[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[jim mk2]

Yes Jim, I answered with,

I think that makes a lot of sense Jim, don't you ?

No because it's irrelevant and doesn't answer the question posed.

What Jim is raising in a way, is one of my concerns. The Brexit campaign is able to spend its money in several different ways (cut the debt, end austerity, fund the nhs etc), without specifying exactly what the government would do. Whereas the current situation is status quo.

I would also agree that some of the pro-stay arguments are daft, but then again it's exactly what Cameron and Osborne have been doing for the past 5 years. Like their constant references to how well the economy is doing, when the national debt, and the richest 1%'s wealth have both doubled, under austerity stripping out public services.

The point is, which yoda refuses to acknowledge because he hasn't read the story, is Vote Leave is advocating increased immigration from India and Pakistan. Now I might be wrong but I'd say that's not what your average Daily Mail reader wants to hear.

[yoda]

No because it's irrelevant and doesn't answer the question posed.

The point is, which yoda refuses to acknowledge because he hasn't read the story, is Vote Leave is advocating increased immigration from India and Pakistan. Now I might be wrong but I'd say that's not what your average Daily Mail reader wants to hear.

Pay attention Jim, I have read the story you cut and pasted and my response was and still is

"I think that makes a lot of sense Jim, don't you ?"

Why don't you answer my question while we are on the topic ?

[jim mk2]

Pay attention Jim, I have read the story you cut and pasted and my response was and still is

"I think that makes a lot of sense Jim, don't you ?"

Why don't you answer my question while we are on the topic ?

The answer's still the same. No because it's irrelevant and doesn't answer the question posed.

[yoda]

The answer's still the same. No because it's irrelevant and doesn't answer the question posed.

Are you saying no the article is irrelevant ? or are you changing the question ?

[Biddy]

The article Jim is trying to beat brexiters with makes 100% sense. For a long time it has been said that due to uncontrolled immigration from the EU the levels of immigration from outside is massively controlled. This means that highly skilled people who we REALLY need in this country can't get in.

Levelling the playing field and therefore, yes, letting in more people from outside the EU is a good thing.

So answer my question for the third time, is Dennis Skinner wrong?

[yoda]

The article Jim is trying to beat brexiters with makes 100% sense. For a long time it has been said that due to uncontrolled immigration from the EU the levels of immigration from outside is massively controlled. This means that highly skilled people who we REALLY need in this country can't get in.

Levelling the playing field and therefore, yes, letting in more people from outside the EU is a good thing.

So it does make a lot of sense as I said to Jim.

[jim mk2]

So you think the question I asked below makes sense ?

So you don't have an opinion on the fact that the Vote Leave campaign is actively seeking the support of Asian voters by promising to allow more immigrants from Commonwealth countries in the event of a Brexit ?

[Mike E]

Jesus wept...

[Baz]

So you think the question I asked below makes sense ?

So you don't have an opinion on the fact that the Vote Leave campaign is actively seeking the support of Asian voters by promising to allow more immigrants from Commonwealth countries in the event of a Brexit ?

The Brexit campaign is all things to all men though, no more immigrants to daily mail readers, more family members to british asians, more money for the nhs to nhs supporters, more skilled workers - whatever you want as long as you vote exit....you want a unicorn? They're only available if we exit,

[jim mk2]

The Brexit campaign is all things to all men though, no more immigrants to daily mail readers, more family members to british asians, more money for the nhs to nhs supporters, more skilled workers - whatever you want as long as you vote exit....you want a unicorn? They're only available if we exit,

The Brexit campaign to a large part of the older, white population (the people more likely to be bothered to vote) is exclusively about immigration - which is why the Vote Leave story is such a nonsense.

[Paul]

The Brexit campaign to a large part of the older, white population (the people more likely to be bothered to vote) is exclusively about immigration - which is why the Vote Leave story is such a nonsense.

From what I gather from the media it's very difficult to argue with this opinion. It's one I've held for several weeks. Sadly I've also reached the conclusion this view, and I want to stress based on media reporting, is not necessarily referring specifically to EU migrants and could be strongly influenced by the culture and ethnicity of potential migrants.

I don't believe leaving the EU will have any significant impact on migration and suspect it could lead to huge difficulties in places like Dover. If cooperation with the French ceased at Calais we could well end up with camps in Dover rather than Calais.

[Paul]

If this free movement of labour is all it is cracked up to be and does not effect the low wage sector how come the following skilled jobs can't be filled?

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/business/revealed-workers-demand-across-uk/

The EU influx does not seem go be addressing the skilled vacancies.

I don't have time to discuss this in detail but I think we both know the illustrated vacancies have little to do free movement of labour. Regardless of the accuracy of the numbers some of these industries have had problems for decades.

Engineering has had skills shortages for 30 years or more. Recruiting women to the industry is a particular issue. Approximately 30% of NHS medical staff are non UK in origin so even with migration there is still an issue. This has much to do with successive government policies stretching back 20 years or more. The same is true of teaching.

I love the idea there is a shortage of recruitment staff to recruit for other industries.

Undoubtedly there are skill shortages but if the experience of my youngest son and his partner is a guide successfully obtaining the role you want as an employee is very challenging. Although settled now both have spent two years chasing positions they feel match their own ambitions. In neither case has this been specifically about money. In my lad's case at 23 with a relevant degree he is only earning NLW. Disgraceful in my view but equally he is settled and happy which I view as just as important as money.

[ABBEY]

The gist of the story is in my post. As a swivel-eyed Brexiteer I wondered what your thoughts are.

classy

[Biddy]

Dennis is back on topic in is book (60% through on a kindle if anyone is interested). It is a section on Maggie Thatcher which is why there are references to her.

"When I hear Tories and the purple-faced of UKIP go on about Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians coming to Britain to work, I think back and remember what Mrs Thatcher did. She signed the 1986 Single European Act to create the free market in people. She was championing the eastwards expansion of the European Union into the former Soviet satellites. She wanted the EU to embrace that part of the world to roll back the Iron Curtain, and stick it to Mikhail Gorbachev and Communists.
The Single Market was designed deliberately to allow employers to transfer cheap labour across national borders. It wasn't principally about letting workers decide where they'd look for jobs. That's a by-product. The Single Market's main aim was to supply cut-price workers to capitalism. A capitalism with an insatiable appetite for the dozen-a-penny workers she created by stripping away employment rights, by shackling trade unions."

[Biddy]

I don't have time to discuss this in detail but I think we both know the illustrated vacancies have little to do free movement of labour. Regardless of the accuracy of the numbers some of these industries have had problems for decades.

Engineering has had skills shortages for 30 years or more. Recruiting women to the industry is a particular issue. Approximately 30% of NHS medical staff are non UK in origin so even with migration there is still an issue. This has much to do with successive government policies stretching back 20 years or more. The same is true of teaching.

I love the idea there is a shortage of recruitment staff to recruit for other industries.

Undoubtedly there are skill shortages but if the experience of my youngest son and his partner is a guide successfully obtaining the role you want as an employee is very challenging. Although settled now both have spent two years chasing positions they feel match their own ambitions. In neither case has this been specifically about money. In my lad's case at 23 with a relevant degree he is only earning NLW. Disgraceful in my view but equally he is settled and happy which I view as just as important as money.

I congratulate your son in finding a career and now a job that he enjoys.

I don't however quite understand why you say "Disgraceful in my view". He is just starting his career and has MANY years ahead of him to learn his trade and climb the ladder. Isn't that where most of us start? As you say, the most important thing is finding the role you enjoy and then reap the rewards from there.

Is that not the problem in our society now, too many people automatically think they are entitled to top, high paying jobs, before learning the trade and doing the graft. I'm not using your son as an example here as from what you say he is happy with his position and good for him. I'm just picking up on the "disgraceful" point of your comment and wonder why it is disgraceful?

[Paul]

You're right Biddy. Poor choice of words but I am his Dad.

He has had a torrid time for two years trying to find a position he enjoys and is comfortable with. Disgraceful is an emotional response. I know from my own experience and my eldest son's expecting "success" if that is defined in monetary terms takes until one's early 30s st least.

[yoda]

You're right Biddy. Poor choice of words but I am his Dad.

He has had a torrid time for two years trying to find a position he enjoys and is comfortable with. Disgraceful is an emotional response. I know from my own experience and my eldest son's expecting "success" if that is defined in monetary terms takes until one's early 30s st least.

That's better Paul.

It would be easier to find jobs with a degree if we learnt from the Germans, especially the way manufacturing is structured.

Degrees are studied at the same time as gaining experience in the industry, much like Jaguar Land Rover are doing now with their Graduate Apprenticeships.

There has been to much emphasis on getting a degree without relevant experience in this country and this in part has led to the skills shortage.

I used to see it all the time in manufacturing, graduates turning up for work with a degree in their hands and clueless about the job in hand.

[Paul]

My lad though has been employed since leaving uni. His difficulty has been gaining what he views as the right job for him.

[Al]

It's extensive research conducted by independent organisations. That's not opinions.

I've seen your choice of "independent" before often enough to ignore them.

[Al]

I think the key words are historically and relatively. I've been in agriculture (limited experience) and horticulture (40+ years) and have seen many changes. If we accept employees fall in to two broad bands, staff and management, I can state without hesitation no one enters horticulture for the money. Having said that skilled, motivated people can and do earn very good salaries but probably could earn at least 25% more in other industries. There is a strong element of enjoyment, lifestyle and the ambience of the industry which many, including myself, see as a significant benefit.

In retail horticulture, garden centres, management will be paid at or near senior retail levels.

Staff, labour, are paid at least the National Living Wage. Historically wages were governed by the Agricultural Wages Board, whether too high or low is debatable the point being there is and has been a minimum legal standard for all.

When I began working at 18, I didn't take up secondary education till later, the workforce would be 100% British. Today in our company the permanent staff count is 11, 8 have at least 20 years service. The three most recently joined are young Poles who originally arrived as seasonal labour, they are now key staff members and team leaders. Today we have an additional 32 seasonal workers on site, all Polish, many from the same extended families who come here every year.

I've no doubt some will not believe me but the reason we employ non British labour is we simply cannot find the people. We pay the NLW to seasonal labour as required by law. Without this seasonal labour we would close.

It is an absolute fact the entire UK agricultural and horticultural industries are totally reliant on foreign seasonal labour. I'm old enough to remember the groups of travelling British workers who moved from one job or crop to another throughout the year. Those people simply do not exist today. I'm not talking of gang masters etc. just loosely organised labour that knew where and when to turn up for a few weeks work. Like east Londoners who in post war years would move to Kent for harvest and treat it as a holiday.

Now it can be argued if the industry paid more we would attract more people. Possibly but experience tells me this is not true and the type of work is what deters people. In my specific sector labour is 35/40% of production cost. Increased wages would have a significant impact on cost price.

If we leave the EU this labour will still be required and the industry will successfully lobby government for special consideration to employ foreign seasonal labour. It's happened before and will happen again. BREXIT will have an impact on us but it will not reduce foreign labour in the industry.

We've all read the daft stories of the EU cucumber regulation or similar. Yes there is some nonsense BUT take it from me overall British horticulture benefits hugely from EU membership, no subsidies I should add, and to step back to years gone by would be a disaster.

One small example. Many ornamental plants produced in the EU require a health passport, freedom from disease etc. This is now pan European and very effective. 40 years ago every import of the same product required a licence, often a quarantine period and physical inspection by plant health officials in the country of origin prior to export followed by the same inspection on arrival in the UK by MAFF health inspectors.

All this was swept away within in the EU - red tape works both ways but you only ever read about the daft stuff.

It's the highlighted bit that is part of my argument for denying immigrant labour. OK so once a year we would have to pay a little more for bedding plants and a bit more for vegetables but let's face it they are pretty cheap aren't they? Is it too much to ask to pay a bit more so that the workers can have a proper wage and more secure employment?

[Al]

Exactly.

He was saying he wants to employ British people BUT the fact foreign workers will take lower wages means he simply CANNOT recruit British workers.

This is utter nonsense. The only reason - and one that is perfectly legitimate - is that he wants to maximise profit.

If he wanted to attract British workers who might demand say £12 ph rather than £9 ph, all he has to do is raise the wages. No one, absolutely noone, EXCEPT HIMSELF is leading to the lower wage.

Lose the supply of £9ph labour and he has 3 choices...

Cut profit

Increase price to cover profit

Stop trading

Which will he do?

You are assuming that there is already a business. The point I am trying to make is that he shouldn't be in business in the first place if he doesn't pay a proper wage and without foreign labour he would have to pay Brits a decent wage or the business would not get off the ground. It's all theory but then so is your scenario. OK prices would be higher but as wages would also be higher that evens itself out. We are talking small businesses here so the international effect on prices is irrelevant.

[Al]

Here you are

Vote Leave woos British Asians with migration leaflets

Jim Pickard, Chief Political Correspondent

Vote Leave is hoping to secure the backing of British Asians by telling them that if Britain quits the EU, it will mean more immigration from elsewhere in the world.

The official Out campaign is drawing up leaflets aimed at Punjabi, Hindi and Urdu speakers arguing that a British exit from the EU would help to stem the flow of Eastern Europeans into the UK — allowing more incomers from Commonwealth countries to take their place.

Saqib Bhatti, a board member for Vote Leave, said English-language leaflets had been sent out to Muslim voters, while others in different languages were set to follow.

The pamphlets argue that people with EU passports can just “walk in” to Britain.

“South Asian immigrants have ancestors who fought in the world wars, they sacrificed a lot, they speak the language, they have the skills, they are well educated,” said Mr Bhatti. “But they find it hard to come in compared to other individuals from Europe who may not speak the language, understand the culture or have the skills.”

The leaflets also emphasise the increasingly far-right tinge to politics in Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, Germany and Denmark. “We don’t want them influencing our laws and our policies,” said Mr Bhatti.

He also said a leaflet from the rival Conservative In campaign promised to stop non-EU families from coming to Britain.

Vote Leave recently marshalled 80 business and community leaders from Commonwealth backgrounds to write to David Cameron calling for Britain to take back “autonomy in the field of migration”. The letter said: “Whilst EU citizens enjoy freedom of movement and no restrictions on their stay in the UK, those coming to the UK from outside of the EU face greater restrictions.”

The campaigning may come as a surprise to the millions of white working-class citizens who plan to vote Leave because they want all immigration to be severely curtailed. The government has promised to bring net migration below 100,000 a year; the most recent number was 362,000.

A recent poll by Opinium suggested immigration was the issue most likely to affect how Britons will vote: 49 per cent said it would influence their decision. Among Out supporters it is the primary factor for 72 per cent.

Concerns about immigration from eastern Europe are not confined to white working-class areas.

On Brick Lane, in East London, famous for its curry houses, immigration will be a factor in people’s decision-making. Ahaduz Zaman, working at Zaman Brothers Cash & Carry, has not yet decided how to vote in June. But he said: “If we’re not in the EU they will be able to stop so many Europeans coming over — too many coming here, taking jobs and using public services.”

Paul Karir, manager of Karir & Sons, a clothing shop, complained about East Europeans claiming British benefits. “I think the country is full at the moment,” he said.

Vote Leave argues that second-generation immigrants bear the brunt of new migration because they tend to live in the same areas and compete for the same low-skilled jobs and housing. They will get a vote in the referendum while recent incomers from EU countries will not.

The argument that limiting European immigrants will give Commonwealth citizens easier access has been increasingly put forward by the Out campaign.

Gisela Stuart, the MP who chairs Vote Leave, has questioned why a Bulgarian taxi driver can claim child benefit for his offspring in another country.

“Immigration matters, and it is the first and second-generation immigrants who are concerned about immigration,” she says. “Families of second or third-generation immigrants from the Indian subcontinent find it really difficult: they say, why do we have to jump so many hurdles just to bring in relatives for a wedding?”

Priti Patel, the employment minister, was appointed by Mr Cameron as Britain’s first “UK Indian diaspora champion”. She is using that platform to undermine the Cameron-led Remain campaign as she attacks the government’s “biased” immigration policy.

“Temples and gurdwaras have difficulties bringing priests in. Our communities struggle to get visas for kabbadi players to come and share their phenomenal sporting talents in this country,” she told India’s Economic Times.

Ms Patel warned this week that curry restaurants were being deprived of high-quality chefs because “uncontrolled immigration” from the EU had led to tighter controls on talented migrants from elsewhere

.

Pasha Khandaker, the president of the Bangladesh Caterers Association, said leaving the EU would ease the staff shortage in his industry. He is organising an anti-EU protest outside parliament — although the police will not allow it until July, weeks after the referendum.

But Seema Malhotra, a Labour MP, accused Brexit campaigners of blaming Brussels for decisions made by British ministers.

She said the government could take other measures to deal with the shortage of Indian and Bangladeshi restaurant workers, such as putting them back on the “shortage occupation” list.

Keith Vaz, another Labour MP, accused Ms Patel of “divide and rule politics of the worst kind”.

Once out of the EU we have control of immigration from everywhere.

[Al]

The Brexit campaign to a large part of the older, white population (the people more likely to be bothered to vote) is exclusively about immigration - which is why the Vote Leave story is such a nonsense.

I'm one of the older white population and yes immigration is important but MORE important is taking our own control of our laws and the ability to deport people who preach terrorism and otherwise break the laws of the country that has allowed them in.

[Al]

My lad though has been employed since leaving uni. His difficulty has been gaining what he views as the right job for him.

So has mine and he had to start at the bottom but the cream rises to the top (helped by the degree) and he is now in charge of the place that he works and it is now part of a multi national company recently taken over by a large American company. It's taken 16 years but now he has seen the benefit of the shares that he had the good sense to keep in the company (share option scheme). I hope your lad has similar success Paul. It sounds as though he deserves it.

[yoda]

I'm one of the older white population and yes immigration is important but MORE important is taking our own control of our laws and the ability to deport people who preach terrorism and otherwise break the laws of the country that has allowed them in.

Jim has tunnel vision when it comes to immigration,

He puts this in his signature "The greatest country on earth" and then calls anyone who shows any signs of nationalism a racist