[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[yoda]

Did he take all those migrants he offered shelter to on the boat with him or leave them back at his house?

It's a rat trap and he's been caught

[jim mk2]

Three things from me:

1) If we vote to stay in the EU at this referendum, will the UK be allowed to hold future referendums about important issues affecting British people? Or will we have to abide by all decisions taken by the EU "for the good of all"?

2) Paul, does the EU set a quota or upper limit on the number of bedding plants your company is allowed to grow, within your industry? Or the amount that you are allowed to sell to the market?

3) Also, here's a useful link if anyone is unsure how their priorities map onto their vote.

https://www.crowdpac.co.uk/eu-referendum-in-or-out

We've had many referenda in my lifetime - including 10 while we've been members of the EU. Of course they will continue if needed

For all the big decisions that affect this country - including going to war - we have sovereignty despite what the Brexiteers claim

[adopted scouser]

It's partly the seasonal aspect of the work (short, zero hour contracts) and partly the benefits system in the UK making paid work less attractive. There was a documentary a while back where the presenter went to a job centre and said there was fruit picking work available to the locals. None took up the offer.

So stop their f*****g benefits ! Why should these shirkers be given free money when they have turned down the offer of work ?!

Why haven't we got leaders with a bit of backbone ?And for those who claim 'it's not as easy as that' - Yes it bl***y is

[Paul]

3) Also, here's a useful link if anyone is unsure how their priorities map onto their vote.

https://www.crowdpac.co.uk/eu-referendum-in-or-out

I got 75% in with identity at 87% bring my strongest point!

[MCMC1875]

What Geldof did today was laughable, sad type that he is.

None of his business, he's not effin British!!!!

[MCMC1875]

So stop their f*****g benefits ! Why should these shirkers be given free money when they have turned down the offer of work ?!

Why haven't we got leaders with a bit of backbone ?And for those who claim 'it's not as easy as that' - Yes it bl***y is

But that's 21st century Britain AS, nobody's got the will or the balls to do owt about it. As usual the 'working class' are paying for the idle poor and the idle rich!!!!!

[Stuart]

2. No. I'll wait for the fishing question!!

It was more... if you were forced to cap your sales to allow other European nations a 'fair' share would it change your opinion? Or would you happily sacrifice your livelihood for the greater good?

The ability to have sovereignty is very important to me. It would be helpful if this was clarified. The ability for my children to be able to get a job and their own home is also very important. The status quo isn't doing them much good for the foreseeable future. Well, not unless they leave the area.

[tomphil]

But that's 21st century Britain AS, nobody's got the will or the balls to do owt about it. As usual the 'working class' are paying for the idle poor and the idle rich!!!!!

They are beginning to call it the 'snowflake' generation but is it their fault or their peers and those in positions of power to make change. For every economic migrant coming to just get benefits there are 100 of our own lazy shirking little barestewards but they don't know any different.

We'd have had a case for not letting as many in years ago if something had been done about making youth work in some form whether they liked it or not. It's a huge mess that needs sorting and overcrowding the country with migrants isn't the answer. Maybe if we came out they'd then have to find a way to make them do something !

Do Venkys run this country ?

[jim mk2]

It was more... if you were forced to cap your sales to allow other European nations a 'fair' share would it change your opinion? Or would you happily sacrifice your livelihood for the greater good?

The ability to have sovereignty is very important to me. It would be helpful if this was clarified. The ability for my children to be able to get a job and their own home is also very important. The status quo isn't doing them much good for the foreseeable future. Well, not unless they leave the area.

We have sovereignty over every important decision - as pointed out earlier.

The rest is down to UK government policy and irrelevant to the EU debate.

[perthblue02]

Paul

Think you might have missed my question in response to your post regarding employees in your and the food industry,

Why does Britain have to be in the EU to grant work/working holiday visas to supply the food/agriculture and horticulture industries with labour?

It could also allow sponsorship visas where the company's could sponsor the employees so they are not a burden on the tax payer for x number of years again without being part of the EU.

So why is it important to be part of the EU for these circumstances?

General question. Why has the EU delayed publishing the EU budget proposals for 2017 which was due on the 25th of May. Surely such an important piece of information with regards to people making their mind up on if the membership fee for being part of the euro club is worth the money?

Makes you wonder why they are holding it back until the 27th of June, 4 days after the vote. Surely it can not be if the UK leaves they will have to redraw the budget because they will have this information already ready to publish as something like that would take a lot longer than 4 days to collate.

[Paul]

It was more... if you were forced to cap your sales to allow other European nations a 'fair' share would it change your opinion? Or would you happily sacrifice your livelihood for the greater good?

The ability to have sovereignty is very important to me. It would be helpful if this was clarified. The ability for my children to be able to get a job and their own home is also very important. The status quo isn't doing them much good for the foreseeable future. Well, not unless they leave the area.

As far as I'm aware there are no caps on sales. Have you got examples as this is news to me? Overall I would argue a cap on sales is a restriction of trade.

My view is we have not given up our sovereignty. EU law is passed by elected EU ministers and MEPs. The law is made by bureaucrats but it is passed by elected representatives. Pretty much what happens here.

I agree with your desire on our children's opportunities for work and housing and want the same for mine. However your post suggests you blame migrants for the situation. I would say the overall employment and housing issues result from numerous failures on our own part.

My house has increased in value by a ridiculous 13 times the original price. This is actually meaningless, it doesn't make me or anyone wealthy, it simply drives up the cost of home ownership and takes the possibility out of the hands of young people. It has little to do with migration but with historical demand in the 80s, 90s and 00s. I don't recall migrants being blamed for house price rises when we were all "enjoying" this increase in our "wealth."

As for the jobs market I feel moving is unavoidable these days. In this area the cause is more to do with the collapse of local industries than migration. You have to ask yourself why is there little industry in the area? Is this really the fault of migrants? I can't see how you could answer yes to the question.

[Stuart]

As far as I'm aware there are no caps on sales. Have you got examples as this is news to me? Overall I would argue a cap on sales is a restriction of trade.

My view is we have not given up our sovereignty. EU law is passed by elected EU ministers and MEPs. The law is made by bureaucrats but it is passed by elected representatives. Pretty much what happens here.

I agree with your desire on our children's opportunities for work and housing and want the same for mine. However your post suggests you blame migrants for the situation. I would say the overall employment and housing issues result from numerous failures on our own part.

My house has increased in value by a ridiculous 13 times the original price. This is actually meaningless, it doesn't make me or anyone wealthy, it simply drives up the cost of home ownership and takes the possibility out of the hands of young people. It has little to do with migration but with historical demand in the 80s, 90s and 00s. I don't recall migrants being blamed for house price rises when we were all "enjoying" this increase in our "wealth."

As for the jobs market I feel moving is unavoidable these days. In this area the cause is more to do with the collapse of local industries than migration. You have to ask yourself why is there little industry in the area? Is this really the fault of migrants? I can't see how you could answer yes to the question.

This is beyond pathetic, and only backs up the first refuge of the Remain voter: if you can't argue a point make the Leave debate about about migration.

Given your previous reply, I presumed that you knew about fishing quotas for different EU countries. Now you aren't aware of any examples.

The question was a hypothetical one: if the EU restricted business for your company, would you still be a Remain voter. Instead you dodge the question - and even throw migration at me! What a cliché. My issue with job was with the EU giving subsidies to companies to take their businesses out of the UK, thus losing jobs.

[Paul]

Paul

Think you might have missed my question in response to your post regarding employees in your and the food industry,

Why does Britain have to be in the EU to grant work/working holiday visas to supply the food/agriculture and horticulture industries with labour?

It could also allow sponsorship visas where the company's could sponsor the employees so they are not a burden on the tax payer for x number of years again without being part of the EU.

So why is it important to be part of the EU for these circumstances?.

No I didn't miss it and began responding twice but didn't post because I went off on a tangent both times.

Historically both Australian and UK governments have encouraged migration primarily to fill skills gaps at whatever level. I don't know the detail of the Australian points system to introduce skills the country needs but it seems a reasonable approach. When it comes to unskilled labour your geographic location, tough to get there and home again, makes it understandable a visa system is needed to ensure people only stay and work in the manner permitted.

I agree Britain does not have to be in the EU to have this type of labour available. Sponsorship systems have been used in the past. This is a key point to my argument that leaving the EU will not stop, it would introduce a small element of control, this type of immigration. The labour will still be required, and if you will accept my view British people don't want this type of work, government will have little choice other than to introduce a visa system.

That's fine with me, I don't have a problem with it, but I underline again it doesn't change the migration numbers. What it does do is introduce a new layer of bureaucracy and red tape by requiring visa applications, background checks etc. One argument raised against EU membership is to reduce red tape!

I don't understand your point re companies sponsoring labour to avoid burdening the tax payer. Anyone working legally is contributing financially to our economy. Is your thinking that migrant labour under a visa system would drain the NHS for example and companies should sponsor or foot the bill for this?

Overall I'm as concerned by migration as the next person. I do not though and thoroughly object to the blaming of migrants for our social ills. This country has always encouraged migration and at the same time blamed migrants - it's just a question of where they come from. My Ukranian father in law was WW2 refugee, his wife an Italian PAID by our government to come and work here.

We can't allow uncontrolled migration but there is a huge issue out there. Europe has tens of millions looking at her wealth and security who are prepared to flee while risking their lives to get here. These people are banging on our door and we have to find a way to stop it. The solution though is far deeper than Europe or the UK throwing up walls. We will only stop this by helping people achieve the same opportunities, safety and wealth in their own countries as we enjoy today.

I truly believe people voting out on the basis of migration, and this does seem to be the number one reason, are misguided and misinformed. If we leave the EU we will have no one to blame but ourselves for our economic collapse when it happens, which I believe it will. I expect though people will try to blame others if it happens.

I think people really have to experience industry import and export to fully understand its day to day importance.

I cannot emphasise enough how much I believe this or encourage people sufficiently to vote remain.

[philipl]

The economic and political crises which would follow a Brexit vote are understated.

One number nobody is mentioning is the 7% gap between goods and service Britain imports over what it exports.

That is real and has to be financed- the shock of a Brexit vote would dry up the money needed to pay for it.

The adjustment will come through a very big drop in the pound and suddenly everything, and I mean everything will become more expensive.

So vote Brexit to become at least 10% worse off and a huge leap in unemployment.

[joey_big_nose]

Three things from me:

1) If we vote to stay in the EU at this referendum, will the UK be allowed to hold future referendums about important issues affecting British people? Or will we have to abide by all decisions taken by the EU "for the good of all"?

https://www.crowdpac.co.uk/eu-referendum-in-or-out

The way I see it is there is likely to be referendums every 25 years or so, unless of course the EU becomes wildly popular..

The view often heard is that the referendum settles a question for a "generation".

[Mike E]

The economic and political crises which would follow a Brexit vote are understated.

One number nobody is mentioning is the 7% gap between goods and service Britain imports over what it exports.

That is real and has to be financed- the shock of a Brexit vote would dry up the money needed to pay for it.

The adjustment will come through a very big drop in the pound and suddenly everything, and I mean everything will become more expensive.

So vote Brexit to become at least 10% worse off and a huge leap in unemployment.

I admit to being a little mischievous here, but could one not argue that it's best to get out now before our dependence upon the EU (if it is as you describe above) before we become so dependent that we are completely tied in to a failed relationship?

If you're in an abusive relationship, you get out before you get killed.

[perthblue02]

Thanks Paul a very good read with your reply, again only not included to reduce thread in not quoting in full.

Yes a sponsorship visa would allow both the company and the employee the benefit of both being able to plan for x number of years and if the company retracted would still be liable for that employees time in the country. A sponsored employee would also become a temporary resident and entitled to health care etc and after x years able to apply as a permanent resident or citizen

Obviously in your line of work ,seasonal work etc people with working holiday visas would be expected to have their own insurance if they are not from a country that as a reciprocal health agreement.

Agree that the immigration topic is the one that a lot of people may be basing their judgement on and are including non eu immigration in the equation not understanding that the behind the scenes open door policy that Jack straw and friends introduced under the last Labour government added to that problem for that particular part of the equation. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html.

But in my opinion a more strict visa system for EU residents is what is needed to only allow what is needed into the country whether that be full working or holiday working visas, of course for non EU again the same system should apply and close the open door loop holes, but then again that is not an EU issue and can be done in or out. The added benefit is that you have a lot more control over who is actually allowed into the country. I would assume that the above would be a lot easier to bring into force without the interference of the EU.

Obviously the UK has some exclusions as it currently stands Schengen zone for one, and I suppose it all comes down to if you trust that will not be changed in the future.

The fact that both EU and Non EU immigration is lumped together is in my opinion the fault of those who suppress the debate on the issue , so if it is a major factor in peoples choice and it is an exit vote, those people who suppress debate need to look at themselves very closely and wonder why people have a mis-understanding.

As for red tape and additional cost I would make a rational guess that the expense would be offset as most of the tools/staffing are already in place for dealing with non EU migrants but would need expansion and one system applying to all non UK residents will simplify the process.

Oh dear me, just seen the footage and news stories of Geldof and his "party of the working class" friends, made himself look a bit of a dick didn't he. A few more votes to leave for that one.

[T J Hooker]

i wonder if this hreads poll will be reflective of how tight the eu vote is going to be

[perthblue02]

i wonder if this hreads poll will be reflective of how tight the eu vote is going to be

I think it is going to be, might go down to a late own goal by one of the sides.

Been talking about it with family back home over the last week or so, surprising in the split even in that small sample group, 3 in 4 out, 1 undecided , all in's are 30 or under , 5 out of the group could be classed as 99% Labour voters and 3 floating voters

Think what will be very interesting will be the fall out amongst members of the same political parties afterwards whichever way it goes as I honestly think its not just the conservatives were the knives will be out

[Mike E]

It's a strange split amongst the people I'm close to.

In my close family (5 rovers and 1 wigan), we quite literally have one supporter of each of the Tories, Labour, UKIP, LibDems, Plaid Cymru, and SNP. All voting or at least leaning to (could change) OUT.

My girlfriend's family, all Tories and all @#/? DINGLES voting IN.

It's going to be a fascinating cross-section to look at whatever the result. Despite all the scare-mongering, I don't believe a vote either way will affect your average joe all that much. In the same way changes in Government don't result in the country's imminent death as we're promised at every election.

[ABBEY]

It's a strange split amongst the people I'm close to.

In my close family (5 rovers and 1 wigan), we quite literally have one supporter of each of the Tories, Labour, UKIP, LibDems, Plaid Cymru, and SNP. All voting or at least leaning to (could change) OUT.

My girlfriend's family, all Tories and all @#/? DINGLES voting IN.

It's going to be a fascinating cross-section to look at whatever the result. Despite all the scare-mongering, I don't believe a vote either way will affect your average joe all that much. In the same way changes in Government don't result in the country's imminent death as we're promised at every election.

WTF DUDE

[Mike E]

forgive me, Abs!

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

i wonder if this hreads poll will be reflective of how tight the eu vote is going to be

Tough one to call but I suspect the thread's poll to be more favourable to the Leave vote than the full referendum will be. Mainly because blokes are more likely to sit on the right of the political spectrum than women which on the whole tends to be more anti-EU.

Although the factor perhaps going the other way is that Blackburn is a very working class town which has been solidly Labour since forever.

[T J Hooker]

half the people on here don't seem to live in blackburn though, also i find the tone of a lot of posters on here seems to be slightly more middle class

[perthblue02]

half the people on here don't seem to live in blackburn though, also i find the tone of a lot of posters on here seems to be slightly more middle class

You can leave Blackburn but Blackburn never leaves you