[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[Biddy]

I can't believe it's that cheap! Suppliers need to stand up to supermarkets to demand a decent price for their produce.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Al this is the second time you have made this inference and I would ask you do not do it again. We do and always have paid at least the minimum rates required by law and we do not employ cheap labour. We increased wages by 7.5% this year.

I'm discussing an industry which produces the food we eat. What I do is irrelevant except that I know the same issues are common across the sector.

If you want people to be paid more what increase in your weekly food bill are you prepared to pay? Keep in mind there was a 7.5% increase for all workers this year - anyone else get that? - and labour is the highest cost in food production.

Would you pay 25% more for your lettuce without complaint?

Could the government get involved more and subsidise industry? If companies are paying more to their workers then presumably the government is raising more in taxes.

Personally I'd prefer companies to take the hit anyway though as a general rule. I vote Tory but can't stand seeing businesses making record profits and/or paying out millions to senior management when the entry-level worker doesn't even get paid the living wage.

I know not all companies operate as such but as a general rule, I consider cheap immigrant labour to be a highly immoral cheat by the fatcats in society to get even fatter. It's exploiting the inequality of the world, businesses should pay a fair wage by the standards of this country, not some third world one. Of course they'll never have to whilst immigration continues apace.

[perthblue02]

Wonder if the big remain financial backers JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs and other financial institutions will reward all the Brits if Remain wins by reimbursing all the cash their actions lost people in their shares and pensions etc whilst they scammed the markets and made a fortune during the big financial collapse?

Surely these fine upstanding institutions only have the British population at heart by backing the remain campaign, don't you think?

Speaking of which here is a current story regarding one of them

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/13/goldman-sachs-hired-prostitutes-to-win-libyan-business-court-told?CMP=share_btn_fb

[Al]

Al this is the second time you have made this inference and I would ask you do not do it again. We do and always have paid at least the minimum rates required by law and we do not employ cheap labour. We increased wages by 7.5% this year.

I'm discussing an industry which produces the food we eat. What I do is irrelevant except that I know the same issues are common across the sector.

If you want people to be paid more what increase in your weekly food bill are you prepared to pay? Keep in mind there was a 7.5% increase for all workers this year - anyone else get that? - and labour is the highest cost in food production.

Would you pay 25% more for your lettuce without complaint?

Yes I would certainly pay more for home produced food and bedding plants if it meant that British labour was used to produce them. I have said before that I consider that British bedding plants and fruit and vegetables are cheap and I would not complain if I had to pay a little more. Same applies to milk. Sorry if you do not like people to know that you employ foreign labour. I'm sure however that you do not break the law.

[Steve Moss]

Cameron & Corbyn = Stay........this is frightening from two mad politicians

Boris & Patel = Leave........equally frightening from two dangerous politicians

What do the Venkys want and I will vote the opposite.

Does anyone have a clue as to what Venkys want, even Venkys?

[T J Hooker]

Yes I would certainly pay more for home produced food and bedding plants if it meant that British labour was used to produce them. I have said before that I consider that British bedding plants and fruit and vegetables are cheap and I would not complain if I had to pay a little more. Same applies to milk. Sorry if you do not like people to know that you employ imported labour. I'm sure however that you do not break the law.

sorry, genuine question, what do you you mean "imported labour"? do you mean these workers have been employed to travel from another country just to work on this job, then go back home to there country once the jobs up(or something like that!) If so that just isnt right in my book, there's plenty of local out of work people that would be happy and willing to do these jobs.

[JAL]

If Britain does come out of Europe can't it afford to grow the army navy and RAF from its current understrength position without having to borrow heavily. ?

[Al]

sorry, genuine question, what do you you mean "imported labour"? do you mean these workers have been employed to travel from another country just to work on this job, then go back home to there country once the jobs up(or something like that!) If so that just isnt right in my book, there's plenty of local out of work people that would be happy and willing to do these jobs.

Not sure. You would need to ask their employers. Maybe it would be better to say non UK labour. Which I believe is usual in that industry.

[T J Hooker]

Not sure. You would need to ask their employers.

you mentioned it, i just wanted to know what you meant!

[MCMC1875]

Looks like a right mix up next year, the like of which I've not seen in my lifetime. Likely Boris running the UK with Trump on one side and Putin with his state sponsored hooligans on the other. Seriously though Russia looking extremely right wing with echoes of the rise of the Nazis in 1930's Germany and ISIS on the sidelines. God help us!

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Looks like a right mix up next year, the like of which I've not seen in my lifetime. Likely Boris running the UK with Trump on one side and Putin with his state sponsored hooligans on the other. Seriously though Russia looking extremely right wing with echoes of the rise of the Nazis in 1930's Germany and ISIS on the sidelines. God help us!

Think that's a tad dramatic. It's fashionable in the west to like nothing more than grossly exaggerating our own shortcomings, but the reality is Boris and even Trump aren't even close to being as bad as the most moderate leader from the likes of Russia, China and the Middle East.

So really it's all about what they'll do. Well pervesely IS have come in some use for once, unsettling Russia and bringing China a bit closer to the West. A year ago Russia were invading Crimea and China's cyber-attacks in western companies were straining relations to breaking point. Now Russia have done nothing after a key US ally Turkey launched a military attack on them, and China and the UK have just agreed a huge trade deal.

IS themselves would of course by now be a major threat if it wasn't for the highly successful western bombing campaigns helping Iraq and Syria to drive them back. Things aren't too bad all in all, although I'm sure if another public spending cut is announced then we'll have another round of the world is ending.

[Paul]

sorry, genuine question, what do you you mean "imported labour"? do you mean these workers have been employed to travel from another country just to work on this job, then go back home to there country once the jobs up(or something like that!) If so that just isnt right in my book, there's plenty of local out of work people that would be happy and willing to do these jobs.

TJ the business I work for grows bedding plants. We use seasonal labour. My product is an irrelevance, we can all live without it, and I am discussing food production. I do use my own experience as an example as it allows me to bring real life knowledge to the discussion.

in horticulture, the industry under discussion which I have 43 years experience of, the bulk of labour - people who plant or harvest crops in fields and glasshouses - has always been termed "seasonal labour."

The term is seasonal because the company employs them during its cropping season. A strawberry grower has a different season from say a Brussels sprout grower.

Historically seasonal labour was British and frequently moved around the country following the crops. In the late 80s/early 90s this labour force began to disappear as people retired. It was replaced largely by Portugese labour. The Portugese labour disappeared as a result of Portugal's improved economy on joining the EU.

Today I think a reasonable estimate would be 90% of seasonal labour is from Eastern Europe. In most instances the labour is provided through employment agencies. In our case the same extended family travels from Poland every year to work for us. Three of the young people are now permanently employed in responsible positions in our business. We also use agency staff.

An historical note - in the 40s/50s East End families used to spend the summer in Kent hop picking. Same principle, different nationality.

The term imported labour is new to me and I suspect is used to continue the assertion this is cheap foreign labour exploited by uncaring employers.

it is almost impossible to find UK labour for this work. For us out of 30 this year one was British and prior to that person starting we made clear a permanent position was available if the person performed well.

Any UK grown fruit or vegetable you purchase will have been produced by migrant or seasonal labour. Without this labour the industry would collapse. If we leave the EU the industry will lobby government for dispensation to employ foreign labour. The industry will be successful in this and there will be no change in those migration numbers.

I'll leave you to decide if I with 43 years industrial experience can give you the truth or if others with no experience other than media headlines can help you.

The above is true of many industries though the detail will vary. The British labour force has changed and the labour once prepared to work in physically demanding jobs no longer exists. This is a result of many changes in our society but in my view is primarily driven by education and the resulting improved opportunities for local labour.

I don't know any employer in horticulture who would refuse to employ British labour. For one thing it would be a damn sight simpler.

As a country we have always undervalued the land industries - primarily agriculture and horticulture - and in the modern world are not prepared to pay the true value of the food we eat. If people believe these and other industries are exploitive it is immensely insulting to large numbers of hardworking responsible employers who put the food on our tables.

The real questions should be asked of Tesco, Sainsbury, Waitrose et al who fly fresh produce all around the world. Offer you milk at below production cost. Lettuce at 40p. Or perhaps the British public who demand strawberries at Christmas.

If employing Kenyan labour, for example, at rates hugely below the UK National Living Wage isn't exploitive I don't what is. People should think about this next time they buy mange tout in February. Which is more exploitive to ask third world labour to give its land over to growing food for Waitrose and Tesco when that same land could produce for the local market or to employ people from the EU who have chosen to come to the UK?

Next we could do clothing. No doubt everyone on here who criticises the use of non UK labour buys all their clothing from UK manufacturers and refuses to purchase from ANY of our leading clothes retailers.

Where does a £3 Tesco T shirt come from?

The hypocrisy on this subject stinks to high heaven and comes from people with no real knowledge of industry.

[T J Hooker]

brilliant post, thanks for takng the time to explain

and i totally agree with your points regarding the hypocrisy

[Al]

I fully agree with your points Paul, particularly the Tesco etc. comments. They are the pits and I would willingly pay a little more to allow the farmers etc. to make a decent living.

However the mange tout and clothing you refer to is, I think, grown and manufactured abroad rather than in this country.

Whilst I bow to your greater knowledge I can not understand why out of work Brits do not want to work in your industry if the wage rates are competitive.

I assure you that I am not a hypocrite but just concerned that wage rates in the UK are artificially kept low by EU labour.

You know your industry better than me so if you tell me that Brits will not do the work at decent rates then I have to believe you. It's just a pity that some Brits would rather be out of work than do seasonal work on the land.

[K-Hod]

I fully agree with your points Paul, particularly the Tesco etc. comments. They are the pits and I would willingly pay a little more to allow the farmers etc. to make a decent living.

However the mange tout and clothing you refer to is, I think, grown and manufactured abroad rather than in this country.

Whilst I bow to your greater knowledge I can not understand why out of work Brits do not want to work in your industry if the wage rates are competitive.

I assure you that I am not a hypocrite but just concerned that wage rates in the UK are artificially kept low by EU labour.

You know your industry better than me so if you tell me that Brits will not do the work at decent rates then I have to believe you. It's just a pity that some Brits would rather be out of work than do seasonal work on the land.

Without wanting to take this off topic too much, this is exactly why I get the absolute bare minimum from the supermarkets and always get my fruit and veg from the market/fruit and veg shop in Clayton. You'll notice how much bigger the lettuce you get from there is compared to the supermarket version!

[Dreyski]

It's just a pity that some Brits would rather be out of work than do seasonal work on the land.

It's partly the seasonal aspect of the work (short, zero hour contracts) and partly the benefits system in the UK making paid work less attractive. There was a documentary a while back where the presenter went to a job centre and said there was fruit picking work available to the locals. None took up the offer.

[Paul]

I fully agree with your points Paul, particularly the Tesco etc. comments. They are the pits and I would willingly pay a little more to allow the farmers etc. to make a decent living.

However the mange tout and clothing you refer to is, I think, grown and manufactured abroad rather than in this country.

Whilst I bow to your greater knowledge I can not understand why out of work Brits do not want to work in your industry if the wage rates are competitive.

I assure you that I am not a hypocrite but just concerned that wage rates in the UK are artificially kept low by EU labour.

You know your industry better than me so if you tell me that Brits will not do the work at decent rates then I have to believe you. It's just a pity that some Brits would rather be out of work than do seasonal work on the land.

It's the same for me Al. I don't understand why people won't work. Yes it is seasonal but it's possible to find employment at least ten months of the year. I know it's not great working in a muddy field on the Lancashire Mosses in winter but someone has to do it. When I was 19 I spent the whole winter pruning an orchard by hand. I've helped plant fields of cabbage by hand. I know because I've done it. On the plus side outdoors all spring and summer. That's better than a factory.

The money isn't great but the industry pays as a minimum National Living Wage £7.20 per hour or £15000 pa plus ovettime and bonuses usually based on a piece rate. All the usual employment protection is available. In the near future the hourly rate will be £9.00 or £18720 pa.

These rates are required by law. I'm sure there are some who flout them as in any industry. I am though very tired of reading on here and elsewhere nonsense about paying proper wages in an industry I've enjoyed all my life.

It's partly the seasonal aspect of the work (short, zero hour contracts) and partly the benefits system in the UK making paid work less attractive. There was a documentary a while back where the presenter went to a job centre and said there was fruit picking work available to the locals. None took up the offer.

You are quite right in this.

[perthblue02]

TJ the business I work for grows bedding plants. We use seasonal labour. My product is an irrelevance, we can all live without it, and I am discussing food production. I do use my own experience as an example as it allows me to bring real life knowledge to the discussion.

in horticulture, the industry under discussion which I have 43 years experience of, the bulk of labour - people who plant or harvest crops in fields and glasshouses - has always been termed "seasonal labour."

Sorry to cut you very informative post short Paul , but I am doing it just for saving thread space rather than quoting the full post.

The points you make are very relevant but with regards to the food /agriculture industry, in Australia the industry relies on people with working / working holiday visa's which stipulate or allow extensions if part of their time in the country is working in those particular industries you are involved with and does not require any free movement laws between any particular countries, so why can that not exist in the UK?

Same result without all the baggage of having to belong to a very expensive jolly club.

[Paul]

Without wanting to take this off topic too much, this is exactly why I get the absolute bare minimum from the supermarkets and always get my fruit and veg from the market/fruit and veg shop in Clayton. You'll notice how much bigger the lettuce you get from there is compared to the supermarket version!

Precisely. We buy our meat, chicken and eggs direct from a farm. Veg from Chorley market. Mik delivered by local dairy to the house. As a generalisation it's better and often cheaper. If I have to use a supermarket it's Booths because they source in the northwest and have a strong business ethic which they practice rather than preach.

[RibbleValleyRover]

Lowest unemployment rate since 2005 (5%) and yet the country looks like it's going to risk it all by voting to leave.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36536432

[T J Hooker]

It's the same for me Al. I don't understand why people won't work. Yes it is seasonal but it's possible to find employment at least ten months of the year. I know it's not great working in a muddy field on the Lancashire Mosses in winter but someone has to do it. When I was 19 I spent the whole winter pruning an orchard by hand. I've helped plant fields of cabbage by hand. I know because I've done it. On the plus side outdoors all spring and summer. That's better than a factory.

The money isn't great but the industry pays as a minimum National Living Wage £7.20 per hour or £15000 pa plus ovettime and bonuses usually based on a piece rate. All the usual employment protection is available. In the near future the hourly rate will be £9.00 or £18720 pa.

These rates are required by law. I'm sure there are some who flout them as in any industry. I am though very tired of reading on here and elsewhere nonsense about paying proper wages in an industry I've enjoyed all my life.

You are quite right in this.

id be happy to work outdoors for Minimum wage(beats having to work in a factory everyday looking at the same ugly faces all day and not seeing any daylight once the nights start drawing in) but my main issues would be transport, i live in the centre of Blackburn so how would i get out to these fields everyday without having to spend a massive portion of my wage on transport costs? ans also the lengthy amount of time it would take me to get to the sites and back home. i work a min wage factory job, and i can tolerate the low pay because its only a short drive to work each day so im not too put out. But i wouldnt be happy to work for minimum wage if getting to and from work was a big drudge and a massive financial strain, but as for the actual work its self id have no issues.

[Stuart]

Three things from me:

1) If we vote to stay in the EU at this referendum, will the UK be allowed to hold future referendums about important issues affecting British people? Or will we have to abide by all decisions taken by the EU "for the good of all"?

2) Paul, does the EU set a quota or upper limit on the number of bedding plants your company is allowed to grow, within your industry? Or the amount that you are allowed to sell to the market?

3) Also, here's a useful link if anyone is unsure how their priorities map onto their vote.

https://www.crowdpac.co.uk/eu-referendum-in-or-out

[Paul]

Three things from me:

1) If we vote to stay in the EU at this referendum, will the UK be allowed to hold future referendums about important issues affecting British people? Or will we have to abide by all decisions taken by the EU "for the good of all"?

2) Paul, does the EU set a quota or upper limit on the number of bedding plants your company is allowed to grow, within your industry? Or the amount that you are allowed to sell to the market?

3) Also, here's a useful link if anyone is unsure how their priorities map onto their vote.

https://www.crowdpac.co.uk/eu-referendum-in-or-out

2. No. I'll wait for the fishing question!!

[yoda]

2. No. I'll wait for the fishing question!!

What Geldof did today was laughable, sad type that he is.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

What Geldof did today was laughable, sad type that he is.

Did he take all those migrants he offered shelter to on the boat with him or leave them back at his house?