[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[K-Hod]

That was stupid then. When did that happen?

It won't let me back on the article, but it was around that time I think. The government was accused of having a lax attitude to the Chinese steel dumping to 'cosy up to the Chinese government'. But then if you google it further you've got the UKIP Deputy Leader blaming the closure on Tata Steel (though I suppose he WOULD) so the truth is no doubt somewhere in between.....

[Beta Ray Bill]

I think you have just explained a logical reason for me. Employers won't raise wages if they don't have to, preferring to employ cheap foreign labour, to the detriment of British workers.

And you think he will cut his profit margins or raise prices? It's just a nonsense to suggest this as a valid reason for cutting immigration.

[jim mk2]

It won't let me back on the article, but it was around that time I think. The government was accused of having a lax attitude to the Chinese steel dumping to 'cosy up to the Chinese government'. But then if you google it further you've got the UKIP Deputy Leader blaming the closure on Tata Steel (though I suppose he WOULD) so the truth is no doubt somewhere in between.....

It was widely reported weeks ago that the Tory govt blocked EU attempts to clamp down on Chinese steel dumping - which just happened to coincide with President Li's visit to Britain. Presumably the Tories deem 11,000 manufacturing jobs and the future of British steelmaking is less important than cosying up a nation with an appalling human rights record.

[Al]

And you think he will cut his profit margins or raise prices? It's just a nonsense to suggest this as a valid reason for cutting immigration.

No it's not! If a business cannot pay proper wages to it's employees it should not be in business. Importing cheap labour stops proper wages being paid and it is wrong.

[Beta Ray Bill]

No it's not! If a business cannot pay proper wages to it's employees it should not be in business. Importing cheap labour stops proper wages being paid and it is wrong.

I don't diasgree that proper wage's shouldn't exist. But no one apart from himself is determining that. Minimum wage is not compulsory!

What this guy was saying though was his wages are low because of cheap labour stopping British people getting jobs and they demand a higher salary.

If he wants to remain in business, with British workers, he acknowledged he needs to pay more. If he does so, there is zero chance he will reduce his profit, so consumers pay more.

Or he could pack up business which you seem to suggest. He didn't seem to be the type to throw himself on his sword. So what is more likely? Him reducing his profit, consumers paying more, him moaning about British workers being unreasonable on wage demands for manual labour?

Blaming immigration workers for his profit (greed?!) is not a logical reason for exit. If he was that concerned about British labo u r rates, he'd address it now.

[yoda]

I don't diasgree that proper wage's shouldn't exist. But no one apart from himself is determining that. Minimum wage is not compulsory!

What this guy was saying though was his wages are low because of cheap labour stopping British people getting jobs and they demand a higher salary.

If he wants to remain in business, with British workers, he acknowledged he needs to pay more. If he does so, there is zero chance he will reduce his profit, so consumers pay more.

Or he could pack up business which you seem to suggest. He didn't seem to be the type to throw himself on his sword. So what is more likely? Him reducing his profit, consumers paying more, him moaning about British workers being unreasonable on wage demands for manual labour?

Blaming immigration workers for his profit (greed?!) is not a logical reason for exit. If he was that concerned about British labo u r rates, he'd address it now.

Why do you class profit as greed ?

[Beta Ray Bill]

I don't. Just that this particular person doesn't want to pay wages he could or suggests he could. He clearly won't amy blames the workers having the audacity to accept lower wages as a reason for his employment practices.

[Biddy]

I think you'll find he wants everything for nothing.

Basically, come out of the EU and we could then stop importing cheap labour.

He will not put wages up.

He will then rely on the government making UK workers (that currently cannot be arsed doing manual labour) be forced into these jobs at those wages or lose their benefits.

[Al]

I don't diasgree that proper wage's shouldn't exist. But no one apart from himself is determining that. Minimum wage is not compulsory!

What this guy was saying though was his wages are low because of cheap labour stopping British people getting jobs and they demand a higher salary.

If he wants to remain in business, with British workers, he acknowledged he needs to pay more. If he does so, there is zero chance he will reduce his profit, so consumers pay more.

Or he could pack up business which you seem to suggest. He didn't seem to be the type to throw himself on his sword. So what is more likely? Him reducing his profit, consumers paying more, him moaning about British workers being unreasonable on wage demands for manual labour?

Blaming immigration workers for his profit (greed?!) is not a logical reason for exit. If he was that concerned about British labo u r rates, he'd address it now.

How a person treats his business is irrelevant. The point is that cheap imported labour reduces wages for British workers and you now appear to be changing the subject of the discussion which was cheap foreign labour being a legitimate reason for Brexit. Nobody except unscrupulous and inefficient employers want to see very low wages. As I said before if proper wages cannot be paid the business is not viable. It's not a case of packing up a business. They should not be in business in the first place if they do not pay proper wages.

I thought that minimum wages were compulsory. If they are not then they should be!

EDIT.

I have just looked up in GOV.UK and it is a criminal offence to pay less than the minimum wage, which in my opinion is not enough.

[Al]

I have no dog in this particular fight, but does the EU prevent you from deciding who enters the UK and/or whether they get benefits?

Basically YES!

[yoda]

How a person treats his business is irrelevant. The point is that cheap imported labour reduces wages for British workers and you now appear to be changing the subject of the discussion which was cheap foreign labour being a legitimate reason for Brexit. Nobody except unscrupulous and inefficient employers want to see very low wages. As I said before if proper wages cannot be paid the business is not viable. It's not a case of packing up a business. They should not be in business in the first place if they do not pay proper wages.

I thought that minimum wages were compulsory. If they are not then they should be!

EDIT.

I have just looked up in GOV.UK and it is a criminal offence to pay less than the minimum wage, which in my opinion is not enough.

I think BRB was trying to say it is not compulsary to pay the minimum wage meaning they could pay higher, I may be wrong in that assumption though.

Paul has made some interesting contributions on this subject recently as the industry he is in historically pays relatively low wages.

Fit and able people work when they are hungry.

[Steve Moss]

Basically YES!

Then I would get out. If a nation cannot control it's borders and cannot limit the benefits it provides to it's own citizens, it is no nation.

We have a bit of the same problem here in the USA, and it's driving Trump's election.

[jim mk2]

How a person treats his business is irrelevant. The point is that cheap imported labour reduces wages for British workers and you now appear to be changing the subject of the discussion which was cheap foreign labour being a legitimate reason for Brexit. Nobody except unscrupulous and inefficient employers want to see very low wages. As I said before if proper wages cannot be paid the business is not viable. It's not a case of packing up a business. They should not be in business in the first place if they do not pay proper wages.

I thought that minimum wages were compulsory. If they are not then they should be!

EDIT.

I have just looked up in GOV.UK and it is a criminal offence to pay less than the minimum wage, which in my opinion is not enough.

Apart from a minor effect in retail and catering (shops and restaurants) numerous studies (which I have provided links for) there is no evidence that this is the case. Just because you keep repeating it doesn't mean it's true.

[Biddy]

Dennis Skinner seems to think its true. A true Labour man.

[jim mk2]

Dennis Skinner seems to think its true. A true Labour man.

Recent article on the subject

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0deacb52-178b-11e6-9d98-00386a18e39d.html#axzz497A56umP

Some more reading

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/labour-market-effects-immigration

[Biddy]

No comment on Dennis Skinner? and I can't read the FT and I'm not subscribing to it.

[jim mk2]

Recent article on the subject

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0deacb52-178b-11e6-9d98-00386a18e39d.html#axzz497A56umP

Some more reading

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/labour-market-effects-immigration

and more

http://www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/how-small-small-impact-immigration-uk-wages#.Vz3YMPmDFBc

[Al]

Give us all the quotes you wish Jim but we all know that immigrant labour is cheap and allows unscrupulous employers to employ them to the detriment of unskilled British labour. We are stupid enough to let them in to reduce the number of unskilled jobs available for our own people. This has the effect of reducing the bottom end pay. Just the people you campaign for.

[jim mk2]

Give us all the quotes you wish Jim but we all know that immigrant labour is cheap and allows unscrupulous employers to employ them to the detriment of unskilled British labour. We are stupid enough to let them in to reduce the number of unskilled jobs available for our own people. This has the effect of reducing the bottom end pay. Just the people you campaign for.

"We all know". You haven't read the evidence then.

[Biddy]

Dennis Skinner agrees with Al, as I keep pointing out. Or do we not like the best labour MP ever when he has differing views?

[Al]

"We all know". You haven't read the evidence then.

Your quotes are not "evidence" merely opinions.

[jim mk2]

It's extensive research conducted by independent organisations. That's not opinions.

[Biddy]

That last link was just an opinion piece picking up on various (selected) research. The comments at the bottom was a much better read with thought out arguments and comments. Much better than the actual article.

[Biddy]

from the middle link

UK studies find that immigration has small impact on average wages but more significant impacts along the wage distribution: low-waged workers lose while medium and high-paid workers gain

The effects of immigration on workers within specific wage ranges or in specific occupations are more significant. The greatest wage effects are found for low-waged workers. Dustmann et al (2013) find that each 1% increase in the share of migrants in the UK-born working age population leads to a 0.6% decline in the wages of the 5% lowest paid workers and to an increase in the wages of higher paid workers.

It's all very well some of the research saying there is a "very small" impact on wages as that is correct, across the average. It's the lowest earners that see the biggest negative impact.

[jim mk2]

That last link was just an opinion piece picking up on various (selected) research. The comments at the bottom was a much better read with thought out arguments and comments. Much better than the actual article.

better than the NIESR ?

And more.

UCL research comes to the same conclusion.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctpb21/doc/CDP_11_08.pdf