[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[Paul]

I think BRB was trying to say it is not compulsary to pay the minimum wage meaning they could pay higher, I may be wrong in that assumption though.

Paul has made some interesting contributions on this subject recently as the industry he is in historically pays relatively low wages.

Fit and able people work when they are hungry.

I think the key words are historically and relatively. I've been in agriculture (limited experience) and horticulture (40+ years) and have seen many changes. If we accept employees fall in to two broad bands, staff and management, I can state without hesitation no one enters horticulture for the money. Having said that skilled, motivated people can and do earn very good salaries but probably could earn at least 25% more in other industries. There is a strong element of enjoyment, lifestyle and the ambience of the industry which many, including myself, see as a significant benefit.

In retail horticulture, garden centres, management will be paid at or near senior retail levels.

Staff, labour, are paid at least the National Living Wage. Historically wages were governed by the Agricultural Wages Board, whether too high or low is debatable the point being there is and has been a minimum legal standard for all.

When I began working at 18, I didn't take up secondary education till later, the workforce would be 100% British. Today in our company the permanent staff count is 11, 8 have at least 20 years service. The three most recently joined are young Poles who originally arrived as seasonal labour, they are now key staff members and team leaders. Today we have an additional 32 seasonal workers on site, all Polish, many from the same extended families who come here every year.

I've no doubt some will not believe me but the reason we employ non British labour is we simply cannot find the people. We pay the NLW to seasonal labour as required by law. Without this seasonal labour we would close.

It is an absolute fact the entire UK agricultural and horticultural industries are totally reliant on foreign seasonal labour. I'm old enough to remember the groups of travelling British workers who moved from one job or crop to another throughout the year. Those people simply do not exist today. I'm not talking of gang masters etc. just loosely organised labour that knew where and when to turn up for a few weeks work. Like east Londoners who in post war years would move to Kent for harvest and treat it as a holiday.

Now it can be argued if the industry paid more we would attract more people. Possibly but experience tells me this is not true and the type of work is what deters people. In my specific sector labour is 35/40% of production cost. Increased wages would have a significant impact on cost price.

If we leave the EU this labour will still be required and the industry will successfully lobby government for special consideration to employ foreign seasonal labour. It's happened before and will happen again. BREXIT will have an impact on us but it will not reduce foreign labour in the industry.

We've all read the daft stories of the EU cucumber regulation or similar. Yes there is some nonsense BUT take it from me overall British horticulture benefits hugely from EU membership, no subsidies I should add, and to step back to years gone by would be a disaster.

One small example. Many ornamental plants produced in the EU require a health passport, freedom from disease etc. This is now pan European and very effective. 40 years ago every import of the same product required a licence, often a quarantine period and physical inspection by plant health officials in the country of origin prior to export followed by the same inspection on arrival in the UK by MAFF health inspectors.

All this was swept away within in the EU - red tape works both ways but you only ever read about the daft stuff.

[Beta Ray Bill]

I think BRB was trying to say it is not compulsary to pay the minimum wage meaning they could pay higher, I may be wrong in that assumption though.

Paul has made some interesting contributions on this subject recently as the industry he is in historically pays relatively low wages.

Fit and able people work when they are hungry.

Exactly.

He was saying he wants to employ British people BUT the fact foreign workers will take lower wages means he simply CANNOT recruit British workers.

This is utter nonsense. The only reason - and one that is perfectly legitimate - is that he wants to maximise profit.

If he wanted to attract British workers who might demand say £12 ph rather than £9 ph, all he has to do is raise the wages. No one, absolutely noone, EXCEPT HIMSELF is leading to the lower wage.

Lose the supply of £9ph labour and he has 3 choices...

Cut profit

Increase price to cover profit

Stop trading

Which will he do?

[jim mk2]

How do the Brexiteers feel about this?

Vote Leave is wooing British Asians to vote for a Brexit on the basis that East Europeans have easy access to UK but people from the Commonweallth do not. Vote Leave says a Brexit would allow more people from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc to come to the UK at the expense of EU citizens.

Now I might have this wrong but don't the Brexiteers want to stop all immigration and the last thing they want is more non-white people coming here?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/94adcefa-1dd5-11e6-a7bc-ee846770ec15.html#axzz497A56umP

[yoda]

Exactly.

He was saying he wants to employ British people BUT the fact foreign workers will take lower wages means he simply CANNOT recruit British workers.

This is utter nonsense. The only reason - and one that is perfectly legitimate - is that he wants to maximise profit.

If he wanted to attract British workers who might demand say £12 ph rather than £9 ph, all he has to do is raise the wages. No one, absolutely noone, EXCEPT HIMSELF is leading to the lower wage.

Lose the supply of £9ph labour and he has 3 choices...

Cut profit

Increase price to cover profit

Stop trading

Which will he do?

Did you read Paul's post above.

If he is a businessman he should be maximising his profit, without it he cannot invest in the business to make it more competitive and secure.

You seem a bit agitated by the term for some reason.

How do the Brexiteers feel about this?

Vote Leave is wooing British Asians to vote for a Brexit on the basis that East Europeans have easy access to UK but people from the Commonweallth do not. Vote Leave says a Brexit would allow more people from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc to come to the UK at the expense of EU citizens.

Now I might have this wrong but don't the Brexiteers want to stop all immigration and the last thing they want is more non-white people coming here?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/94adcefa-1dd5-11e6-a7bc-ee846770ec15.html#axzz497A56umP

Playing the racist card there Jim, are you loosing the argument ?

[jim mk2]

Playing the racist card there Jim, are you loosing the argument ?

Not al all. Have you read the piece?

[yoda]

Not al all. Have you read the piece?

No, you need to subscribe as you well know, why not cut and past it ?

Here is one for you JIm,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/5533081/Kinnocks-have-six-state-pensions-worth-185000-per-year-says-think-tank.html

you don't need to pay for it, wait a minute, we already have!

[jim mk2]

The gist of the story is in my post. As a swivel-eyed Brexiteer I wondered what your thoughts are.

[yoda]

The gist of the story is in my post. As a swivel-eyed Brexiteer I wondered what your thoughts are.

Personal insults won't prompt me to reply to your racist questions

Another free read for you Jim

http://lionheartnews.com/2016/05/watch-now-french-voters-call-for-frexit-after-germany-face-demands-for-eu-referendum/

[jim mk2]

So you don't have an opinion on the fact that the Vote Leave campaign is actively seeking the support of Asian voters by promising to allow more immigrants from Commonwealth countries in the event of a Brexit ?

[yoda]

More economic bullstein from Osbourne

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/chancellor-this-eu-referendum-spin-just-wont-fly/

So you don't have an opinion on the fact that the Vote Leave campaign is actively seeking the support of Asian voters by promising to allow more immigrants from Commonwealth countries in the event of a Brexit ?

Funny, I am sure I said I could not read the piece without paying for it.

[jim mk2]

More economic bullstein from Osbourne

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/chancellor-this-eu-referendum-spin-just-wont-fly/

Funny, I am sure I said I could not read the piece without paying for it.

I told you what the article said - twice. Any thoughts?

[yoda]

I told you what the article said - twice. Any thoughts?

No Jim, you told me your interpretation of it

[jim mk2]

Here you are

Vote Leave woos British Asians with migration leaflets

Jim Pickard, Chief Political Correspondent

Vote Leave is hoping to secure the backing of British Asians by telling them that if Britain quits the EU, it will mean more immigration from elsewhere in the world.

The official Out campaign is drawing up leaflets aimed at Punjabi, Hindi and Urdu speakers arguing that a British exit from the EU would help to stem the flow of Eastern Europeans into the UK — allowing more incomers from Commonwealth countries to take their place.

Saqib Bhatti, a board member for Vote Leave, said English-language leaflets had been sent out to Muslim voters, while others in different languages were set to follow.

The pamphlets argue that people with EU passports can just “walk in” to Britain.

“South Asian immigrants have ancestors who fought in the world wars, they sacrificed a lot, they speak the language, they have the skills, they are well educated,” said Mr Bhatti. “But they find it hard to come in compared to other individuals from Europe who may not speak the language, understand the culture or have the skills.”

The leaflets also emphasise the increasingly far-right tinge to politics in Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, Germany and Denmark. “We don’t want them influencing our laws and our policies,” said Mr Bhatti.

He also said a leaflet from the rival Conservative In campaign promised to stop non-EU families from coming to Britain.

Vote Leave recently marshalled 80 business and community leaders from Commonwealth backgrounds to write to David Cameron calling for Britain to take back “autonomy in the field of migration”. The letter said: “Whilst EU citizens enjoy freedom of movement and no restrictions on their stay in the UK, those coming to the UK from outside of the EU face greater restrictions.”

The campaigning may come as a surprise to the millions of white working-class citizens who plan to vote Leave because they want all immigration to be severely curtailed. The government has promised to bring net migration below 100,000 a year; the most recent number was 362,000.

A recent poll by Opinium suggested immigration was the issue most likely to affect how Britons will vote: 49 per cent said it would influence their decision. Among Out supporters it is the primary factor for 72 per cent.

Concerns about immigration from eastern Europe are not confined to white working-class areas.

On Brick Lane, in East London, famous for its curry houses, immigration will be a factor in people’s decision-making. Ahaduz Zaman, working at Zaman Brothers Cash & Carry, has not yet decided how to vote in June. But he said: “If we’re not in the EU they will be able to stop so many Europeans coming over — too many coming here, taking jobs and using public services.”

Paul Karir, manager of Karir & Sons, a clothing shop, complained about East Europeans claiming British benefits. “I think the country is full at the moment,” he said.

Vote Leave argues that second-generation immigrants bear the brunt of new migration because they tend to live in the same areas and compete for the same low-skilled jobs and housing. They will get a vote in the referendum while recent incomers from EU countries will not.

The argument that limiting European immigrants will give Commonwealth citizens easier access has been increasingly put forward by the Out campaign.

Gisela Stuart, the MP who chairs Vote Leave, has questioned why a Bulgarian taxi driver can claim child benefit for his offspring in another country.

“Immigration matters, and it is the first and second-generation immigrants who are concerned about immigration,” she says. “Families of second or third-generation immigrants from the Indian subcontinent find it really difficult: they say, why do we have to jump so many hurdles just to bring in relatives for a wedding?”

Priti Patel, the employment minister, was appointed by Mr Cameron as Britain’s first “UK Indian diaspora champion”. She is using that platform to undermine the Cameron-led Remain campaign as she attacks the government’s “biased” immigration policy.

“Temples and gurdwaras have difficulties bringing priests in. Our communities struggle to get visas for kabbadi players to come and share their phenomenal sporting talents in this country,” she told India’s Economic Times.

Ms Patel warned this week that curry restaurants were being deprived of high-quality chefs because “uncontrolled immigration” from the EU had led to tighter controls on talented migrants from elsewhere

.

Pasha Khandaker, the president of the Bangladesh Caterers Association, said leaving the EU would ease the staff shortage in his industry. He is organising an anti-EU protest outside parliament — although the police will not allow it until July, weeks after the referendum.

But Seema Malhotra, a Labour MP, accused Brexit campaigners of blaming Brussels for decisions made by British ministers.

She said the government could take other measures to deal with the shortage of Indian and Bangladeshi restaurant workers, such as putting them back on the “shortage occupation” list.

Keith Vaz, another Labour MP, accused Ms Patel of “divide and rule politics of the worst kind”.

[yoda]

Here you are

Vote Leave woos British Asians with migration leaflets

Jim Pickard, Chief Political Correspondent

Vote Leave is hoping to secure the backing of British Asians by telling them that if Britain quits the EU, it will mean more immigration from elsewhere in the world.

The official Out campaign is drawing up leaflets aimed at Punjabi, Hindi and Urdu speakers arguing that a British exit from the EU would help to stem the flow of Eastern Europeans into the UK — allowing more incomers from Commonwealth countries to take their place.

Saqib Bhatti, a board member for Vote Leave, said English-language leaflets had been sent out to Muslim voters, while others in different languages were set to follow.

The pamphlets argue that people with EU passports can just “walk in” to Britain.

“South Asian immigrants have ancestors who fought in the world wars, they sacrificed a lot, they speak the language, they have the skills, they are well educated,” said Mr Bhatti. “But they find it hard to come in compared to other individuals from Europe who may not speak the language, understand the culture or have the skills.”

The leaflets also emphasise the increasingly far-right tinge to politics in Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, Germany and Denmark. “We don’t want them influencing our laws and our policies,” said Mr Bhatti.

He also said a leaflet from the rival Conservative In campaign promised to stop non-EU families from coming to Britain.

Vote Leave recently marshalled 80 business and community leaders from Commonwealth backgrounds to write to David Cameron calling for Britain to take back “autonomy in the field of migration”. The letter said: “Whilst EU citizens enjoy freedom of movement and no restrictions on their stay in the UK, those coming to the UK from outside of the EU face greater restrictions.”

The campaigning may come as a surprise to the millions of white working-class citizens who plan to vote Leave because they want all immigration to be severely curtailed. The government has promised to bring net migration below 100,000 a year; the most recent number was 362,000.

A recent poll by Opinium suggested immigration was the issue most likely to affect how Britons will vote: 49 per cent said it would influence their decision. Among Out supporters it is the primary factor for 72 per cent.

Concerns about immigration from eastern Europe are not confined to white working-class areas.

On Brick Lane, in East London, famous for its curry houses, immigration will be a factor in people’s decision-making. Ahaduz Zaman, working at Zaman Brothers Cash & Carry, has not yet decided how to vote in June. But he said: “If we’re not in the EU they will be able to stop so many Europeans coming over — too many coming here, taking jobs and using public services.”

Paul Karir, manager of Karir & Sons, a clothing shop, complained about East Europeans claiming British benefits. “I think the country is full at the moment,” he said.

Vote Leave argues that second-generation immigrants bear the brunt of new migration because they tend to live in the same areas and compete for the same low-skilled jobs and housing. They will get a vote in the referendum while recent incomers from EU countries will not.

The argument that limiting European immigrants will give Commonwealth citizens easier access has been increasingly put forward by the Out campaign.

Gisela Stuart, the MP who chairs Vote Leave, has questioned why a Bulgarian taxi driver can claim child benefit for his offspring in another country.

“Immigration matters, and it is the first and second-generation immigrants who are concerned about immigration,” she says. “Families of second or third-generation immigrants from the Indian subcontinent find it really difficult: they say, why do we have to jump so many hurdles just to bring in relatives for a wedding?”

Priti Patel, the employment minister, was appointed by Mr Cameron as Britain’s first “UK Indian diaspora champion”. She is using that platform to undermine the Cameron-led Remain campaign as she attacks the government’s “biased” immigration policy.

“Temples and gurdwaras have difficulties bringing priests in. Our communities struggle to get visas for kabbadi players to come and share their phenomenal sporting talents in this country,” she told India’s Economic Times.

Ms Patel warned this week that curry restaurants were being deprived of high-quality chefs because “uncontrolled immigration” from the EU had led to tighter controls on talented migrants from elsewhere

.

Pasha Khandaker, the president of the Bangladesh Caterers Association, said leaving the EU would ease the staff shortage in his industry. He is organising an anti-EU protest outside parliament — although the police will not allow it until July, weeks after the referendum.

But Seema Malhotra, a Labour MP, accused Brexit campaigners of blaming Brussels for decisions made by British ministers.

She said the government could take other measures to deal with the shortage of Indian and Bangladeshi restaurant workers, such as putting them back on the “shortage occupation” list.

Keith Vaz, another Labour MP, accused Ms Patel of “divide and rule politics of the worst kind”.

I think that makes a lot of sense Jim, don't you ?

Moving from an uncontrolled 500 million people (soon to be 570 million with Turkey) to a controlled immigration policy, I would go for that every day of the week.

[yoda]

What's your take on this Jim,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-36334488

Don't worry, it is free to read

[jim mk2]

I think that makes a lot of sense Jim, don't you ?

Moving from an uncontrolled 500 million people (soon to be 570 million with Turkey) to a controlled immigration policy, I would go for that every day of the week.

Those figures aren't in the article. And there's no mention of "controlled migration".

You're avoiding the issue.

[yoda]

Those figures aren't in the article. And there's no mention of "controlled migration".

You're avoiding the issue.

Sorry you have me confused, which issue are you referring to ?

[Baz]

What Jim is raising in a way, is one of my concerns. The Brexit campaign is able to spend its money in several different ways (cut the debt, end austerity, fund the nhs etc), without specifying exactly what the government would do. Whereas the current situation is status quo.

I would also agree that some of the pro-stay arguments are daft, but then again it's exactly what Cameron and Osborne have been doing for the past 5 years. Like their constant references to how well the economy is doing, when the national debt, and the richest 1%'s wealth have both doubled, under austerity stripping out public services.

[yoda]

What Jim is raising in a way, is one of my concerns. The Brexit campaign is able to spend its money in several different ways (cut the debt, end austerity, fund the nhs etc), without specifying exactly what the government would do. Whereas the current situation is status quo.

I would also agree that some of the pro-stay arguments are daft, but then again it's exactly what Cameron and Osborne have been doing for the past 5 years. Like their constant references to how well the economy is doing, when the national debt, and the richest 1%'s wealth have both doubled, under austerity stripping out public services.

You know, I am not so sure Cameron wants to stay in.

The economic figures have both pro's and con's for either option.

Coming out means our elected government has control over it, the UK electorate can change the government if they are not happy with the situation, that's a bit difficult with the EU commission.

If this free movement of labour is all it is cracked up to be and does not effect the low wage sector how come the following skilled jobs can't be filled?

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/business/revealed-workers-demand-across-uk/

The EU influx does not seem go be addressing the skilled vacancies.

[K-Hod]

The gist of the story is in my post. As a swivel-eyed Brexiteer I wondered what your thoughts are.

Jim, there have been a few close calls on this thread, but please can you ensure you post without the personal insults? There's really no need.

[Baz]

You know, I am not so sure Cameron wants to stay in.

The economic figures have both pro's and con's for either option.

Coming out means our elected government has control over it, the UK electorate can change the government if they are not happy with the situation, that's a bit difficult with the EU commission.

If this free movement of labour is all it is cracked up to be and does not effect the low wage sector how come the following skilled jobs can't be filled?

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/business/revealed-workers-demand-across-uk/

The EU influx does not seem go be addressing the skilled vacancies.

I dont believe some of the numbers in that article, for example more developers than nurses needed.

As for developers, I used to work in software development, and there was a scarcity of good developers in the uk, plenty available, but not many good ones, so we used to advertise in several places (hence i think the numbers are wrong if its counting the number of adverts). In the end we used a perfectly logical solution, we contracted a company in Romania, with top skilled developers at the same price we paid our uk developers- they where delighted, and so where we. Skype for communication - and very few communication issues.

[yoda]

I dont believe some of the numbers in that article, for example more developers than nurses needed.

As for developers, I used to work in software development, and there was a scarcity of good developers in the uk, plenty available, but not many good ones, so we used to advertise in several places (hence i think the numbers are wrong if its counting the number of adverts). In the end we used a perfectly logical solution, we contracted a company in Romania, with top skilled developers at the same price we paid our uk developers- they where delighted, and so where we. Skype for communication - and very few communication issues.

I think that applies to all the figures we are being supplied with by both sides of the debate.

Which leads me to believe the politicians are going down the same path as normal, think self 1st, country second.

[jim mk2]

Sorry you have me confused, which issue are you referring to ?

The fact that the Vote Leave campaign is actively seeking the support of Asian voters by promising to allow more immigrants from Commonwealth countries in the event of a Brexit ? - as stated twice previously

[Baz]

I think that applies to all the figures we are being supplied with by both sides of the debate.

Which leads me to believe the politicians are going down the same path as normal, think self 1st, country second.

I wouldn't disagree.

Oh for the truth!

[yoda]

The fact that the Vote Leave campaign is actively seeking the support of Asian voters by promising to allow more immigrants from Commonwealth countries in the event of a Brexit ? - as stated twice previously

Yes Jim, I answered with,

I think that makes a lot of sense Jim, don't you ?