[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[jim mk2]

From the FT:

"Global sovereign bonds set new milestones and equities fell sharply on Friday, as negative interest rate policies, renewed angst over the US economy and fears over the UK leaving the EU sent investors into some of the world’s safest assets"

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[yoda]

From the FT:

"Global sovereign bonds set new milestones and equities fell sharply on Friday, as negative interest rate policies, renewed angst over the US economy and fears over the UK leaving the EU sent investors into some of the world’s safest assets"

Next

The EU banks are in deep pooh

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36498656

[jim mk2]

....and ?

"Global sovereign bonds set new milestones and equities fell sharply on Friday, as negative interest rate policies, renewed angst over the US economy and fears over the UK leaving the EU sent investors into some of the world’s safest assets"

[yoda]

....and ?

"Global sovereign bonds set new milestones and equities fell sharply on Friday, as negative interest rate policies, renewed angst over the US economy and fears over the UK leaving the EU sent investors into some of the world’s safest assets"

And the EU is in crisis, it may not last much longer, with or without us

[joey_big_nose]

Speaking of costs, wonder how astronomical the bill for security at the Euros is gonna be? A Muslim terrorist threat costing the predominantly non-Muslim french taxpayer I'd estimate £100m+ over the tournament. Wonder if that monetary cost has been factored in by those eager to lambast the financial cost of Brexit. Stay in and we increase the terrorist threat and therefore increase the cost of policing every major event in this country well into the future. Probably talking billions over a few decades.

I find this sort of logic bizarre in the extreme. I suppose your policy in 1970 would have been to forcibly remove all the Irish from the UK?

Terrorists are a small proportion of a much larger population, to continue to tar them all with the same brush is ugly, repugnant and utterly stupid. Bloody hell, get a grip.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I find this sort of logic bizarre in the extreme. I suppose your policy in 1970 would have been to forcibly remove all the Irish from the UK?

Terrorists are a small proportion of a much larger population, to continue to tar them all with the same brush is ugly, repugnant and utterly stupid. Bloody hell, get a grip.

Get a grip?? From one of the numerous anti-bombing campaign morons on this board a few months ago? Hey Joey, did you know Iraq and Syria have recently made significant military gains against IS? I wonder why that is? Oh yeah, because we bloody helped them as your idiotic ilk were demanding we not do and sending death threats to MPs in the process. But let's ignore that, death threats aren't that bad. Certainly not evidence of the political left in this country becoming wildly unhinged, undemocratic and frankly dangerous.

No, death threats, violent rallies in London, rampant anti-semitism. That's nothing compared to my "repugnant" views of wanting out of the EU. You need to get a bloody grip, grow up, and stop rolling out the insults when someone disagrees with your precious little opinion. Personally I view it with utter disdain and if the recent Leave surge in the opinion polls is to be trusted then I'm not the only one and long may it continue. I'd rather have Joey Essex in charge of this country than suffer your pompous PC garbage.

[Al]

From the FT:

"Global sovereign bonds set new milestones and equities fell sharply on Friday, as negative interest rate policies, renewed angst over the US economy and fears over the UK leaving the EU sent investors into some of the world’s safest assets"

Next

Brexit only a minor reason then. EU in trouble, bank bad debts and above are the major reasons. Stop twisting the facts to suit your arguments.

[philipl]

Can't beleive that some people want to stay in the EU just so they can stand in a shorter que at the airports, the aircraft takes off as one aircraft, not two, eliteist or what.

I have eight intra European flights in the next two weeks.

Adding one hour plus to every journey is a massive chunk of what remains of my life.

[philipl]

Uncertainty need not be a downside. It can be an upside too and that is what I believe will happen. There is also uncertainty by remaining. Nobody knows what Brussels will rule next or if another country will leave or join. If we leave we make our own decisions. If we remain we have to do what foreigners say we have to do.

There is massive uncertainty to what "leave" means.

The Brexit campaign are being completely and utterly dishonest.

Very simply-

Do they want to "control immigration"

YES that means leaving the Single Market, avaerage tarifs of 17% imposed on all British goods and services sold to the EU countries and the UK exiting all VAT and tax treaties predicated on the single market, visas for Brits travelling to any EU country and right of abode elsewhere in Europe being revoked.

This means a collapsing Pound, massive unemployment, the public finances gone to hell and the NHS budget unfunded as 500,000 British pensioners reluctantly "come home".

Ah but Brexit say, we will stay in the single market-

THEN BREXT MEANS BRITAIN CANNOT CONTROL IMMIGRATION.

Please can anyone tell me what the Brexit position is because I cannot see one and an awful lot of people being completely duped.

[Al]

There is massive uncertainty to what "leave" means.

The Brexit campaign are being completely and utterly dishonest.

Very simply-

Do they want to "control immigration"

YES that means leaving the Single Market, avaerage tarifs of 17% imposed on all British goods and services sold to the EU countries and the UK exiting all VAT and tax treaties predicated on the single market, visas for Brits travelling to any EU country and right of abode elsewhere in Europe being revoked.

This means a collapsing Pound, massive unemployment, the public finances gone to hell and the NHS budget unfunded as 500,000 British pensioners reluctantly "come home".

Ah but Brexit say, we will stay in the single market-

THEN BREXT MEANS BRITAIN CANNOT CONTROL IMMIGRATION.

Please can anyone tell me what the Brexit position is because I cannot see one and an awful lot of people being completely duped.

Leave or not it is all uncertain which is one reason why the stock markets are depressed. We certainly cannot control immigration within the EU. On our own we can negotiate our own trade deals. You are just repeating the same crap that all the ones who want to remain do. I understand that as an expat Brexit would cause you a problem but that is your problem not ours within the UK.

[Paul]

All expats are migrants and all migrants are expats. It simply depends on which word one chooses to use.

For the moment let's ignore migration. The key issue regarding trade deals is if we wish to trade with the single market we still have to comply with every EU regulation. The EU will not allow import of products that do not meet its own standards in precisely the same way as the UK only permits import of product which meets our standards. Consequently we will not be freed of one millimetre of the red tape which is said to restrict our industries.

The EU will hold the whip hand in single market trade negotiations. Yes of course the EU will still wish to trade with the UK but could walk away from us. The leave campaign believe we can trade with the rest of the world. It's true we can. However imagine a scenario where there is a UK / EU stand off and a deal can't be reached. The EU would begin to look to trade into the very same markets Brexit claim we can tackle. If the EU chose to undercut the UK in a trade war for world markets I think we can see who will win.

Moving to migration I apologise for using horticulture again as the example but 40 years direct experience tells me the following is true. Post war for decades Britsh seasonal labour followed crops round the country, as this work force declined in the 80s Portugese and some Spanish labour began to arrive. This labour was allowed under special licence and exemption schemes for horticulture which disappeared when these countries joined the EU. As their home economies improved this labour stayed at home and was replaced by Eastern European labour, initially Polish but now increasingly other countries as prospects at home improve for Poles. I fully believe there will come a point when the Eastern European labour is replaced by Africans. Its a cycle pure and simple.

If we leave the EU the NFU will immediately lobby for special licence for foreign labour to come to the industry. It will make not one jot of difference to the migration figures other than these people go home at the end of the season.

Guess what? The migrant workers don't hang around now. All ours finished yesterday and fly home today. Last weekend two of them finished early, packed everyone's gear in a van and drove it back to Poland. This is what REALLY happens not what the papers say.

Yes a small proportion arrive from the EU and live off benefits though Cameron has tackled that one. All the data shows EU workers contribute more fiscally to the UK than they takey out.

As far as I can see the leave campaign fall into two camps; those who don't like migrants and those who have been influenced by untruths propagated by the first group re migration.

Leave are going to be very disappointed if they win as migration will not change. We need the workforce and the only way to change that is to become almost self sufficient as a country. It will never happen in the modern world.

Those who wish to risk everything and follow a powerless collective of out campaigners should vote leave. Remember though there isn't a single out campaigner in power to effect any change. Also remember in our democracy our elected MPs could vote down a leave decision - now that would be interesting.

[jim mk2]

And the EU is in crisis, it may not last much longer, with or without us

Irrelevant. The question was whether stocks have priced in the effects of a Brexit. As always, you've gone off on a tangent.

[jim mk2]

Brexit only a minor reason then. EU in trouble, bank bad debts and above are the major reasons. Stop twisting the facts to suit your arguments.

I ain't twisting facts - just showing you what the experts are saying about the stock market and the reasons for its decline.

The stock market has been fairly sanguine about the referendum because a Remain vote has always been more likely.

However there is a perception that the Leave camp is gaining ground and might actually win - which the market will not be happy about.

As I said previously, the market at its current level does not take into account a Brexit and could easily fall back to the 5000-5500 level.

A vote to Remain would of course see it rebound sharply.

So the message is clear - if you want your pensions to be hit, your investments to go down, and your value of your house to fall, vote Leave on June 23.

Your choice.

[yoda]

Irrelevant. The question was whether stocks have priced in the effects of a Brexit. As always, you've gone off on a tangent.

Ok back on topic, I think the polls still show Blackburn in favour of leaving the EU.

[Paul]

Ok back on topic, I think the polls still show Blackburn in favour of leaving the EU.

Can we compromise? Blackburn leaves Chorley and the rest of us stay.

[Al]

I ain't twisting facts - just showing you what the experts are saying about the stock market and the reasons for its decline.

The stock market has been fairly sanguine about the referendum because a Remain vote has always been more likely.

However there is a perception that the Leave camp is gaining ground and might actually win - which the market will not be happy about.

As I said previously, the market at its current level does not take into account a Brexit and could easily fall back to the 5000-5500 level.

A vote to Remain would of course see it rebound sharply.

So the message is clear - if you want your pensions to be hit, your investments to go down, and your value of your house to fall, vote Leave on June 23.

Your choice.

You are doing what you always do, quoting your opinion as fact. The market does have at least a degree of Brexit uncertainty already accounted for within it. It may well fall again but there are countless reasons why that MAY happen otherwise there would be no risk in buying shares but Brexit is not a major reason. That has already been adjusted for.

That is my opinion.

Can we compromise? Blackburn leaves Chorley and the rest of us stay.

You can have Chorley. The rest needs to leave!

[dave birch]

I can't understand why anyone would want to put another level of government in.

Here, in Aus, I'm advocating to get rid of one level of Government.

To those that fear a life outside of the EU, it's quite normal, trade exists, travel exists, stupid trade deals that seem to favour US conglomerates exist, and it allows your nation to restrict who comes in, from where ever.

[philipl]

I can't understand why anyone would want to put another level of government in.

Here, in Aus, I'm advocating to get rid of one level of Government.

To those that fear a life outside of the EU, it's quite normal, trade exists, travel exists, stupid trade deals that seem to favour US conglomerates exist, and it allows your nation to restrict who comes in, from where ever.

Very simple, there are enormous population blocs-

USA/NAFTA- 600m

ASEAN- 500m

Latam- 1bn

OAS (Africa)- 1.2bn

India- 1.1bn

China- 1.3bn

EU- 550m

The reality is these blocs talk and negotiate with each other.

You are either in a bloc and at the table or you are not.

If you are in a bloc you have the opportunity to influence and shape the way it works and negotiates. If you are not, you are an afterthought.

Britain on its own is 3% of the global economy and 1% of the global population and have virtually zero ability to shape world events in any meaningful way- a bit like Australia. Outside the EU, the British permanent seat at the UN Security Council will certainly be lost.

[philipl]

Leave or not it is all uncertain which is one reason why the stock markets are depressed. We certainly cannot control immigration within the EU. On our own we can negotiate our own trade deals. You are just repeating the same crap that all the ones who want to remain do. I understand that as an expat Brexit would cause you a problem but that is your problem not ours within the UK.

I am not an expat. I have homes in London and Malta and pay all my taxes in the UK as a UK resident and an a UK voter.

So our status as citizens is identical.

Yes there is uncertainty on both sides but the degree of uncertainty of Brexit is MONSTROUS and the degree of uncertainty of Remain is a much more of an assessable and known quantity.

Let me ask again-

On Brexit

What will it be- leave the single market to stop the free movement of 63m British citizens and incidentally prevent the migration of perhaps 200,000 EU citizens into the UK

or -stay in the single market and avoid completely @#/? up the British economy?

Still no answer to this one.

[Al]

I am not an expat. I have homes in London and Malta and pay all my taxes in the UK as a UK resident and an a UK voter.

So our status as citizens is identical.

Yes there is uncertainty on both sides but the degree of uncertainty of Brexit is MONSTROUS and the degree of uncertainty of Remain is a much more of an assessable and known quantity.

Let me ask again-

On Brexit

What will it be- leave the single market to stop the free movement of 63m British citizens and incidentally prevent the migration of perhaps 200,000 EU citizens into the UK

or -stay in the single market and avoid completely @#/? up the British economy?

Still no answer to this one.

As long as I have a passport I can travel anywhere that I want to in the world. I have no wish to emigrate so why should worry about free movement except for immigration into Britain.

OK you are not an ExPat but an exit from the EU might well effect your medical position in Malta would it not? I can see that for you personally you would want to remain. For me personally it is better to leave and be governed by the UK.

[JAL]

The British government is elected and paid well to manage our borders apportioning blame to the Europeans doesn't wash equally the failure to arest and lock up Philip Green for taking the country for half a billion pounds doesn't sit kindly either.

What does the British government do these days !

[yoda]

Very simple, there are enormous population blocs-

USA/NAFTA- 600m

ASEAN- 500m

Latam- 1bn

OAS (Africa)- 1.2bn

India- 1.1bn

China- 1.3bn

EU- 550m

The reality is these blocs talk and negotiate with each other.

You are either in a bloc and at the table or you are not.

If you are in a bloc you have the opportunity to influence and shape the way it works and negotiates. If you are not, you are an afterthought.

Britain on its own is 3% of the global economy and 1% of the global population and have virtually zero ability to shape world events in any meaningful way- a bit like Australia. Outside the EU, the British permanent seat at the UN Security Council will certainly be lost.

The blocs you have quoted are not heading towards political union.

I am not an expat. I have homes in London and Malta and pay all my taxes in the UK as a UK resident and an a UK voter.

So our status as citizens is identical.

Yes there is uncertainty on both sides but the degree of uncertainty of Brexit is MONSTROUS and the degree of uncertainty of Remain is a much more of an assessable and known quantity.

Let me ask again-

On Brexit

What will it be- leave the single market to stop the free movement of 63m British citizens and incidentally prevent the migration of perhaps 200,000 EU citizens into the UK

or -stay in the single market and avoid completely @#/? up the British economy?

Still no answer to this one.

You haven't noticed that the goal posts' have moved, because of the constant talking down and trying instil fear into the debate and now threats, the in camp have people thinking, hang on we are not taking that anymore hence the change in the polls.

The British government is elected and paid well to manage our borders apportioning blame to the Europeans doesn't wash equally the failure to arest and lock up Philip Green for taking the country for half a billion pounds doesn't sit kindly either.

What does the British government do these days !

How many times do you need telling, they do what Brussels tell them to do

[philipl]

So nobody advocating Brexit appears even to understand the question.

Single European Market

In or Out?

[Al]

So nobody advocating Brexit appears even to understand the question.

Single European Market

In or Out?

Single European Market is what we originally joined. This monster that has become the United States of Europe is what we need to get out of.

Are you moving the goal posts or has Brussels moved them for you?

[yoda]

So nobody advocating Brexit appears even to understand the question.

Single European Market

In or Out?

If it was a single European market without political union, I don't think there would be a problem. None of the trading blocks you quoted have political union on the agenda.

Posting all over face book that people are thick won't help you case either.

Try asking your future wife if her country would seed any sovereignty, I already know the answer from mine by the way.