[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[philipl]

Neither of you are remotely understanding the question are you?

[JAL]

The blocs you have quoted are not heading towards political union.

You haven't noticed that the goal posts' have moved, because of the constant talking down and trying instil fear into the debate and now threats, the in camp have people thinking, hang on we are not taking that anymore hence the change in the polls.

How many times do you need telling, they do what Brussels tell them to do

How much did Brussels fine Britain for corporate tax evasion last year or the year before ?

When the French went into the Google offices over there where they acting on what Brussels told them ?

[yoda]

Neither of you are remotely understanding the question are you?

You are not understanding that the goal posts have moved due to the incessant talking down, fear monging and threats from the stay camp.

Take a look at the polls

How much did Brussels fine Britain for corporate tax evasion last year or the year before ?

When the French went into the Google offices over there where they acting on what Brussels told them ?

Do and try and keep on topic John

[adopted scouser]

You are not understanding that the goal posts have moved due to the incessant talking down, fear monging and threats from the stay camp.

Take a look at the polls

Do and try and keep on topic John

Tell me you meant that ?!

The remain camp are the ones panicking. Nine million quid on leaflets during the period of austerity ? Cameron agreeing with his oppos ?

Two more countries are about to wobble and will need bailing out, it's a disaster. Vote out and be done with it, what are we worried about ?

[Al]

Neither of you are remotely understanding the question are you?

Maybe you just don't want to see the answer.

[only2garners]

Well I for one haven't seen the answer yet Al - do you want to be in the single market or not?

[dave birch]

Well I for one haven't seen the answer yet Al - do you want to be in the single market or not?

O2G, From my point of view, If it were just a matter of a "single market"(as in a trading bloc) I don't think there would be any problem, and you wouldn't be having this referendum.

It's the political aspect that seems to concern some.

[philipl]

O2G, From my point of view, If it were just a matter of a "single market"(as in a trading bloc) I don't think there would be any problem, and you wouldn't be having this referendum.

It's the political aspect that seems to concern some.

And Britain has an extensive series of opt outs on the political issues

FACT- Britain is NOT committed to ever closer union

FACT- Britain is NOT using the Euro (yet is the world capital of the Euro ONLY because it is a member of the EU)

FACT- Britain is NOT in the Schengen Zone

Britain IN REALITY is in the Trading Zone and cherry picking all the best bits of being in the political grouping.

This Referendum is sheer vandalism of Britain already having the dream position of being in the EU for the bits which are incredibly useful.

Anyway not a single Brexiter has answered this very simple question:

Single European Market IN or OUT?

[dave birch]

Philip, there is no doubt that the EU is becoming an increasingly political entity, as you have agreed "Britain IN REALITY is in the Trading Zone and cherry picking all the best bits of being in the political grouping."

As I said, it's this aspect that seems to concern some.

Going back to one of my original points made earlier, I can't understand why anyone would want to impose another level of Government on itself. Surely, it's beneficial enough to be in a large trading block, without having to surrender one's borders to the ever enlarging EU? I couldn't see China or the US creating an EU style Zone. I'd suggest the the US support it from a purely strategic point of view, in that it counters Russia on it's borders.

I only have a passing interest in the matter, and then only because of the hand wringing going on.

[philipl]

The issue is this, the days of a single nation state being master of its own destiny are over.

The EU has beaten the @#/? out of global corporations, extracted massive fines AND changed the way they do business.

Can Britain do this on its own? No

If we make life tough because we want to protect health, environment, working conditions, companies simply move elsewhere. As individual nations, there is simply a race to the bottom of worse standards, lower taxes, bigger bribes in a downwards beggar they neighbour.

Now look at the technologies which will change our lives far more in the next ten years than technology has changed our lives in the last 100. Can Britain regulate these on its own- cloud cuckoo land to think that we can.

Can Britain have a massive voice as soon to be the largest nation in a block of 550m people- you bet we can.

The EU is an extension and enhancement to British sovereignty and power.

For God's sake, if Brexiters are so convinced the British are such total wimps and soft touches in arguing our case within a club we are one of the largest members of, we will get trampled all over in Brexit negotiations and on our own without allies in the bigger world.

[Paul]

Philip, there is no doubt that the EU is becoming an increasingly political entity, as you have agreed "Britain IN REALITY is in the Trading Zone and cherry picking all the best bits of being in the political grouping."

As I said, it's this aspect that seems to concern some.

Going back to one of my original points made earlier, I can't understand why anyone would want to impose another level of Government on itself. Surely, it's beneficial enough to be in a large trading block, without having to surrender one's borders to the ever enlarging EU? I couldn't see China or the US creating an EU style Zone. I'd suggest the the US support it from a purely strategic point of view, in that it counters Russia on it's borders.

I only have a passing interest in the matter, and then only because of the hand wringing going on.

I don't follow the argument regarding the EU being a political grouping. The "bureaucratic nightmare" of the EU and being ruled from Brussels is frequently exampled as to why we should get out but can someone explain where this is political? Examples are often given of some quite ridiculous like straight bananas and cucumbers or the difference between a turnip and a swede. Most of this "bureaucracy" is intended to create the level playing field which is the Single Market - surely a single market cannot possibly exist if members work under different regulations in their individual countries? Alongside these industrial (to use the word very broadly) we have what I would term social standards which are closely connected with trade and have two benefits - a contribution to the level playing field and improving and protecting rights for workers and citizens - given the numbers who want to enter the EU this seems successful. These social rights would include the working time directive, disability rights, free movement, not only of labour, across Europe. The other area the out campaign and sceptics raise is the impact on our legal laws but virtually every example raised is in relation to the Human Right Act which is nothing to do with the EU

For me all of this is broadly speaking social and not political. The EU does not determine a countries defence policy, foreign policy, direct taxation. So where is the political grouping or union other than say in situations when EU countries stand together to confront a common threat and this is an alliance which would surely exist anyway.

We don't give up our sovereignty; we make our own decisions on the country's direction in every area but what we have, if you wish, is "given up," though I prefer agreed to, the right to determine many aspects of health and safety, manufacturing standards etc. all in pursuit of the Single Market. All of which we will be required to comply with any way.

Both in and out seem to believe we need the Single Market and I've yet to see a convincing argument as to why we don't need it. Yes there is a whole world out there to trade with and so we should but to suggest we don't want to be part of a European market is daft on behalf of the leave campaign. So what are the scared of or worried by? It can only be one of two things - the huge social benefits the EU brings to its members' citizens and why is that a concern - or migration and again I have to wonder why this is a concern?

Before the flak comes in I 100% agree migration needs to be controlled but this is far more than simply stepping out of the EU.

[yoda]

Philip and Paul, you are both missing the point that the game has changed over the last few weeks. The remain side has created a situation where a lot of people who feel they have missed out on being in the EU have realised they can express them selves in the vote. This is showing in the polls. The remain side has a big job to turn it round now.

Paul, I would say a sizable majority of our customers are anti EU, not scientific I know and may not be representative of Chorley as a whole but we do have a broad spectrum of the population as customers ranging from Judges to cleaners.

[Al]

Well I for one haven't seen the answer yet Al - do you want to be in the single market or not?

I think I answered that one ages ago. I have no objection, and would like to have, a single market, but will vote against what it has mutated into. That is a United States of Europe, but of course you knew that, and your question was just phrased to provoke an argument.

[Al]

And Britain has an extensive series of opt outs on the political issues

FACT- Britain is NOT committed to ever closer union

FACT- Britain is NOT using the Euro (yet is the world capital of the Euro ONLY because it is a member of the EU)

FACT- Britain is NOT in the Schengen Zone

Britain IN REALITY is in the Trading Zone and cherry picking all the best bits of being in the political grouping.

This Referendum is sheer vandalism of Britain already having the dream position of being in the EU for the bits which are incredibly useful.

Anyway not a single Brexiter has answered this very simple question:

Single European Market IN or OUT?

That's rubbish. Our laws are being made in Brussels.

If you want a definitive answer. Single market - in, United States of Europe - definitely out. Does that clear it up?

I will forgo the former if it is dependant on the latter.

[Norbert Rassragr]

Vote out, and get Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and the hideous Teresa May running the country, backed up by an even more deregulated financial sector. Vote remain, and be part of an ineffective, convoluted gravy train for washed up political figures that cannot sort out it's own problems properly.

Either way is pretty crap.

[Stuart]

Vote out, and get Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and the hideous Teresa May running the country, backed up by an even more deregulated financial sector. Vote remain, and be part of an ineffective, convoluted gravy train for washed up political figures that cannot sort out it's own problems properly.

Either way is pretty crap.

But with the former we will have the opportunity to vote them out in a few years. With the latter, we don't get any vote as to who governs us.

Those most vociferous about 'remain' seem to be politicians and big business'. When I've seen snippets from ordinary folks the overriding feeling seems to be 'leave'.

It makes it very difficult when people are having to choose between the views of two different sets of Tories. Devil and deep blue sea.

[philipl]

That's rubbish. Our laws are being made in Brussels.

If you want a definitive answer. Single market - in, United States of Europe - definitely out. Does that clear it up?

I will forgo the former if it is dependant on the latter.

So no change to the immigration rules then.

You cannot be in the single market without free movement of people across the single market- those are the rules Britain formulated and has accepted for the past 27 years whether a country is an EU member in the SEM or a non-EU country but chooses to be inside the SEM.

[Stuart]

Can anybody provide a view on this. (Nicked from a Fb post).

Fact or fiction?

OK,.. here's a short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU then,.. (it was longer, much longer, but really tough reading. I have however edited this slightly due to those who have asked me to clarify some points. All of it has been fact-checked not only by myself but also many others.)

- Cadbury moved production of several brands to a factory in Poland 2011 with EU grant. Despite promising the workforce they would not.

- Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

- Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds. They have not yet said what UK plants will lose out.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant. That move was not wanted by Peugeot, it was forced on them by EU blundering and cost then dearly.

- British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in Spain using Swedish steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales. (Just assembly. They could have been built entirely in Wales with British steel, ah Tata, maybe not then.)

- Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan. (I didn't believe this till I checked Financial Times)

- Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

- M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

- Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

- Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

- Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

- Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

- Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

- Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

- ICI integration into Hollands AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

- Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase. (Now sold on again)

- JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry. (Joint CEOs charged with financial trading fraud, insider trading)

- UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

- Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

- Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

- The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

- Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada. New trains contract awarded to German company.

- 39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

- The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria and those parts assembled in the UK. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK.

- The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

Yes some companies are in the UK with EU funding, but have you noticed that many, like Tata, are planning to shift the production away again, as soon as they will not have to pay a penalty to the EU for doing so. Hundreds already did, just using British skills to develop products and then opt for lower labour costs, often with a serious loss in quality too like Bosch alternators. Many employ staff only on a part-time basis, minimum wage and even those sent by DWP to work for nothing, those get just their benefits.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.

I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

The way companies abuse the EU commercial assistance system is not doing the EU, Britain or any other country any favours. It has massive loopholes that are simply exploited and no-one in Brussels has the wit nor sense to change it. Change in the EU is slow at best and in most cases, next to impossible due to the intense lobbying by companies with a vested interest in abusing this very broken system. I know Margaret Thatcher was not many people's favourite person, but she did get a number of measures agreed that have now been completely eroded and sadly, by her own party. Mr Junker has said that any more 'special status' for Britain will be difficult and will face legal challenges. In other words, we will not get most of them, if any.

If the EU may break up in the event of Britain voting to leave as suggested by both leaders of the Bundesbank and European Central Bank, then in all honesty, we have as a nation been propping up a failed system for too long, It will probably fail anyway, taking anyone still 'in' with it. Thus, this vote you have is not exactly 'remain' or 'leave', it is more an issue of jumping off the sinking ship while we have a chance to swim ashore now, or waiting till it is in really deep water and going down with it. Either way, being brutally honest, we get wet and will have a struggle.

[Al]

So no change to the immigration rules then.

You cannot be in the single market without free movement of people across the single market- those are the rules Britain formulated and has accepted for the past 27 years whether a country is an EU member in the SEM or a non-EU country but chooses to be inside the SEM.

Who says! Out we are free to renegotiate everything we want to.

As I said I only want to be in a single market if it doesn't depend on EU membership and that includes our choosing who we allow to live in OUR country.

Please read the article in post 840

[yoda]

Visa free travel in the EU is being discussed for at least a million Turks after all, see you don't need to be in the EU to get visa free travel.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36510009

[yoda]

A sensible look at life after Brexit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36500747

[philipl]

28 members of a club have unanimously agreed to the club rules then the one member is now changing their mind in effect saying the club is no good.

Since when ever has the leaving member got any say in changing the club rules for the other 27 who are staying in the club?

That is the reality of "negotiation" on exit.

Norway, Switzerland, Iceland are all outside the EU but inside the single market.

They all have total freedom of movement of all European citizens. Britain will be exactly the same if it decides to leave the EU and remain in the single market.

This is why I am asking Brexiters to answer the simple question:

Single European Market- IN or OUT?

IN= no control over EU movement of people

OUT= visas, long passport queues, tariffs of 10-17% on 60% of all British exports (that is the %age of all goods and services exported going to the EU) and the biggest economic crisis in any of our lifetimes.

[Al]

How many times do you need an answer to that one. Repeating the same thing doesn't prove anything. Please again read post 840 and the attachment.

I'm not answering the same thing again. For your information my vote has already gone in by postal vote so don't waste any more posts on me.

[JAL]

A sensible look at life after Brexit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36500747

What I want to know is what will happen to employment rights once we leave the EU along with pensions in this country.

5th largest economy in the world who spun you that one yoda how much debt is it built on ?

When the interest rates go up what falls out then ?

[Al]

What I want to know is what will happen to employment rights once we leave the EU along with pensions in this country.

5th largest economy in the world who spun you that one yoda how much debt is it built on ?

When the interest rates go up what falls out then ?

I get interest on my savings. Roll on to that.