[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[yoda]

The thing that still worries me the most is that both sides seem to just be making statements about facts, yet those facts are essentially hypothesis at best.

To the Brexit side, anyone who makes a pro-EU point is either wrong or isn't allowed to comment, whereas on the remain campaign, anyone who is pro-Brexit is rascist etc...

On the economic side of things, the money potentially being saved from leaving seems to be being spent on an awful lot of things from the Brexit campaign, the NHS, the budget deficit, and farming subsidies so far....so the government needs to clarify if we leave, then which, and to what level of funding are we using those funds.

We are never going to be given the facts Baz, I posted this previously when it came up.

JAL, on 14 Apr 2016 - 11:29 PM, said:

When ?

When do we all get full and comprehensive independent information with regards to the UK and Europe coupled with the world economy to be able to make a valid judgement on wether to stay in or come out of Europe ?

We don't,

If we did and it went the wrong way (which ever way that is) the politicians would be to blame, this way it is the voters to blame.

[jim mk2]

Not sure how you can have that signature and talk the country down at every opportunity

Really, where ?

We are never going to be given the facts Baz, I posted this previously when it came up.

The "facts" are all over the internet and the better newspapers if you look.

[yoda]

Really, where ?

The "facts" are all over the internet and the better newspapers if you look.

ha ha, I made the same assumptions you do for "my" political leanings

Now you're here how did this mongrel get past Labour's screening process

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36148704

[jim mk2]

ha ha, I made the same assumptions you do for "my" political leanings

Now you're here how did this mongrel get past Labour's screening process

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36148704

You tell me, you're Labour supporter

[yoda]

You tell me, you're Labour supporter

You've got the paint and brush, it's your corner you are in.

[jim mk2]

You raised the subject, it's your call.

Are you my stalker BTW, you seem to have a pathological need to reply to my every post.

[Biddy]

You raised the subject, it's your call.

Are you my stalker BTW, you seem to have a pathological need to reply to my every post.

Really? Methinks you responded to Yoda first just now....

He asked a perfectly good question but you chose to write a barbed response.

[yoda]

You raised the subject, it's your call.

Are you my stalker BTW, you seem to have a pathological need to reply to my every post.

Only when you post bunkum

Thanks Biddy,

Not expecting an answer from Jim to be honest

[Paul]

You like Jim seem to have drawn a conclusion as to what my political view is, based on your own political leanings.

Both of you have no idea what my personal views are.

I gave Jim a little insight as to how I think but he came out with more rhetoric.

It's quite correct I have no idea of your actual personal political views. I have though formed an opinion, correctly or otherwise, of your political views in exactly the same manner as every other member of the MB is able to do in regard to any member. My opinion is, to state the obvious, based on your posts in the exact same manner as you state an opinion on my politics leanings.

While we are discussing struggling to answer questions you asked questions on trade deals to which you stated the answers were "none" and "hundreds." Do you have any substantive evidence to confirm these answers or are these simply your own opinion?

[yoda]

It's quite correct I have no idea of your actual personal political views. I have though formed an opinion, correctly or otherwise, of your political views in exactly the same manner as every other member of the MB is able to do in regard to any member. My opinion is, to state the obvious, based on your posts in the exact same manner as you state an opinion on my politics leanings.

While we are discussing struggling to answer questions you asked questions on trade deals to which you stated the answers were "none" and "hundreds." Do you have any substantive evidence to confirm these answers or are these simply your own opinion?

I could trawl through the deals when I have time, we had trade deals spanning the world for a couple of hundred years before the EU though (some negotiated some enforced) since joining the EU, external deals are not permitted.

I see the polls yesterday showed the leave campaign in front for the 1st time.

Does it not concern you a little when money men and dubious foreign leaders start collectively jumping up and down saying we should stay in the EU, you can bet your bottom dollar they are putting their own interests first to the detriment of those less well off and further down the food chain.

Still there are a couple of notable exceptions http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36150193

Looks like a couple of million people have been taken out of the vote http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36159009

[K-Hod]

I could trawl through the deals when I have time, we had trade deals spanning the world for a couple of hundred years before the EU though (some negotiated some enforced) since joining the EU, external deals are not permitted.

I see the polls yesterday showed the leave campaign in front for the 1st time.

Does it not concern you a little when money men and dubious foreign leaders start collectively jumping up and down saying we should stay in the EU, you can bet your bottom dollar they are putting their own interests first to the detriment of those less well off and further down the food chain.

Still there are a couple of notable exceptions http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36150193

Looks like a couple of million people have been taken out of the vote http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36159009

It's the same on both sides Yoda to be fair.

There's as much misinformation as information out there and I've still got this nagging feeling that we'll regret it if we leave and haven't seen anything to change my mind. Too many aren't considering the bigger picture on both sides of the debate.

[Al]

You're right Al - it would be on the same terms. i.e. contributions to the EU budget and free movement of labour just as Norway and Switzerland do. But that rather defeats the fundamental points of the Brexit case.

You don't know that. I'm glad you won't be negotiating the trade agreements on our behalf. You've given in before we start. Perhaps Germany should contribute to us for taking their cars.

Free movement of labour is precisely what we need to stop.

[yoda]

It's the same on both sides Yoda to be fair.

There's as much misinformation as information out there and I've still got this nagging feeling that we'll regret it if we leave and haven't seen anything to change my mind. Too many aren't considering the bigger picture on both sides of the debate.

Well you can't get much bigger than the world

[K-Hod]

Well you can't get much bigger than the world

You can't, but I don't think there are many not considering that.

[yoda]

You can't, but I don't think there are many not considering that.

What I see is stay saying the EU is the only game in town

[K-Hod]

What I see is stay saying the EU is the only game in town

I've seen folk saying it's the best option, which is obviously where many disagree. On balance, even in The Guardian there have been 'Pro Brexit' pieces to be fair.

[yoda]

I've seen folk saying it's the best option, which is obviously where many disagree. On balance, even in The Guardian there have been 'Pro Brexit' pieces to be fair.

Looks like it is going to be a close call, latest polls 40% stay 41% leave

[jim mk2]

Who are the Brexiteers ?

To judge from the ones I've met in the main they are angry, bitter old men (not women) hankering after an England (not Britain) that no longer exists and is never going to return. They have resented immigrants from the 1950s when the first started to arrive in numbers and they do not understand the globalised nature of the modern world and the need for free movement of peoples that comes with it.

The problem for the Remain camp is that the age group mostly likely to affected by a Brexit (because they will be paying the economic price for decades to come) are the millennials, and polls show that although young people are overwhelmingly in favour of the EU because of general apathy over politics and the voting process they are also the group that is least likely to vote on June 23. Persuading these young people to come out and vote is the prime task of the Remainers.

[perthblue02]

Could the older age group that you refer to Jim, also not be an element of anger that they were conned in what they thought they were voting for originally? and successive Governments blue and red have denied the British public the chance to get out of the bloated Euro playground that it has become

I say this because that is the view of my 79 and 76 year old parents, Once bitten twice shy so to speak.

[yoda]

Who are the Brexiteers ?

To judge from the ones I've met in the main they are angry, bitter old men (not women) hankering after an England (not Britain) that no longer exists and is never going to return. They have resented immigrants from the 1950s when the first started to arrive in numbers and they do not understand the globalised nature of the modern world and the need for free movement of peoples that comes with it.

The problem for the Remain camp is that the age group mostly likely to affected by a Brexit (because they will be paying the economic price for decades to come) are the millennials, and polls show that although young people are overwhelmingly in favour of the EU because of general apathy over politics and the voting process they are also the group that is least likely to vote on June 23. Persuading these young people to come out and vote is the prime task of the Remainers.

Didn't have you down as a Bilderberg Jim

[perthblue02]

Didn't have you down as a Bilderberg Jim

Its amazing to see who is in bed with JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs isn't it, Tony and his wife and their brand of socialism certainly did change the Labour Party didn't they. Is red the new blue?

The Red Flag (1997 version)

We will keep the bankers bonuses high,

because of invisible weapons people will die,

While we drink champagne instead of beer,

We'll keep the red flag flying here.

[Paul]

I could trawl through the deals when I have time, we had trade deals spanning the world for a couple of hundred years before the EU though (some negotiated some enforced) since joining the EU, external deals are not permitted.

I see the polls yesterday showed the leave campaign in front for the 1st time.

Does it not concern you a little when money men and dubious foreign leaders start collectively jumping up and down saying we should stay in the EU, you can bet your bottom dollar they are putting their own interests first to the detriment of those less well off and further down the food chain.

Still there are a couple of notable exceptions http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36150193

Looks like a couple of million people have been taken out of the vote http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36159009

The polls have been showing the leave campaign ahead amongst voters for some time. 43% in early April but a poll this week showed only 20% expect us to actually leave. Interesting.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referendum/65461/eu-referendum-poll-remain-pulls-ahead-of-leave-campaign

Which dubious foreign leaders?

Money men on both sides will have their own reasons, probably financial, for wishing us in or out. Are you trying to state the money men who want in are the untrustworthy ones but the out supporters are philanthropists with halos.

I can't see why anyone who has chosen to live outside of the UK for 34 years can expect a vote. Note the following from the Electoral Commision.

http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registration/can-i-still-vote-if-i-move-overseas

"British citizens living abroad for more than 15 years are not eligible to register to vote in UK elections"

I do know this is a referendum and not an election but the right to vote or not was enshrined in the Referendum Act 2015 which basically follows the well established electoral process. Has Mr Shindler challenged that in the courts as well? Thought not. So we have to presume his interest is self-driven.

[yoda]

The polls have been showing the leave campaign ahead amongst voters for some time. 43% in early April but a poll this week showed only 20% expect us to actually leave. Interesting.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referendum/65461/eu-referendum-poll-remain-pulls-ahead-of-leave-campaign

Which dubious foreign leaders?

Money men on both sides will have their own reasons, probably financial, for wishing us in or out. Are you trying to state the money men who want in are the untrustworthy ones but the out supporters are philanthropists with halos.

I can't see why anyone who has chosen to live outside of the UK for 34 years can expect a vote. Note the following from the Electoral Commision.

http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registration/can-i-still-vote-if-i-move-overseas

"British citizens living abroad for more than 15 years are not eligible to register to vote in UK elections"

I do know this is a referendum and not an election but the right to vote or not was enshrined in the Referendum Act 2015 which basically follows the well established electoral process. Has Mr Shindler challenged that in the courts as well? Thought not. So we have to presume his interest is self-driven.

Leaders like Obama and Merkel.

The money men doing the majority of shouting I would say want the status quo to carry on as it lines their pockets.

With you on the living outside the UK re votes. I can't imagine the stay leaders are though, as the majority of ex pats would vote stay in the hope of protecting their pensions. That is about 2 million stay voters out of the frame.

[Al]

Who are the Brexiteers ?

To judge from the ones I've met in the main they are angry, bitter old men (not women) hankering after an England (not Britain) that no longer exists and is never going to return. They have resented immigrants from the 1950s when the first started to arrive in numbers and they do not understand the globalised nature of the modern world and the need for free movement of peoples that comes with it.

The problem for the Remain camp is that the age group mostly likely to affected by a Brexit (because they will be paying the economic price for decades to come) are the millennials, and polls show that although young people are overwhelmingly in favour of the EU because of general apathy over politics and the voting process they are also the group that is least likely to vote on June 23. Persuading these young people to come out and vote is the prime task of the Remainers.

It may never return to what it was but at least we can make sure that it doesn't get any worse by stopping immigration NOW.

[Al]

Could the older age group that you refer to Jim, also not be an element of anger that they were conned in what they thought they were voting for originally? and successive Governments blue and red have denied the British public the chance to get out of the bloated Euro playground that it has become

I say this because that is the view of my 79 and 76 year old parents, Once bitten twice shy so to speak.

Absolutely Perth. This United States of Europe is a million miles from what we voted for. A market free of tariffs Full Stop. The government had no mandate for allowing Brussels to be so dictatorial.

Leaders like Obama and Merkel.

The money men doing the majority of shouting I would say want the status quo to carry on as it lines their pockets.

With you on the living outside the UK re votes. I can't imagine the stay leaders are though, as the majority of ex pats would vote stay in the hope of protecting their pensions. That is about 2 million stay voters out of the frame.

It's not just the pensions but their free health schemes in the EU. I can see their problem but they did choose to live abroad.