[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[Biddy]

That's the problem these days, who knows if it is true. Whispers can turn into truths on social media in seconds quite often backed up by "it was there but taken down, here is my photoshopped proof to show it".

The problem with this one is, it looks very much like something the leave.eu camp would indeed do which is pretty sickening.

[RibbleValleyRover]

It was definitely on their twitter page, it came to my attention when Dan Hodges the political commentator tweeted his disgust.

It's extremely distasteful linking the whole issue to the tragic events in Orlando. Leaving the EU or being in the EU whatever the position ISIS and other Islamist extremist groups will want to kill British citizens and cause terror. Leave.EU suggesting that we will be safer out of the EU, is just plain untrue.

[Paul]

That's the problem these days, who knows if it is true. Whispers can turn into truths on social media in seconds quite often backed up by "it was there but taken down, here is my photoshopped proof to show it".

The problem with this one is, it looks very much like something the leave.eu camp would indeed do which is pretty sickening.

It's being reported by several reputable sources - obviously that depends on one's view of certain UK newspapers!

[jim mk2]

Unemployment in the Eurozone 10.2%

Unemployment in the UK 5.4%

You do the maths

We're not in the eurozone.

Meanwhile, gilts, currencies and shares were hit again today as the markets continued to take fright at the prospect of a Brexit.

The FTSE has now fallen 250 points in 3 days to below 6100. An actual Brexit next week and we could be below the 5,500 level - a frightening prospect for those who rely on pensions and investments for their income.

Here's a thought for today - perhaps a Brexit would be a good idea if only to stop England football supporters wrecking European towns and cities.

Regaining control of the borders would prevent the scum travelling abroad and besmirching this country's reputation yet again.

I'm sure Europeans would be in favour of keeping these xenophobic Brexit voters firmly on the island.

[Mike E]

So if it makes no difference (as some claim above) if we leave, then EU status is redundant?

If I'm being thick, I apologise, but even on here not a single person has said anything definitive.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

It was definitely on their twitter page, it came to my attention when Dan Hodges the political commentator tweeted his disgust.

It's extremely distasteful linking the whole issue to the tragic events in Orlando. Leaving the EU or being in the EU whatever the position ISIS and other Islamist extremist groups will want to kill British citizens and cause terror. Leave.EU suggesting that we will be safer out of the EU, is just plain untrue.

Except it's not just plain untrue. It's untrue in your opinion, it's certainly true in mine. 2 of the Paris attackers were migrants that have arrived in the recent wave. It is perfectly viable in my opinion to link migration to an increased terror threat.

And if that's the case then how is it sick or outrageous or disgusting or whatever to reference an example of what your campaign has been saying for months? If you've been saying migration increases the terror threat, then a recent first-generation immigrant who despises the culture and values of the country his parents moved to kills a load of people, why can't it be used as an example for your argument?

If around the time of the Trident renewal row, some rogue British captain had nuked say the Faroes, could Corbyn never have referenced it as a reason his opinion was correct? Seems very odd to me. Unless it's more respectful to wait a few months before using it as a political example? Suppose I get that.

[Paul]

So if it makes no difference (as some claim above) if we leave, then EU status is redundant?

If I'm being thick, I apologise, but even on here not a single person has said anything definitive.

I think Mike the point is in many of the ways the leave campaign claim an exit will improve things in reality there will be no change in regard to the single market, EU regulation and migration.

There will be significant change to our economy, position and influence in Europe and the world.

It does make a difference, a massive difference, but not, sadly, for leave supporters in any of the ways they hope.

It's your future we are voting for not mine. I'd encourage you to think very carefully about how you vote.

[yoda]

Then again, staying could be like buying a ticket for the Titanic just after it hit the iceberg.

The ticket office insisting it is unsinkable.

[PLJPB]

It is a fact that there is a common tariff barrier around the EU.

If Britain goes out of the EU then British goods will be outside and facing the same barrier.

But surely Britain will impose the same level of tariffs and as a net importer we will actually be better off?

[yoda]

I think it's time to introduce drugs testing for the EU elite

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36515680

[Stuart]

So is nobody from the Remain side going to dispute these apparent facts? It would seem then that the EU has been selling the UK down the river for years and years. Not just encouraging but funding companies to take jobs out of the UK. Hardly a great reason to continue...

Can anybody provide a view on this. (Nicked from a Fb post).

Fact or fiction?

OK,.. here's a short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU then,.. (it was longer, much longer, but really tough reading. I have however edited this slightly due to those who have asked me to clarify some points. All of it has been fact-checked not only by myself but also many others.)

- Cadbury moved production of several brands to a factory in Poland 2011 with EU grant. Despite promising the workforce they would not.

- Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

- Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds. They have not yet said what UK plants will lose out.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant. That move was not wanted by Peugeot, it was forced on them by EU blundering and cost then dearly.

- British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in Spain using Swedish steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales. (Just assembly. They could have been built entirely in Wales with British steel, ah Tata, maybe not then.)

- Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan. (I didn't believe this till I checked Financial Times)

- Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

- M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

- Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

- Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

- Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

- Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

- Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

- Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

- ICI integration into Hollands AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

- Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase. (Now sold on again)

- JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry. (Joint CEOs charged with financial trading fraud, insider trading)

- UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

- Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

- Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

- The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

- Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada. New trains contract awarded to German company.

- 39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

- The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria and those parts assembled in the UK. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK.

- The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

Yes some companies are in the UK with EU funding, but have you noticed that many, like Tata, are planning to shift the production away again, as soon as they will not have to pay a penalty to the EU for doing so. Hundreds already did, just using British skills to develop products and then opt for lower labour costs, often with a serious loss in quality too like Bosch alternators. Many employ staff only on a part-time basis, minimum wage and even those sent by DWP to work for nothing, those get just their benefits.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.

I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

The way companies abuse the EU commercial assistance system is not doing the EU, Britain or any other country any favours. It has massive loopholes that are simply exploited and no-one in Brussels has the wit nor sense to change it. Change in the EU is slow at best and in most cases, next to impossible due to the intense lobbying by companies with a vested interest in abusing this very broken system. I know Margaret Thatcher was not many people's favourite person, but she did get a number of measures agreed that have now been completely eroded and sadly, by her own party. Mr Junker has said that any more 'special status' for Britain will be difficult and will face legal challenges. In other words, we will not get most of them, if any.

If the EU may break up in the event of Britain voting to leave as suggested by both leaders of the Bundesbank and European Central Bank, then in all honesty, we have as a nation been propping up a failed system for too long, It will probably fail anyway, taking anyone still 'in' with it. Thus, this vote you have is not exactly 'remain' or 'leave', it is more an issue of jumping off the sinking ship while we have a chance to swim ashore now, or waiting till it is in really deep water and going down with it. Either way, being brutally honest, we get wet and will have a struggle.

[joey_big_nose]

Betting odds are 64% Remain 36% Leave.

[Paul]

So is nobody from the Remain side going to dispute these apparent facts? It would seem then that the EU has been selling the UK down the river for years and years. Not just encouraging but funding companies to take jobs out of the UK. Hardly a great reason to continue...

I did take the trouble to read the whole thing Stuart. Whether these are apparent facts, to use your words which suggest an element of doubt, or not I was struck halfway through by the thought its relatively easy to write a similar list of pro EU points.

I've had two shared on my FB in the last week.

What matters is considering the argument put forward by each side and making a decision. For me this always ends with a remain decision because for all the leave campaign promise change these are empty promises - none of them have any power.

There will be no change so why throw it all away on the basis it will solve one problem - migration. Which it won't.

[jim mk2]

So is nobody from the Remain side going to dispute these apparent facts? It would seem then that the EU has been selling the UK down the river for years and years. Not just encouraging but funding companies to take jobs out of the UK. Hardly a great reason to continue...

Alot of the events in that list are the result of British government policy over the past 30 - 40 years. The fact we took those decisions (right or wrong) shows we already have the "sovereignty" that Brexiteers say they want to claim back. It also doesn't mention the businesses that have been attracted to the UK as a result of EU grants and subsidies.

Unemployment in the Eurozone 10.2%

Unemployment in the UK 5.4%

We're not in the eurozone.

[Mike E]

I might vote leave just to irritate jimbo

In all seriousness, I'm still utterly torn. There's too much BS from both sides so I'll (and I suspect many others) just vote on instinct on the day.

[philipl]

Cold wet weather is unpleasant, vote leave to bring back sunny days..

That is about the level of that leave leaflets and they accuse remain of scaring people.

[Mike E]

Cold wet weather is unpleasant, vote leave to bring back sunny days..

That is about the level of that leave leaflets and they accuse remain of scaring people.

Meanwhile the Remain camp tell us we need to accept the rain as we'll never see the Sun anyway, even though we know Sun exists.

Neither camp has said anything that relates to the working man, only figures in the millions and billions which are just a bunch of meaningless zeroes to most.

Hell, the only points I legitimately registered was Paul's mention of data roaming charges (Remain) and that the only MP I can actually respect (Mr Skinner) wants us to leave. Even the joke of shorter queues at the airport on holiday means more to people than the number of zeroes coming in or going out.

Neither camp is in touch with the reality of working life and cannot make this vote relate to your man or woman on the street.

[Al]

I did take the trouble to read the whole thing Stuart. Whether these are apparent facts, to use your words which suggest an element of doubt, or not I was struck halfway through by the thought its relatively easy to write a similar list of pro EU points.

I've had two shared on my FB in the last week.

What matters is considering the argument put forward by each side and making a decision. For me this always ends with a remain decision because for all the leave campaign promise change these are empty promises - none of them have any power.

There will be no change so why throw it all away on the basis it will solve one problem - migration. Which it won't.

Yes it will!

I might vote leave just to irritate jimbo

In all seriousness, I'm still utterly torn. There's too much BS from both sides so I'll (and I suspect many others) just vote on instinct on the day.

That's an excellent reason to vote leave.

Cold wet weather is unpleasant, vote leave to bring back sunny days..

That is about the level of that leave leaflets and they accuse remain of scaring people.

You are getting desperate now Phillip.

[Mike Graham]

Cameron & Corbyn = Stay........this is frightening from two mad politicians

Boris & Patel = Leave........equally frightening from two dangerous politicians

What do the Venkys want and I will vote the opposite.

[Biddy]

So is nobody from the Remain side going to dispute these apparent facts? It would seem then that the EU has been selling the UK down the river for years and years. Not just encouraging but funding companies to take jobs out of the UK. Hardly a great reason to continue...

The list may or may not be accurate, but I presume there are half truths to everything. For example, I just want to pick up on this one:-

- Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada. New trains contract awarded to German company.

Now I don't actually know the in's and out's of Bombardiers business but SINCE the loss of the Thameslink train contract to Siemens back in 2011, Bombardier has since won the Crossrail contract and recently have opened a massive new building up on a trading estate near me (about 15 miles outside of Derby). So it looks from the outside that they have moved on and business has increased for them.

As I say, half a bad truth not backed up by other positives. Which pretty much sums up this whole referendum on both sides.

[yoda]

Alot of the events in that list are the result of British government policy over the past 30 - 40 years. The fact we took those decisions (right or wrong) shows we already have the "sovereignty" that Brexiteers say they want to claim back. It also doesn't mention the businesses that have been attracted to the UK as a result of EU grants and subsidies.

We're not in the eurozone.

Not yet you mean

Cameron & Corbyn = Stay........this is frightening from two mad politicians

Boris & Patel = Leave........equally frightening from two dangerous politicians

What do the Venkys want and I will vote the opposite.

You are not young enough to wait until the Venky"s make that decision

[Paul]

Yes it will!

Al I presume this refers to my view migration won't change. I base my view on to points - we will still require migrant labour of some form and migration from outside the EU will continue.

What I would genuinely like to understand, because I don't, is how greater influence of border controls will reduce migration. I fully appreciate there can be greater checks, a choice as to who enters etc. but this doesn't escape the fundamental point that migrant labour is necessary. We aren't going to interview and approve everyone who comes to work in catering or horticulture!

One interesting point which had not occurred to me but I instantly recognised as true was made by an employer in R4 this morning. His business is 50% permanent local labour and 50% seasonal migrant. He imports 50% of his materials from the EU and exports 50% of his production to the EU.

This employer made the very clear point that the seasonal works allow him to fulfill peak demand and therefore support employment of his permanent local staff.

[yoda]

Al I presume this refers to my view migration won't change. I base my view on to points - we will still require migrant labour of some form and migration from outside the EU will continue.

What I would genuinely like to understand, because I don't, is how greater influence of border controls will reduce migration. I fully appreciate there can be greater checks, a choice as to who enters etc. but this doesn't escape the fundamental point that migrant labour is necessary. We aren't going to interview and approve everyone who comes to work in catering or horticulture!

One interesting point which had not occurred to me but I instantly recognised as true was made by an employer in R4 this morning. His business is 50% permanent local labour and 50% seasonal migrant. He imports 50% of his materials from the EU and exports 50% of his production to the EU.

This employer made the very clear point that the seasonal works allow him to fulfill peak demand and therefore support employment of his permanent local staff.

Are those workers not the type that would/could be included in a points based system ?

[jim mk2]

Not yet you mean

And never likely to be - unless it suits us. Which has always been our relationship with the EU.

I notice the Sun has "come out" and given its support for Leave on its front page today - not surprising since Murdoch as always been anti-EU.

The London Evening Standard journalist Anthony Hilton once asked Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union.

“That’s easy,” he replied. “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice".

So there you are - Brussels either stands up to or ignores one of the most powerful and dangerous media moguls in the world while our governments dance to his tune.

It's your vote.

[yoda]

If we are not in the Euro we will not be at the top table in Europe, follow the money