limit for it but the ambition would be to bring it down to tens of thousands.” – Michael Gove

(14) With a new system in place by 2020

“By the next general election, we will create a genuine Australian-style points based immigration system.” – Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Gisela Stuart
(15) That doesn’t favour EU citizens

“Those seeking entry for work or study should be admitted on the basis of their skills without discrimination on the ground of nationality.” – Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Gisela Stuart

“[We will introduce a bill to] end the automatic right of all EU citizens to enter the UK by the next election” – Vote Leave

(16) But which gives Irish citizens total free access

“The right of Irish citizens to enter, reside and work in the UK is already enshrined in our law. This will be entirely unaffected by a vote to leave on 23 June.” – Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Gisela Stuart

(17) And stronger border controls

“There is one absolutely clear-cut dividend from leaving the EU. That is our ability to regain control of our borders, including far stronger powers over who we can deport, and proper preventative checks at the border.” – Dominic Raab

(18) But no controls on the Northern Irish land border with the EU

“There will be no change to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.” – Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Gisela Stuart

(19) And the union with Scotland will be stronger than ever

“If we vote to leave then I think the union will be stronger… I think when we vote to leave it will be clear that having voted to leave one union the last thing people in Scotland wanted to do is to break up another.” – Michael Gove

[K-Hod]

I don't agree, it's the ones who won't accept the democratic vote who are churlish. I'm surprised at your attitude K-Hod.

And accepts the will of the majority.

UKIP has done it's job and is no longer needed, unless of course the minority do not accept the will of the majority!

I agree that people have no choice but to accept the vote, but discussion shouldn't be stifled in my view. We'll only see in the fullness of time who was right.

[Paul]

UKIP has done it's job and is no longer needed, unless of course the minority do not accept the will of the majority!

This is an interesting thought. After 3.9 million votes and 12.6% of the ballot at the last general election the party is no longer needed. I would have thought a responsible political party would be there for its' supporters and to assist in resolving the issues around Brexit.

If it's now defunct where do 3.9 million voters go?

[Mike E]

Jim, the Polish man is a victim of a few pieces of evil scum.

To suggest he's a 'victim of Brexit' is beyond obtuse.

[jim mk2]

Oh really.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-hate-crime-racism-immigration-eu-referendum-result-what-it-means-eurospectic-areas-a7165056.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-racism-uk-post-referendum-racism-hate-crime-eu-referendum-racism-unleashed-poland-racist-a7160786.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36869000

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36835966

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/701293/race-hate-crimes-Britain-Brexit-ethnic-inequality-EU-Equality-and-Human-Rights-Commission

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-hate-idUKKCN1021KC

[Mike E]

You think one specific (and horrific) incident is 'because of Brexit'?

Not just a simple case of extreme xenophobia, which existed long before Brexit was even a thing?

I'm treating ithe as correlation, not causation. You mistake the two a LOT for someone who prides himself on being smart.

[ABBEY]

Oh really.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-hate-crime-racism-immigration-eu-referendum-result-what-it-means-eurospectic-areas-a7165056.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-racism-uk-post-referendum-racism-hate-crime-eu-referendum-racism-unleashed-poland-racist-a7160786.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36869000

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36835966

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/701293/race-hate-crimes-Britain-Brexit-ethnic-inequality-EU-Equality-and-Human-Rights-Commission

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-hate-idUKKCN1021KC

Bbc 5live yesterday said the reports of it being brexit connected were wrong .

[ABBEY]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3768075/UK-remain-Europe-s-number-one-financial-hub-decade-admits-pro-EU-bank.html

[otto man]

Unfortunately some poor Polish person has been killed in Harlow - another victim of Brexit. Racism does appear to be on the increase and while not all Brexiteers are racist most are xenophobic - there are some examples on this messageboard. It's sad that the tolerance for which this country used to be renowned is under threat because of Cameron's unnecessary referendum.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e2bed8be-6f4c-11e6-a0c9-1365ce54b926.html#axzz4IvDNmyWA

But Jim. You'd have been cheering had it been an American or Australian! ( You little xenophobe!)So because the media present it as a "hate crime", it is? It couldn't just be a bunch of mindless A***holes looking for trouble then?

[ABBEY]

http://news.sky.com/story/manufacturing-bounces-back-after-brexit-shock-10561153

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Talking of undemocratic...

Seeing as given that the Brexit vote was spread across voters of all parties (bar SNP), why is there not a cross-party group part of the negotiations?

People have voted for Brexit, not a rightwing tory version of Brexit.

Should there be a cross-party group to govern any decisions made by a referendum? It'd make governing and policy implementation problematic in Switzerland where they have several referendums a month. And the referendum for the UK to join the EU didn't involve any cross-party group. The presiding Conservative government did it their way, then Labour got into power and re-negotiated the deal so they could do it their way.

This is an interesting thought. After 3.9 million votes and 12.6% of the ballot at the last general election the party is no longer needed. I would have thought a responsible political party would be there for its' supporters and to assist in resolving the issues around Brexit.

If it's now defunct where do 3.9 million voters go?

May need to wait and see whether Brexit significantly curbs immigration before declaring UKIP defunct. If it doesn't then it could see a revival.

[Amo]

Unfortunately some poor Polish person has been killed in Harlow - another victim of Brexit. Racism does appear to be on the increase and while not all Brexiteers are racist most are xenophobic - there are some examples on this messageboard. It's sad that the tolerance for which this country used to be renowned is under threat because of Cameron's unnecessary referendum.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e2bed8be-6f4c-11e6-a0c9-1365ce54b926.html#axzz4IvDNmyWA

Has the motive for the attack been determined, or are we jumping to conclusion and exploiting an innocent man's death for political gain?

[Al]

Bored with this now. The country voted "out". End of. I don't see the point of debating it further except to whinge because some didn't get their own way.

[ABBEY]

[Mike E]

Bored with this now. The country voted "out". End of. I don't see the point of debating it further except to whinge because some didn't get their own way.

The delay is mostly on how to exit, I hope.

[Amo]

A woman at work was writing out her anti-Brexit postcards to send to Theresa May. It's a good job I keep my politics out of the workplace.

[adopted scouser]

Jim, the Polish man is a victim of a few pieces of evil scum.

To suggest he's a 'victim of Brexit' is beyond obtuse.

Did the washing up last night and put a fork in the knife drawer by mistake.

Never been the same since Brexit.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Did the washing up last night and put a fork in the knife drawer by mistake.

Never been the same since Brexit.

It's only through sheer luck that that wasn't a plastic fork, and who's going to protect that fork's family now it's in the knife drawer? Cutlery is another overlooked victim of Brexit.

[den]

Bored with this now. The country voted "out". End of. I don't see the point of debating it further except to whinge because some didn't get their own way.

It isn't certain to happen Al.

its obvious that the people who represented brexit and the people who voted both for and against it, didn't have a clue as to what happens next, or how it will affect any of the major issues. Who in their right mind would want to push through a deal that went against everything that we were promised by the brexit camp?

[jim mk2]

Meanwhile, somewhere in England, a tree fell down in an ancient wood today. And Jeremy Corbyn was not to blame.

[Paul]

It isn't certain to happen Al.

its obvious that the people who represented brexit and the people who voted both for and against it, didn't have a clue as to what happens next, or how it will affect any of the major issues. Who in their right mind would want to push through a deal that went against everything that we were promised by the brexit camp?

If by "against it" you mean those who voted remain, which I think you do, I feel we had a very good idea of what we were voting for.

It's very clear those who voted for Brexit knew only one thing, it meant leaving the EU. Everything else which was promised has rapidly proved to be untruths and/or undeliverable.

I doubt we will leave and if we do it will be on less than favourable terms. There seems to be very little discussion or desire to make progress on Brexit.

[Baz]

There seems to be very little discussion or desire to make progress on Brexit.

Indeed, this week just the 2 months after the vote, the cabinet has finally met to discuss Brexit.

We where told its the most important vote in a lifetime, yet seemingly not so important to you know, contemplate before having 6 weeks holiday. Anyway, the cabinet was told to assemble and bring with them their ideas and opportunities from Brexit, very much like that summer project you where given in the school holidays and did the day before you went back in 20 minutes.

We found out that the earliest we will apply to leave the EU is at least 2 years away. I wonder at which point the PM will let those EU workers know if they are allowed to continue to live in the UK, or wether she will continue to use them as a negotiating point?