[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[Baz]

How do we do that though when we still have a budget deficit? The government is already spending about £20 billion more than is contributed in tax, we can't afford large-scale infrastructure improvements. The only way to cope with the rapidly increasing population is to ignore the deficit, spend billions on infrastructure and throw a load more logs onto the huge debt bonfire. If you're concerned about avoiding future economic disasters then I don't see how you can consider that a viable option.

Like I said, people should pay for their own pensions. We can probably afford another 10 years of the government paying for them and then it has to stop, so everyone say 45-55 should be auto-enrolled at a high percentage of their wage and told they'll simply have to work a bit longer. Anyone younger than that who isn't in one need their heads seeing to, they need to get in one now or its their own daft fault.

Otherwise its a case of increase the population to fund pensioners, then 25 years later when the larger generation are pensioners increase the population to pay for them, then when the even larger generation are pensioners increase the population again to pay for them, then when....

I'm sorry but talk about woolly thinking, its logically barmy. A solution to the pensions crisis that requires runaway population growth is about as productive as a solution to a fridge being broken is to keep filling it with ice cubes. Save the ice cubes, avoid ruining the kitchen floor and come up with a better way of fixing the fridge.

I'd been wondering why on earth so many people didn't seem to give a damn about the immigration, had always assumed it was basically virtue signalling. "Come live with us (but, a la Geldof, don't live with me)! Aren't I a wonderful person!". If this is why, to stop people having to be arsed putting money into their own pension, then bloody hell.

Its not an illogical thought to use public funds for major projects, that could help stimulate the economy. Its how America got out of the Great Depression. If you get the economy as a whole expanding, its much easier to have the funds to pay the debt, this isnt like a household budget.

We have the mandatory auto-enrollment pension scheme now, however its at such a low level the chances are that it will not come close to covering what is needed when people reach retirement age. However its not only pensions, its healthcare costs, social care funds etc. Im not saying immigration is wonderful because its the only way for me to get a pension, im saying it is the reality of the economic policy of this country for the past few decades. Instead of making the current golden generation save, or setting aside money for the inevitable situation, successive governments spent the money this generation earned for the country. Imagine if 10% of the north sea oil revenues had been set aside in a fund like Norway did, we would be in a much better financial position now. Instead the money was spent on giving tax breaks to key voting groups, to keep politicians in power.

[yoda]

Trying to make sense of all that jumbled up nonsense, are you saying we should join the eurozone?

Have you forgot the last time we tried that ?

Be honest now, can you not see it is the money men who want us to stay in the EU for their benifit not the man/woman in the street.

If you put your politics to one side it might help.

[Al]

We need immigration of working age people though, otherwise with an ageing population, people living longer, a shrinking average family size, and more and more people having families later in life, we will have a massive economic disaster. At present pensioners are being sheltered from austerity measures, because they are key Tory voters, that simply cannot continue if there is no immigration.

Rubbish. There are more than enough children being born in Britain. An expanding population is one of the big problems in the UK at the moment. You are making it up Baz.

[Al]

What percentage of land in the UK is built on?

What's that got to do with it? Don't you want farms and countryside? I suggest you try living in Hong Kong because that's what you and Jim appear to want here.

[Al]

The pensions question is huge and I count myself lucky to be a part of the golden generation. I can't see my children benefitting from a state pension - it's not economically sustainable - the massive issue is persuading people to save.

Depending on where when one gets data the average UK pension pot is between £30000 and £80000. Currently one needs +/- £150,000 after taking the lump sum to generate the £8000 the state pension gives us.

I'm retiring soon and have spent months looking at the financial realities for our household. This plus talking to many friends suggests a figure of £300000 is needed to comfortably fund a modest retirement.

I've read the average 35 year old will need a pot of £650000 on which to retire!! I don't know the % of lifetime income this represents but having watched the value of my fund go up and down like a yo yo it's hard to imagine many achieving this.

A ticking bomb if ever there was one.

I believe there will be a State Pension for as long as the present working age population are alive. It may be diluted by inflation to some extent but inflation is currently running at a very low rate. It would be political suicide to cancel the State Pension for the people who have contributed all their lives to the last generation's pensions. It would never be tolerated.

[RibbleValleyRover]

Anyone else getting sick of the EU referendum? It's all we hear these days on television and in the media, don't get me wrong it's an important decision but it's become nauseatingly boring.

Can't wait until I get my postal ballot and be done with it.

[Al]

ps. For Al - this is clearly all my speculation!

Naturally!

[yoda]

Well well, been saying and posting this for months now

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36396066

[joey_big_nose]

How do we do that though when we still have a budget deficit? The government is already spending about £20 billion more than is contributed in tax, we can't afford large-scale infrastructure improvements. The only way to cope with the rapidly increasing population is to ignore the deficit, spend billions on infrastructure and throw a load more logs onto the huge debt bonfire. If you're concerned about avoiding future economic disasters then I don't see how you can consider that a viable option.

Like I said, people should pay for their own pensions. We can probably afford another 10 years of the government paying for them and then it has to stop, so everyone say 45-55 should be auto-enrolled at a high percentage of their wage and told they'll simply have to work a bit longer. Anyone younger than that who isn't in one need their heads seeing to, they need to get in one now or its their own daft fault.

Otherwise its a case of increase the population to fund pensioners, then 25 years later when the larger generation are pensioners increase the population to pay for them, then when the even larger generation are pensioners increase the population again to pay for them, then when....

I'm sorry but talk about woolly thinking, its logically barmy. A solution to the pensions crisis that requires runaway population growth is about as productive as a solution to a fridge being broken is to keep filling it with ice cubes. Save the ice cubes, avoid ruining the kitchen floor and come up with a better way of fixing the fridge.

I'd been wondering why on earth so many people didn't seem to give a damn about the immigration, had always assumed it was basically virtue signalling. "Come live with us (but, a la Geldof, don't live with me)! Aren't I a wonderful person!". If this is why, to stop people having to be arsed putting money into their own pension, then bloody hell.

Good post. Four points though

1) While you cannot grow the population forever, cutting immigration quickly will hugely exacerbate the pension crisis as we need the taxes from a growing population to give us time to fundamentally re-organise the economy.

2) I think a lot of people are not arsed by immigration because they either like immigrants (like me) as I much prefer a diverse over a homogeneous society, or simply don't care one way or the other. I doubt pension considerations are really a factor in people's opinions (even if they should be). If they were pensions would have cropped up much more as part of the EU debate.

3) The solution you propose which is entirely logical and practical (vastly increase pension contributions, increase retirement age) has the one serious deficit in that it demands radically lowering poor and middle incomes standard of living. I don't think it will be accepted in anything apart from in small manageable doses, not the big hits you propose. It's an identical argument to asking people to fund their own healthcare or education.

4) The only real way out of the mess are to i) be more efficient in provision of benefits and services (ie. technology and improved management) and ii) increase the government's resources to support the benefits and services. That has to happen. There isn't an alternative in my mind. People are not going to step back in time to where these services were not provided for free or near free.

[Paul]

I believe there will be a State Pension for as long as the present working age population are alive. It may be diluted by inflation to some extent but inflation is currently running at a very low rate. It would be political suicide to cancel the State Pension for the people who have contributed all their lives to the last generation's pensions. It would never be tolerated.

By talking about my children's generation I am looking 40/45 years ahead. They are the current working population and won't qualify for state pension till 70.

Auto enrolment is the start of the abolition or signicant reduction in the state pension. It may be dressed up as something else but the reality is different. Aside from this you will know as well as I without an additional pension of some sort £8000 pa - £153/week - isn't enough to provide in retirement. Consequently auto enrolment to encourage saving and pave the way for changes to state pension is essential.

Add to this the very real issue of the changing housing market - fewer owners, more renters - and the issue of financing retirement will continue to increase. My kids both pay £600/month in rent. The current state pension would leave them with £12/month to live on!!! Young people need to be investing at least 15% of income to prepare for old age.

[yoda]

By talking about my children's generation I am looking 40/45 years ahead. They are the current working population and won't qualify for state pension till 70.

Auto enrolment is the start of the abolition or signicant reduction in the state pension. It may be dressed up as something else but the reality is different. Aside from this you will know as well as I without an additional pension of some sort £8000 pa - £153/week - isn't enough to provide in retirement. Consequently auto enrolment to encourage saving and pave the way for changes to state pension is essential.

Add to this the very real issue of the changing housing market - fewer owners, more renters - and the issue of financing retirement will continue to increase. My kids both pay £600/month in rent. The current state pension would leave them with £12/month to live on!!! Young people need to be investing at least 15% of income to prepare for old age.

That situation is the case in many developed countries.

We have one of the worst saving ratios in the world, maybe brought about in general by the state providing for people if they do not have enough to live on in retirement.

[jim mk2]

Have you forgot the last time we tried that ?

Be honest now, can you not see it is the money men who want us to stay in the EU for their benifit not the man/woman in the street.

If you put your politics to one side it might help.

When have we tried to enter the euro ? I think you're getting confused with the ERM.

Brexit would certainly harm the City of London and the financial services industry - which is one factor in its favour, as any damage to London would benefit the rest of the country.

We have one of the worst saving ratios in the world, maybe brought about in general by the state providing for people if they do not have enough to live on in retirement.

People don't have a choice over whether they save or not. They don't save because they can't afford to; every penny is spent on outgoings. High prices and associated mortgage costs are to blame. The state is certainly to blame for contributing to that by not building enough houses.

[yoda]

When have we tried to enter the euro ? I think you're getting confused with the ERM.

Brexit would certainly harm the City of London and the financial services industry - which is one factor in its favour, as any damage to London would benefit the rest of the country.

People don't have a choice over whether they save or not. They don't save because they can't afford to; every penny is spent on outgoings. High prices and associated mortgage costs are to blame. The state is certainly to blame for contributing to that by not building enough houses.

ERM was the pre curser to joining the Euro and you know it.

One example is rural China, historically very poor, low wages, no pensions and no social security net yet they managed to save for old age.

[only2garners]

How JAL, freedom of movement is sacrosanct for EU counties. If you look at immigration from non EU countries to the UK you will a very different picture, i.e. very small numbers.

Main shareholders in what ?

It's a nice polemical stance, unfortunately not backed up by the numbers. In yesterday's numbers there were 184,000 from the EU and 188,000 from outside the EU.

[yoda]

It's a nice polemical stance, unfortunately not backed up by the numbers. In yesterday's numbers there were 184,000 from the EU and 188,000 from outside the EU.

That is not the full picture, the actual figure for arrivals is over 600k you are quoting net figures after the leavers have been taken out. You also need to look at the make up of the figures.

[only2garners]

Yes. I know they are net figures but that's surely what matters isn't it? As far as I understand it the 333,000 is made up of a net +184,000 from the EU, a net +188,000 from outside the EU and a net -33,000 UK citizens. In what way is +188,000 a very small net figure?

[yoda]

Yes. I know they are net figures but that's surely what matters isn't it? As far as I understand it the 333,000 is made up of a net +184,000 from the EU, a net +188,000 from outside the EU and a net -33,000 UK citizens. In what way is +188,000 a very small net figure?

Depends on how you view the figures,

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics

A quote from the report says

"More British citizens leave the country than arrive"

Good article on the beeb

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36382199

[only2garners]

Depends on how you view the figures,

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics

A quote from the report says

"More British citizens leave the country than arrive"

Good article on the beeb

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36382199

That's exactly what I said above, a net 33,000 UK citizens left.

You seem to be trying very hard to deflect my original point. You said that a very small number of non EU citizens come to the UK. Yesterday's support said it was a net 188,000, slightly more than from the EU.

[yoda]

That's exactly what I said above, a net 33,000 UK citizens left.

You seem to be trying very hard to deflect my original point. You said that a very small number of non EU citizens come to the UK. Yesterday's support said it was a net 188,000, slightly more than from the EU.

No not trying to do that, just trying to understand the figures, I think that net figure includes students etc

[Al]

By talking about my children's generation I am looking 40/45 years ahead. They are the current working population and won't qualify for state pension till 70.

Auto enrolment is the start of the abolition or signicant reduction in the state pension. It may be dressed up as something else but the reality is different. Aside from this you will know as well as I without an additional pension of some sort £8000 pa - £153/week - isn't enough to provide in retirement. Consequently auto enrolment to encourage saving and pave the way for changes to state pension is essential.

Add to this the very real issue of the changing housing market - fewer owners, more renters - and the issue of financing retirement will continue to increase. My kids both pay £600/month in rent. The current state pension would leave them with £12/month to live on!!! Young people need to be investing at least 15% of income to prepare for old age.

My boys are late 30's early 40's and I believe that there will still be a State Pension when they are 70. They are my main concern. I do agree that it is necessary to enhance this with a private pension and £8,000 is probably a minimum. However they are both sensible lads and with their own and a wife's pension they will easily exceed that in addition to the lump sum that my wife and I will leave them. They will be OK.

[adopted scouser]

Anyone else getting sick of the EU referendum? It's all we hear these days on television and in the media, don't get me wrong it's an important decision but it's become nauseatingly boring.

Can't wait until I get my postal ballot and be done with it.

It's either that or the Hillsborough inquest, I'm 'sympathy weary' now.

[Al]

It's either that or the Hillsborough inquest, I'm 'sympathy weary' now.

I've been sick of Hillsborough for months. If it was anywhere else but Liverpool it would have been over years ago. Always the victims.

[ABBEY]

Bradford never gets mentioned

[ABBEY]

[Al]

Labour voter = Loser.