[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[yoda]

Powerful speech from Nigel Farage.

Are we coming out of Europe because we are financially weaker than the Germans ?

No, because we will never get in front off them in the EU.

Any way don't change tack when you have a question to answer.

How would the UK government control immigration JAL

[JAL]

How would the UK government control immigration JAL

By knowing the numbers and skills levels required in Britain. Once you've hit that target everyone else is simply turned around.

How do we expect to get in front of the Germans if they are more industrious than us ?

[yoda]

By knowing the numbers and skills levels required in Britain. Once you've hit that target everyone else is simply turned around.

The EU has freedom of movement, that won't work,

want to try again ?

[Al]

The EU has freedom of movement, that won't work,

want to try again ?

JAL is right but we need to leave the EU to facilitate it.

[yoda]

By knowing the numbers and skills levels required in Britain. Once you've hit that target everyone else is simply turned around.

How do we expect to get in front of the Germans if they are more industrious than us ?

Who says they are?

It was never my experience of them when visiting the company plant in Heidelberg.

[JAL]

Who says they are?

It was never my experience of them when visiting the company plant in Heidelberg.

Who's plant is running today generating money yours or the Heidelberg one.

[yoda]

Who's plant is running today generating money yours or the Heidelberg one.

Neither, all production moved to China, India and Brazil,

why ?

[JAL]

Who says they are?

Come on yoda there seem to have been very very little governance on immigration and now those same employed people employed to govern mouth off and blame Brussels.

Shouldnt we be looking at our own first before we start to criticise others. Afterall who are they going to a portion blame too once this is concluded and its still a mess.

Neither, all production moved to China and Brazil,

why ?

Just Intersted to know. Who are the main shareholders then.

[yoda]

Come on yoda there seem to have been very very little governance on immigration and now those same employed people employed to govern mouth off and blame Brussels.

Shouldnt we be looking at our own first before we start to criticise others. Afterall who are they going to a portion blame too once this is concluded and its still a mess.

Just Intersted to know. Who are the main shareholders then.

How JAL, freedom of movement is sacrosanct for EU counties. If you look at immigration from non EU countries to the UK you will a very different picture, i.e. very small numbers.

Main shareholders in what ?

[JAL]

What happens to our pensions if we stay in or opt out ?

Will there be any change.

[yoda]

What happens to our pensions if we stay in or opt out ?

Will there be any change.

I doubt it very much, the city is the daddy of finance centres,

We are not leaving the Euro

[JAL]

I doubt it very much, the city is the daddy of finance centres

For how long ?

[jim mk2]

The point was/is will any future UK government be able to govern the country effectively if we stay in the EU, tampons being the thin end of the wedge

The country is being governed effectively (albeit badly by this administration) now and has been governed effectively for the past 40 years. Think of all the big decisions that we as a country have had to make and not one of them has involved the EU.

I doubt it very much, the city is the daddy of finance centres,

We are not leaving the Euro

In case you hadn't noticed we're not in the eurozone. You can thank Gordon Brown for that one.

[yoda]

The country is being governed effectively (albeit badly by this administration) now and has been governed effectively for the past 40 years. Think of all the big decisions that we as a country have had to make and not one of them has involved the EU.

In case you hadn't noticed we're not in the eurozone. You can thank Gordon Brown for that one.

Obviously, that's why we are not leaving it, so all the scare stories about the city are null and void as they operate outside the Eurozone, stop being pedantic Jim.

The fact that we are not in the Eurozone will leave us on the outside looking in at all the major decision that the EU will take going forward if we stay in.

Yes you can thank Gordon Brown for us not being in, the predicted disaster did not happen by not joining.

Can't thank him for what he has done to pension though can we.

The reality is hitting home in Germany though about what it means for their economy if we leave, Merkel should have given Cameron what he wanted instead of nothing.

Can't see her lasting much longer to be honest, German industry will kick her out.

I see badly is the new effective, you couldn't make it up, talk about trying to twist the agenda

[Baz]

333,000 net immigration last year. It has to be STOPPED now.

We need immigration of working age people though, otherwise with an ageing population, people living longer, a shrinking average family size, and more and more people having families later in life, we will have a massive economic disaster. At present pensioners are being sheltered from austerity measures, because they are key Tory voters, that simply cannot continue if there is no immigration.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

We need immigration of working age people though, otherwise with an ageing population, people living longer, a shrinking average family size, and more and more people having families later in life, we will have a massive economic disaster. At present pensioners are being sheltered from austerity measures, because they are key Tory voters, that simply cannot continue if there is no immigration.

Forget an economic disaster, keep cramming more and more people into this, or indeed any, country and there will be total societal and environmental disaster. Increasing population is responsible for unaffordable housing, the sewers of London flooding into the Thames, the need to frack to fund increasing energy consumption, the kamikaze widespread building on floodplains, deforestation, hundreds of native UK species extinction, transport gridlock on motorways and trains, primary schools bursting at the seems, the NHS becoming swamped, the list goes on and on and on.

Read any UK population future forecast and the figures are extremely alarming. Record net immigration virtually year on year is the tip of the iceberg. The real growth is coming and will increasingly come from the large families of first/second/third generation immigrants.

We either sacrifice ours (or at the very least our kids) standard of living by squashing tens of millions more sardines into this already full tin, or we wake up to reality and regain control of our borders. So people will have to start saving throughout their working life to pay for their own pension because of an ageing population, big deal, anyone with half a brain and any sense of personal responsibility should be doing that already. At least that's within peoples hands. Its hardly within their own hands if they are forced to live in squalor, surrounded on all sides by a teeming mass of people. We're not at that state yet and won't be for a few decades, but a quick look at living conditions in India, China, Bangladesh shows what it could eventually be like here.

[Baz]

Forget an economic disaster, keep cramming more and more people into this, or indeed any, country and there will be total societal and environmental disaster. Increasing population is responsible for unaffordable housing, the sewers of London flooding into the Thames, the need to frack to fund increasing energy consumption, the kamikaze widespread building on floodplains, deforestation, hundreds of native UK species extinction, transport gridlock on motorways and trains, primary schools bursting at the seems, the NHS becoming swamped, the list goes on and on and on.

Read any UK population future forecast and the figures are extremely alarming. Record net immigration virtually year on year is the tip of the iceberg. The real growth is coming and will increasingly come from the large families of first/second/third generation immigrants.

We either sacrifice ours (or at the very least our kids) standard of living by squashing tens of millions more sardines into this already full tin, or we wake up to reality and regain control of our borders. So people will have to start saving throughout their working life to pay for their own pension because of an ageing population, big deal, anyone with half a brain and any sense of personal responsibility should be doing that already. At least that's within peoples hands. Its hardly within their own hands if they are forced to live in squalor, surrounded on all sides by a teeming mass of people. We're not at that state yet and won't be for a few decades, but a quick look at living conditions in India, China, Bangladesh shows what it could eventually be like here.

What percentage of land in the UK is built on?

[jim mk2]

What percentage of land in the UK is built on?

In England it is less than 5% I believe, so including Wales and Scotland the figure is likely to be even smaller.

But then according to hysterical voices on here, we are going to be living like "sardines", living in "squalor" and surrounded on all sides by "teeming masses of people".

:lol:

[jim mk2]

Obviously, that's why we are not leaving it, so all the scare stories about the city are null and void as they operate outside the Eurozone, stop being pedantic Jim.

The fact that we are not in the Eurozone will leave us on the outside looking in at all the major decision that the EU will take going forward if we stay in.

Yes you can thank Gordon Brown for us not being in, the predicted disaster did not happen by not joining.

Can't thank him for what he has done to pension though can we.

The reality is hitting home in Germany though about what it means for their economy if we leave, Merkel should have given Cameron what he wanted instead of nothing.

Can't see her lasting much longer to be honest, German industry will kick her out.

I see badly is the new effective, you couldn't make it up, talk about trying to twist the agenda

Trying to make sense of all that jumbled up nonsense, are you saying we should join the eurozone?

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

What percentage of land in the UK is built on?

What percentage is needed for farmland to produce food for this ballooning population? What is needed for landfill, quarries, windfarms, electricity pylons, sewage storage? What do we need to maintain any halfway healthy eco-system in terms of forests, flood plains etc? What about transport, the 245,000 miles of roads in Britain, the 13,000 miles of railway lines, airports and the areas around them that are uninhabitable due to noise and air pollution? What about recreation, national parks, normal parks, countryside?

There might be some nightmarish solutions out there as to how we can all exist comfortable in one big future sprawling metropolis, maybe stay in our box-like houses plugged into VR whilst our food and water is endlessly recycled as space-efficiently as possible.

Personally I think the glaringly evident problems throughout society that are already caused by overpopulation indicates we have no decent solutions to it on the horizon. If people keep streaming over the border and then having 5+ kids, all that will happen is traffic will get worse, the NHS will buckle, class sizes will increase, pollution will increase, green spaces will shrink, and we'll need more and more food and more and more energy, so increased farm area and increased industrial area for activities such as fracking will be needed.

[Baz]

What percentage is needed for farmland to produce food for this ballooning population? What is needed for landfill, quarries, windfarms, electricity pylons, sewage storage? What do we need to maintain any halfway healthy eco-system in terms of forests, flood plains etc? What about transport, the 245,000 miles of roads in Britain, the 13,000 miles of railway lines, airports and the areas around them that are uninhabitable due to noise and air pollution? What about recreation, national parks, normal parks, countryside?

There might be some nightmarish solutions out there as to how we can all exist comfortable in one big future sprawling metropolis, maybe stay in our box-like houses plugged into VR whilst our food and water is endlessly recycled as space-efficiently as possible.

Personally I think the glaringly evident problems throughout society that are already caused by overpopulation indicates we have no decent solutions to it on the horizon. If people keep streaming over the border and then having 5+ kids, all that will happen is traffic will get worse, the NHS will buckle, class sizes will increase, pollution will increase, green spaces will shrink, and we'll need more and more food and more and more energy, so increased farm area and increased industrial area for activities such as fracking will be needed.

We definitely need to improve the infrastructure of the country, no doubt about that. One of the Torys solution is a massively expensive HS2 which is great for commuters to London, but not useful at all for anyone else. It requires massive investment, but that's something they cannot do under their austerity plan - and at probably at a time it has been the best conditions to ensure best value.

If we stopped immigration dead now, or limited it to tens of thousands a year, then these 'massive' immigration families wouldn't help us. We have a bulge in population in the 55-70 year age group, once they all hit pensionable age we will simply not be able to afford to keep them under current living conditions, and will not have enough people to fill the jobs available.

Theres a better argument for managed immigration, but we need working age people, and their future generations.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

We definitely need to improve the infrastructure of the country, no doubt about that. One of the Torys solution is a massively expensive HS2 which is great for commuters to London, but not useful at all for anyone else. It requires massive investment, but that's something they cannot do under their austerity plan - and at probably at a time it has been the best conditions to ensure best value.

If we stopped immigration dead now, or limited it to tens of thousands a year, then these 'massive' immigration families wouldn't help us. We have a bulge in population in the 55-70 year age group, once they all hit pensionable age we will simply not be able to afford to keep them under current living conditions, and will not have enough people to fill the jobs available.

Theres a better argument for managed immigration, but we need working age people, and their future generations.

How do we do that though when we still have a budget deficit? The government is already spending about £20 billion more than is contributed in tax, we can't afford large-scale infrastructure improvements. The only way to cope with the rapidly increasing population is to ignore the deficit, spend billions on infrastructure and throw a load more logs onto the huge debt bonfire. If you're concerned about avoiding future economic disasters then I don't see how you can consider that a viable option.

Like I said, people should pay for their own pensions. We can probably afford another 10 years of the government paying for them and then it has to stop, so everyone say 45-55 should be auto-enrolled at a high percentage of their wage and told they'll simply have to work a bit longer. Anyone younger than that who isn't in one need their heads seeing to, they need to get in one now or its their own daft fault.

Otherwise its a case of increase the population to fund pensioners, then 25 years later when the larger generation are pensioners increase the population to pay for them, then when the even larger generation are pensioners increase the population again to pay for them, then when....

I'm sorry but talk about woolly thinking, its logically barmy. A solution to the pensions crisis that requires runaway population growth is about as productive as a solution to a fridge being broken is to keep filling it with ice cubes. Save the ice cubes, avoid ruining the kitchen floor and come up with a better way of fixing the fridge.

I'd been wondering why on earth so many people didn't seem to give a damn about the immigration, had always assumed it was basically virtue signalling. "Come live with us (but, a la Geldof, don't live with me)! Aren't I a wonderful person!". If this is why, to stop people having to be arsed putting money into their own pension, then bloody hell.

[dave birch]

How do we do that though when we still have a budget deficit? The government is already spending about £20 billion more than is contributed in tax, we can't afford large-scale infrastructure improvements. The only way to cope with the rapidly increasing population is to ignore the deficit, spend billions on infrastructure and throw a load more logs onto the huge debt bonfire. If you're concerned about avoiding future economic disasters then I don't see how you can consider that a viable option.

Like I said, people should pay for their own pensions. We can probably afford another 10 years of the government paying for them and then it has to stop, so everyone say 45-55 should be auto-enrolled at a high percentage of their wage and told they'll simply have to work a bit longer. Anyone younger than that who isn't in one need their heads seeing to, they need to get in one now or its their own daft fault.

Otherwise its a case of increase the population to fund pensioners, then 25 years later when the larger generation are pensioners increase the population to pay for them, then when the even larger generation are pensioners increase the population again to pay for them, then when....

I'm sorry but talk about woolly thinking, its logically barmy. A solution to the pensions crisis that requires runaway population growth is about as productive as a solution to a fridge being broken is to keep filling it with ice cubes. Save the ice cubes, avoid ruining the kitchen floor and come up with a better way of fixing the fridge.

I'd been wondering why on earth so many people didn't seem to give a damn about the immigration, had always assumed it was basically virtue signalling. "Come live with us (but, a la Geldof, don't live with me)! Aren't I a wonderful person!". If this is why, to stop people having to be arsed putting money into their own pension, then bloody hell.

SKH, check out the Australian way of doing this:

Immigration- 1. target those whose skills you need by a points system. If you can't meet the target, then you don't get in.

2. Target those "wealthy economic immigrants" by allowing those that can stump up (say) a minimum of 10- 20 mill and look after themselves financially after they arrive.

I realise that the EU would be up in arms at the thought of not having free movement within the whole of the EU, but that is something for the current debate in the UK to sort out.

Pensions- 1. Some 15 or so years back, the then PM Paul Keating saw this exact problem and set up a scheme whereby employees sacrificed wage increase for a %age (then 5% I think) to be paid into a superannuation account of each employee (paid for by the employer). This was to rise gradually by 1 or so % over the years to 15%. It was thought by the time it worked its way through the system, then those who had had a full working life would not need a government pension.

Unfortunately it's become a bit of a political football with successive governments, but still does exist though the % has still not risen to 15% (currently it's 9.5%). It's a scheme that is not popular with the mainstream finance industry as it bypasses them entirely. (Google Industry funds in Australia).

Not perfect by any means, but well on the way to solving two problems.

[Paul]

The pensions question is huge and I count myself lucky to be a part of the golden generation. I can't see my children benefitting from a state pension - it's not economically sustainable - the massive issue is persuading people to save.

Depending on where when one gets data the average UK pension pot is between £30000 and £80000. Currently one needs +/- £150,000 after taking the lump sum to generate the £8000 the state pension gives us.

I'm retiring soon and have spent months looking at the financial realities for our household. This plus talking to many friends suggests a figure of £300000 is needed to comfortably fund a modest retirement.

I've read the average 35 year old will need a pot of £650000 on which to retire!! I don't know the % of lifetime income this represents but having watched the value of my fund go up and down like a yo yo it's hard to imagine many achieving this.

A ticking bomb if ever there was one.

[joey_big_nose]

The pensions question is huge and I count myself lucky to be a part of the golden generation. I can't see my children benefitting from a state pension - it's not economically sustainable - the massive issue is persuading people to save.

Depending on where when one gets data the average UK pension pot is between £30000 and £80000. Currently one needs +/- £150,000 after taking the lump sum to generate the £8000 the state pension gives us.

I'm retiring soon and have spent months looking at the financial realities for our household. This plus talking to many friends suggests a figure of £300000 is needed to comfortably fund a modest retirement.

I've read the average 35 year old will need a pot of £650000 on which to retire!! I don't know the % of lifetime income this represents but having watched the value of my fund go up and down like a yo yo it's hard to imagine many achieving this.

A ticking bomb if ever there was one.

This touches on what I think will be the defining issue of our time. Despite the financial crash the economy is still year on year more productive. Technology, improved management, freer markets etc are all driving productivity. The issue is that a very small capital class (and to a much lesser extent a modest managerial class) not only capture the whole of this added value in their paychecks/financial assets like shares, but also can erode wages for the less skilled workers. "Trickle down" has never really worked, and is now very efficiently squeezed by the system. Unless you are very skilled and work in a boom sector (like tech or football) youre fooked. Technology is going to renove thousands of jobs from the economy year on year, and while new jobs are created they tend to be very low paying zero hours affairs. Working labour is becoming nore and more of a commodity.

The only workable solutions I have seen are basic income and raising minimum wages. Taxes on the wealthy are going to have to go up significantly, and somehow wealth generated by the great engines of productivity need to support raised living standards for the general population, including providing pensions.

ps. For Al - this is clearly all my speculation!