[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[jim mk2]

Rather like your nonsense about the "left-wing BBC" then.

Touche.

[Paul]

Is low pay not the reason why it is hard to find people to do the work, supply and demand

In my experience low pay has nothing whatsoever to do with it. I can only comment about the industries I know, agriculture and horticulture, which have both been subject to wage regulation in various forms for at least 40 years. When I began working the industry ran entirely on UK labour, today I would estimate 90% of the labour is foreign. The pay is the same regardless of nationality. Now if low pay is the issue I'm sure growers and farmers would be happy to pay more for labour. Would though the great British public pay more for food? No of course not. Why? Simply sections of the public love to bang on about migrants, low pay, stealing our jobs etc. when the reality is firstly the British as a whole do not understand the quality of food and secondly are not prepared to pay a proper price for it.

How many people on here are prepared to pull leeks at 5.00am?

How much is a pint of milk really worth? Pound of tomatoes?

[yoda]

In my experience low pay has nothing whatsoever to do with it. I can only comment about the industries I know, agriculture and horticulture, which have both been subject to wage regulation in various forms for at least 40 years. When I began working the industry ran entirely on UK labour, today I would estimate 90% of the labour is foreign. The pay is the same regardless of nationality. Now if low pay is the issue I'm sure growers and farmers would be happy to pay more for labour. Would though the great British public pay more for food? No of course not. Why? Simply sections of the public love to bang on about migrants, low pay, stealing our jobs etc. when the reality is firstly the British as a whole do not understand the quality of food and secondly are not prepared to pay a proper price for it.

How many people on here are prepared to pull leeks at 5.00am?

How much is a pint of milk really worth? Pound of tomatoes?

I am not sure what you are trying to tell me Paul, I replied to the post that contained

"There are tens of thousands of jobs filled by migrant EU labour which would be unfilled if we put a stop to EU labour entering the UK"

why would these jobs be unfilled ?

By wage regulation do you mean a maximum wage, a wage determined by subsidies.

Or is it that the tens of thousands of jobs filled by migrant workers are at a lower rate of pay so the goods can be sold at a price customers/hyper markets are prepared to pay.

Are you sure your point is not economic ?

[Al]

In my experience low pay has nothing whatsoever to do with it. I can only comment about the industries I know, agriculture and horticulture, which have both been subject to wage regulation in various forms for at least 40 years. When I began working the industry ran entirely on UK labour, today I would estimate 90% of the labour is foreign. The pay is the same regardless of nationality. Now if low pay is the issue I'm sure growers and farmers would be happy to pay more for labour. Would though the great British public pay more for food? No of course not. Why? Simply sections of the public love to bang on about migrants, low pay, stealing our jobs etc. when the reality is firstly the British as a whole do not understand the quality of food and secondly are not prepared to pay a proper price for it.

How many people on here are prepared to pull leeks at 5.00am?

How much is a pint of milk really worth? Pound of tomatoes?

I for one Paul would happily pay a few pence more for milk. The way the supermarkets rip off the dairy farmers is scandalous and something should be done about it. Unfortunately I don't know what. Same with tomatoes.

Although I'm sure there would be plenty of people prepared to pull leeks at 5am if the wage was right. Unfortunately I would think that as soon as all the leeks were pulled they would be out of a job. There must be a way to make their employment more permanent but being totally ignorant of the industry I don't have any ideas.

[Paul]

I am not sure what you are trying to tell me Paul, I replied to the post that contained

"There are tens of thousands of jobs filled by migrant EU labour which would be unfilled if we put a stop to EU labour entering the UK"

why would these jobs be unfilled ?

By wage regulation do you mean a maximum wage, a wage determined by subsidies.

Or is it that the tens of thousands of jobs filled by migrant workers are at a lower rate of pay so the goods can be sold at a price customers/hyper markets are prepared to pay.

Are you sure your point is not economic ?

As I understood your post the suggestion was these positions are low paid and as such are filled by those, migrant labour, prepared to work that wage. I thought you suggested wages should increase to a point whereby local labour would be prepared to take the work. My response to this us twofold; firstly the British generally under value food and simply expect it to be cheap, therefore if we want these positions filled by local workers the public has to be prepared to pay more for food. Secondly my experience of the last 10-15 years is UK workers simply do not want to work in these industries. It's not uncommon for local labour to fail to turn up for the second day. No exaggeration.

By wage regulation I mean a statutory minimum wage. When I joined the industry this was determined by the Agricultural Wages Board, currently it is the National Living Wage. There are no wage subsidies in agriculture and horticulture.

[joey_big_nose]

The problem with the left is that enshrines power in government, allegedly to advance the cause of "equality" but actually for the benefit of the rich, powerful and well connected at the expense of the working man and middle income families.

An analysis not based in fact in my opinion. Greatest rise in equality and improvements in working conditions are closely linked to left leaning governments - eg. Roosevelts New Deal, Atlee etc.

While theres a strong argument that left leaning government depresses productivity and innovation, I cant see any evidence in your statement above that the left has driven inequality. Maybe under Blair and Clinton? However compared to the huge acceleration of inequality under Reagan, Thatcher and the two Bushs it seems negligable.

[yoda]

An analysis not based in fact in my opinion. Greatest rise in equality and improvements in working conditions are closely linked to left leaning governments - eg. Roosevelts New Deal, Atlee etc.

While theres a strong argument that left leaning government depresses productivity and innovation, I cant see any evidence in your statement above that the left has driven inequality. Maybe under Blair and Clinton? However compared to the huge acceleration of inequality under Reagan, Thatcher and the two Bushs it seems negligable.

What has any of that got to do with leaving or staying in the EU ?

[Biddy]

More woeful scare mongering by the remain campaign. http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/cameron-brexit-will-increase-risk-of-europe-descending-into-war/ar-BBsMRk5?li=BBoPWjQ

[jim mk2]

The EU was formed in large part as a response to two world wars in Europe and a way of promoting co-operation, better links and understanding. So in that respect, the potential break-up of the EU risks going back to the nationalism and partizanship of the 20th century and Cameron's warning is not scaremongering at all.

[Biddy]

Indeed, 6 countries formed the EU with a background to work together to prevent further wars. The UK however didn't join until 1973, which had nothing to do with a threat of war in Europe.

Do you really believe that if we left the EU, Europe would somehow revert to chaos and we'd all be headed to war with each other. Utter barmy statements. Still, if we did, it's a good job we've kept trident as a deterrent!

[Al]

The EU started as a common market not a United States of Europe. That is what we were asked to vote for. I would still vote for a common market but certainly not for being ruled by Brussels which the EU is fast becoming. We did not vote for that at all.

[joey_big_nose]

What has any of that got to do with leaving or staying in the EU ?

I was responding to Steve's comment which was a general statement.

[yoda]

The EU was formed in large part as a response to two world wars in Europe and a way of promoting co-operation, better links and understanding. So in that respect, the potential break-up of the EU risks going back to the nationalism and partizanship of the 20th century and Cameron's warning is not scaremongering at all.

It is way over the top sensationalism with no relevance to relations in Europe today. It will no doubt have got the stay voters thinking if it such a big deal, why start the referendum process in the 1st place.

Is you signature referring to Britain or not, it can't be referring to the EU can it ?

I was responding to Steve's comment which was a general statement.

Thanks for confirming it was irrelevant.

[joey_big_nose]

More woeful scare mongering by the remain campaign. http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/cameron-brexit-will-increase-risk-of-europe-descending-into-war/ar-BBsMRk5?li=BBoPWjQ

I'm broadly pro EU, but even I find it bizarre to raise the spectre of war in Western Europe. If you want to look at a conflict angle surely the more credible threat is to highlight the important role the EU has to play in countering Russian expansionism.

[yoda]

I'm broadly pro EU, but even I find it bizarre to raise the spectre of war in Western Europe. If you want to look at a conflict angle surely the more credible threat is to highlight the important role the EU has to play in countering Russian expansionism.

Yep, they did a good job with the Crimea

[jim mk2]

Indeed, 6 countries formed the EU with a background to work together to prevent further wars. The UK however didn't join until 1973, which had nothing to do with a threat of war in Europe.

Do you really believe that if we left the EU, Europe would somehow revert to chaos and we'd all be headed to war with each other. Utter barmy statements. Still, if we did, it's a good job we've kept trident as a deterrent!

Cameron has correctly identified the dangers of rise of nationalism in the event of a breakup of the EU (which could happen as a result of Brexit). Trump has also plugged into the nationalism theme in the US with talk of "making America great again" and his appeal to uneducated white blue collar Americans. European nationalism led to centuries of war across the continent - in the 70 years since 1945 there hasn't been any. Now it's unlikely Germany and France will go to war again but the threat of rising nationalism in Europe makes some sort of conflict somewhere more likely.

It is way over the top sensationalism with no relevance to relations in Europe today. It will no doubt have got the stay voters thinking if it such a big deal, why start the referendum process in the 1st place.

You know why he promised a referendum - to win over potential Ukip voters before last year's election. That's the whole point of the June 23 poll - it's totally unnecessary.

[yoda]

Cameron has correctly identified the dangers of rise of nationalism in the event of a breakup of the EU (which could happen as a result of Brexit). Trump has also plugged into the nationalism theme in the US with talk of "making America great again" and his appeal to uneducated white blue collar Americans. European nationalism led to centuries of war across the continent - in the 70 years since 1945 there hasn't been any. Now it's unlikely Germany and France will go to war again but the threat of rising nationalism in Europe makes some sort of conflict somewhere more likely.

You know why he promised a referendum - to win over potential Ukip voters before last year's election. That's the whole point of the June 23 poll - it's totally unnecessary.

It's NATO that has kept the peace in Europe, nearly, the EU have dithered

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Even a brief look at military spending statistics, both historically and current, show clearly that its America and America only who is responsible for keeping Russia and China somewhat in their boxes. Our military spending is pathetic compared to America's, France and Germany's is less than ours, and there's no point in even mentioning the other EU countries.

Its faintly comical to hear people talk about defence as an argument for staying in the EU, who were venting their spleen at the thought of even using military force against the pure evil that is IS. If we're not attacking IS, if Corbyn wants to disband Trident, and if defence spending in the EU is at an all time low, then lets cut the bull and not even mention the almost embarassing argument that we should be in the EU to keep our military muscles flexed. In practice we have a public that balk at the idea of using military force for anything in any circumstance, and defence spending that increasingly reflects that. The extremely dangerous Saudi Arabia have a defence budget the equivalent of us and Germany combined.

As ever on this issue, we are entirely dependent on the US. Not that a sizeable percentage on this board would ever thank them for it.

[Beta Ray Bill]

Can someone explain this to me?

Employer on local news advocating exit stating one of the reasons is that foreigners accept lower paid jobs than the British. This forces British out of work.

OK, so we leave the EU and this cheap labour is no longer available. Wages have to rise to attract the British to fill these roles.

So why not raise wages to a level that attracts more applicants (of a racial stock you seem to prefer) now if you're that bothered?

Or maybe you're actually trying to maximise your profits, and will moan that you can't make enough in we do exit?

Campaign for exit if you want, but at least have logic to your reasons.

[Al]

Can someone explain this to me?

Employer on local news advocating exit stating one of the reasons is that foreigners accept lower paid jobs than the British. This forces British out of work.

OK, so we leave the EU and this cheap labour is no longer available. Wages have to rise to attract the British to fill these roles.

So why not raise wages to a level that attracts more applicants (of a racial stock you seem to prefer) now if you're that bothered?

Or maybe you're actually trying to maximise your profits, and will moan that you can't make enough in we do exit?

Campaign for exit if you want, but at least have logic to your reasons.

I think you have just explained a logical reason for me. Employers won't raise wages if they don't have to, preferring to employ cheap foreign labour, to the detriment of British workers.

[Al]

USA have increased the import tax on Chinese steel being dumped there by 500%. If the EU (or Britain outside of the EU) did the same it would greatly reduce the pressure on Tata Steel.

[K-Hod]

USA have increased the import tax on Chinese steel being dumped there by 500%. If the EU (or Britain outside of the EU) did the same it would greatly reduce the pressure on Tata Steel.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a8da356a-f753-11e5-96db-fc683b5e52db.html#axzz48zy4z6X7

[Al]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a8da356a-f753-11e5-96db-fc683b5e52db.html#axzz48zy4z6X7

Sorry pal but I'm not prepared to pay to read the FT online. Are they accusing China too?

[K-Hod]

Sorry pal but I'm not prepared to pay to read the FT online. Are they accusing China too?

Ah right, sorry did it try and make you pay? I managed to get on it for free!

It was basically saying that the EU tried to step in and save us, but our government blocked it.....

In any case, in the whole debate, it would be nice if either side could debate without scaremongering!

[Al]

Ah right, sorry did it try and make you pay? I managed to get on it for free!

It was basically saying that the EU tried to step in and save us, but our government blocked it.....

That was stupid then. When did that happen?