[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[dave birch]

And never likely to be - unless it suits us. Which has always been our relationship with the EU.

I notice the Sun has "come out" and given its support for Leave on its front page today - not surprising since Murdoch as always been anti-EU.

The London Evening Standard journalist Anthony Hilton once asked Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union.

“That’s easy,” he replied. “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice".

So there you are - Brussels either stands up to or ignores one of the most powerful and dangerous media moguls in the world while our governments dance to his tune.

It's your vote.

Who paid your wages, who pays your pension?

You worked for them and now you call a different tune.

[jim mk2]

Who paid your wages, who pays your pension?

You worked for them and now you call a different tune.

Wrong on both counts - but that's not unusual.

If we are not in the Euro we will not be at the top table in Europe, follow the money

Our current relationship with Europe works just fine.

[jim mk2]

Wrong on both counts - sorry.

If we are not in the Euro we will not be at the top table in Europe, follow the money

Our current relationship with the EU works just fine.

[perthblue02]

Wrong on both counts - sorry.

Our current relationship with the EU works just fine.

So Jim these nasty greedy bankers with the big bonuses that are funding the remain campaign, mates of yours now? No more complaints or grumblings about them any more? yum yum champagne la socialist

[Al]

Al I presume this refers to my view migration won't change. I base my view on to points - we will still require migrant labour of some form and migration from outside the EU will continue.

What I would genuinely like to understand, because I don't, is how greater influence of border controls will reduce migration. I fully appreciate there can be greater checks, a choice as to who enters etc. but this doesn't escape the fundamental point that migrant labour is necessary. We aren't going to interview and approve everyone who comes to work in catering or horticulture!

One interesting point which had not occurred to me but I instantly recognised as true was made by an employer in R4 this morning. His business is 50% permanent local labour and 50% seasonal migrant. He imports 50% of his materials from the EU and exports 50% of his production to the EU.

This employer made the very clear point that the seasonal works allow him to fulfill peak demand and therefore support employment of his permanent local staff.

As Yoda pointed out the migrant workers we need would be admitted by the points based system. That may not include the temp workers that you employ but if you cannot find Brits who will work for you I am sure that you could get temporary work permits. Although if you pay the wages I can't see why you can't get British temps.

[jim mk2]

So Jim these nasty greedy bankers with the big bonuses that are funding the remain campaign, mates of yours now? No more complaints or grumblings about them any more? yum yum champagne la socialist

Brexit has its attractions - the chance to land a punch on the nose of corporate Britain and the City of London in particular is very tempting I admit.

I'm looking at the bigger picture - the potential long term damage to the economy and employment, the probable rolling back of workers rights by a vindictive Tory government, the possible break up of the United Kingdom and the huge political risk that we'll end up with right wing lunatics such as Gove or Johnson in Number 10, and our certain diminished standing in the world as little England and Wales and N Ireland.

There's a phrase if it ain't broke don't fix it and although the EU isn't perfect by any means being a member has been hugely beneficial to this country and we will continue to have more to gain from part of the world's largest trading bloc than being Out

[Mike Graham]

Mate of mine owns a large plastics factory in the North West. He has worked his backside off to keep it going in the past and has paid wages from his own savings.

He is quite open in saying that he employs Eastern Europeans as he can get them to work harder for less money, they are driving down wages.

[Al]

Mate of mine owns a large plastics factory in the North West. He has worked his backside off to keep it going in the past and has paid wages from his own savings.

He is quite open in saying that he employs Eastern Europeans as he can get them to work harder for less money, they are driving down wages.

If he can't afford to pay proper wages he doesn't have a business and needs to do something about it. It's not a pleasant thing to do but he probably needs to downsize. Employing cheap foreign labour is not good for anybody except the foreigners. Certainly not for the owner who must be losing money if he is paying wages out of his own pocket.

[Biddy]

There's a phrase if it ain't broke don't fix it and although the EU isn't perfect by any means being a member has been hugely beneficial to this country and we will continue to have more to gain from part of the world's largest trading bloc than being Out

Isn't that one of the massive problems though. Even the remain camp say it is broken and does need fixing.

[RibbleValleyRover]

Postal ballot arrived this morning and I've just sent it off. It was an easy decision and a no brainer to vote the way I did and i'm glad I've done my part even though I fear the outcome is not going to be the one I believe is right for this country.

On a side note the information coming from Labour and their canvassing is not good, seems like a lot of Labour voters want to give Cameron and the government a kicking even though this decision is much more than a short-term one it's generational.

Isn't that one of the massive problems though. Even the remain camp say it is broken and does need fixing.

The EU will need further reform, but that can't happen if you have no voice and are looking in from the outside. The remain camp has said they will continue to push for reform and the country will use their veto if necessary on certain policies.

[Paul]

As Yoda pointed out the migrant workers we need would be admitted by the points based system. That may not include the temp workers that you employ but if you cannot find Brits who will work for you I am sure that you could get temporary work permits. Although if you pay the wages I can't see why you can't get British temps.

I think I've explained the position on migrant labour in horticulture three times so I won't bore people again. The simple fact is the UK labour force has moved away from this type of employment regardless of pay.

I'm not sure but believe most points based systems are directed towards skills based employment and not what could broadly be termed factory work.

Do we seriously want to introduce new layers of bureaucracy to employ hotel staff, pub workers, horticultural labour, baristas etc? This is primarily the type of labour which is filled by migrants. How on earth are these people going to be rated on a points system?

I really would be interested to discuss this because I've yet to see anything concrete from leave.

Priti Patel was making huge promises to all industries, organisations etc. currently receiving EU funding as to how at least equivalent funds would still be available in these areas. She must have been asked six times how could she promise this as its government which decides how to spend our money. She had no answer.

Do people not realise the leave campaign are making you promises which they cannot fulfill as they have no authority or power. If you believe the EU is selling us down the river just wait and see what happens if we do leave.

Pound is losing value

Stock market is below 6000

Great. Thought we had already had the market corrections?

[jim mk2]

Isn't that one of the massive problems though. Even the remain camp say it is broken and does need fixing.

No one denies there needs to be reform. The good thing is there is a growing consensus among members and a drive for change

Stock market is below 6000

Great. Thought we had already had the market corrections?

Stock market is beginning to price in a Brexit. Long way to go yet - 5000 - 5500 is my guess. Bad news for anyone with pensions and investments.

[T J Hooker]

maybe when we leave the eu we can give the rest of europe(and the world) the opportunity to apply to be in the common wealth.

Can we have an in/our vote added on here please?

[Mike Graham]

If he can't afford to pay proper wages he doesn't have a business and needs to do something about it. It's not a pleasant thing to do but he probably needs to downsize. Employing cheap foreign labour is not good for anybody except the foreigners. Certainly not for the owner who must be losing money if he is paying wages out of his own pocket.

He has a bloody good business Al. He kept it going when he had problems with invoices being paid and suppliers supplying raw materials that were unsuitable. He makes plenty of money now but on the back of a good product, good marketing and EU staff who are happy to work for less.

No one denies there needs to be reform. The good thing is there is a growing consensus among members and a drive for change

Stock market is beginning to price in a Brexit. Long way to go yet - 5000 - 5500 is my guess. Bad news for anyone with pensions and investments.

It is a good time to buy stocks.

[joey_big_nose]

maybe when we leave the eu we can give the rest of europe(and the world) the opportunity to apply to be in the common wealth

Um, do you know how the Commonwealth works? It is not a trading bloc, yet anyway. If we did want to use it as such partners in it would like access rights same as any trading bloc. Are Farage and boris going to be keener on Indian immigration than Romainian immigration?

The most noticeable thing about this debate is just how ill informed people are.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html

[Biddy]

No one denies there needs to be reform. The good thing is there is a growing consensus among members and a drive for change

Stock market is beginning to price in a Brexit. Long way to go yet - 5000 - 5500 is my guess. Bad news for anyone with pensions and investments.

Have you not also seen that the stock markets are being hit in US and many other EU countries today. That appears to be over fears of the Chinese economy today. So it's not just Brexit that s making an impact.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Do people not realise the leave campaign are making you promises which they cannot fulfill as they have no authority or power. If you believe the EU is selling us down the river just wait and see what happens if we do leave.

Do you not realise that importing a workforce to pay for pensions, then a generation later importing a bigger one to pay for that, then importing an even bigger one etc is an absolutely insane plan that will lead to mass overcrowding, the obliteration of the English countryside and a whole host of other overpopulation problems?

There are loads of things we can do to plug the Labour gap in certain industries without the need for mass immigration. Getting people off the dole by making it a thoroughly miserable existence where people are given the absolute minimum to survive and nothing more would be a good start. Reducing worker supply would also drive up wages in industries where there's a worker shortage, making them more attractive (your claim people wouldn't do it regardless of the pay is nonsense I'm afraid).

[jim mk2]

There's fears over the global economy too but the UK market's only just waking up to the fact Brexit might happen and has much farther to fall.

[Biddy]

I've added a Poll, hopefully using the same wording as the ballot paper and the vote should not be public.

[T J Hooker]

Um, do you know how the Commonwealth works?

no not really i was just being silly

[RibbleValleyRover]

Priti Patel was making huge promises to all industries, organisations etc. currently receiving EU funding as to how at least equivalent funds would still be available in these areas. She must have been asked six times how could she promise this as its government which decides how to spend our money. She had no answer.

Do people not realise the leave campaign are making you promises which they cannot fulfill as they have no authority or power. If you believe the EU is selling us down the river just wait and see what happens if we do leave.

Pound is losing value

Stock market is below 6000

Great. Thought we had already had the market corrections?

Priti knows there is going to be a coup against Cameron if leave win and a Leave campaigner is likely going to be favorite to get it (though my money would be in May as a unifying candidate) so she thinks she can promise all this stuff. I think someone called the Tories in the leave camp a 'government in waiting' over the weekend, maybe they are buying into that.

I can tell you now all that money (which is based on bogus leave figures, it's nowhere near as large as they say) isn't going to be spent on the NHS, Education and other parts of the public sector. The fact the Leave camp is promising it is dangerous and reckless.

[Al]

He has a bloody good business Al. He kept it going when he had problems with invoices being paid and suppliers supplying raw materials that were unsuitable. He makes plenty of money now but on the back of a good product, good marketing and EU staff who are happy to work for less.

Then he is profiting off the backs of imported labour and is depressing the wages of the British Workers. This is one of the reasons I want to stop cheap labour being imported.

It is a good time to buy stocks

Agreed.

It is not just the UK stock market that is down it is the Japanese too and when Wall Street opens that will be down too. It's worldwide and it is wrong to blame Brexit. After the referendum, whichever way it goes I predict a rise.

Paul. I believe that if your wage rates reflected the work they did you could employ British workers. If cheap foreign labour was not available you would HAVE to.

See post 907

[Paul]

Paul. I believe that if your wage rates reflected the work they did you could employ British workers. If cheap foreign labour was not available you would HAVE to.

See post 907

Al this is the second time you have made this inference and I would ask you do not do it again. We do and always have paid at least the minimum rates required by law and we do not employ cheap labour. We increased wages by 7.5% this year.

I'm discussing an industry which produces the food we eat. What I do is irrelevant except that I know the same issues are common across the sector.

If you want people to be paid more what increase in your weekly food bill are you prepared to pay? Keep in mind there was a 7.5% increase for all workers this year - anyone else get that? - and labour is the highest cost in food production.

Would you pay 25% more for your lettuce without complaint?

[ABBEY]

I only eat lettuce on a kebab or a big mac.

[Mike E]

Lettuce at Tesco is 43p. I'd pay 53p, no problem, lettuce goes a long way!