[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[Mattyblue]

I can imagine it will be a much higher turnout that 50%. Even the Tooting by election last night was 43%

[Biddy]

If the referendum result is very, very close - say 51 out and 49 in on a low, 50%, turn out - there is a good argument only 25% of the people want out and MPs should act in the interest of the 75%.

It wouldn't be in the interest of the remaining 75% though, it would be in the interest of the 24% that voted to remain. The other 50% would have chosen to have no voice.

I have also read that the result isn't 100% binding and that it has to pass further legislation (or words to that effect). This potentially opens up a whole new can of worms. Do politicians dare to block the bill which would be wholly undemocratic. OR, could the government go back to Brussels, say "see, the people are serious, now lets have a proper discussion so that we have a better deal to remain" and then potentially have another referendum on that deal. Is that even possible?

[K-Hod]

Yup, the Bremainers will be rubbing their hands with glee after this sacrifice.

That and a couple of other posts I've seen are an absolute disgrace. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

[Paul]

Always in the small print.

This is why people hate politics and distrust politicians.

So if we vote Remain it's all smiles and we move on. If we vote Leave, let's have another go.

I don't think this is a reason to say why people distrust politicians. UK referendums aren't binding on Parliament and as far as I know never have been.

As for the other bit. Yep! Suits me. 😀 (Tongue in cheek)

[Paul]

It wouldn't be in the interest of the remaining 75% though, it would be in the interest of the 24% that voted to remain. The other 50% would have chosen to have no voice.

I have also read that the result isn't 100% binding and that it has to pass further legislation (or words to that effect). This potentially opens up a whole new can of worms. Do politicians dare to block the bill which would be wholly undemocratic. OR, could the government go back to Brussels, say "see, the people are serious, now lets have a proper discussion so that we have a better deal to remain" and then potentially have another referendum on that deal. Is that even possible?

First paragraph I agree but was trying to get away with that one!

On the second is it undemocratic? To ignore the result of the referendum could be undemocratic but if only a small % of the electorate win with an out vote do our MPs have a democratic responsibility to represent what they believe to be our best interests?

I like the idea of going to Brussels and arguing people are serous but suspect Brussels would view it as setting a precedent.

Vote remain to avoid finding out! 😀

[only2garners]

I've been contemplating a different scenario in the event of a vote to leave. Paul is right that any referendum is not binding but I can't see it being politically acceptable to deliberately flaunt the wishes of the people.

But whatever happens there will be a period of up to two years before we actually leave the EU. And I expect all those two years to be used - when do EU negotiations ever not run right up to the wire?

I fully expect there to be an adverse effect on the economy of a vote to leave. I don't believe it will be as extreme as some on the remain side have been claiming but I suspect it will be enough to tip an already wobbling economy into recession. In two years time if the economy is faltering, if we have a pound much reduced in value, inflation in many imported goods, I can see the mood of the public being very different than it is now. I can see either another referendum to approve or not whatever deal is agreed with the EU, or maybe a general election on the issue. Any deal made with the EU to keep us in the single market will mean us having to concede the free movement of people, which seems to be the most important issue for many leave voters.

[yoda]

First paragraph I agree but was trying to get away with that one!

On the second is it undemocratic? To ignore the result of the referendum could be undemocratic but if only a small % of the electorate win with an out vote do our MPs have a democratic responsibility to represent what they believe to be our best interests?

I like the idea of going to Brussels and arguing people are serous but suspect Brussels would view it as setting a precedent.

Vote remain to avoid finding out!

Is there anyone in the country that does not know there is a referendum coming up.

It is a bit rich for the remainers to assume that people who choose not to vote are remainers.

Trying to fudge the figures and find loopholes in the process like you have in recent posts smacks of desperation.

This referendum is a chance for the population to let parliament know how they feel, in or out. not an exercise in elected MP's getting on their high horses and saying that is not my choice.

To many MP's get elected on promises of what they want to do and subsequently don't deliver.

You are just proving to me that you want democracy on your terms, like a few others on here.

[K-Hod]

Not sure how you've arrived at that point based on Paul's post, Yoda tbh.

[Al]

Moving back to the referendum itself. I read an article in the London Standard developing a thought which I've had for sometime.

The referendum result is not legally binding.

It seems increasingly likely a leave win will see Cameron ousted, hopefully the government defeated and a general election. If this happens I would want to see those who support remain, from whichever party, stand on a ticket which makes clear if elected as an MP they oppose EU exit.

Our MPs are representatives and not delegates. This allows them to act in the way they feel best represents our interests. Delegates don't have the same freedom. Currently around 70% of MPs are remain supporters. If Leave win and Cameron triggers article 50 he has to put this before both parliament and the Lords. If the referendum result is very, very close - say 51 out and 49 in on a low, 50%, turn out - there is a good argument only 25% of the people want out and MPs should act in the interest of the 75%.

Quite right Paul but my candidate would have to support a leave campaign. This is more important than party politics.

[Norbert Rassragr]

A fair number of museums, parks and cultural establishments may find it difficult as a pretty large amount of funding comes from the EU when they need to refurbish, extend and/or keep running. local councils won't be able to make up the shortfall, and national government won't be willing to fund anything that doesn't give money to private companies. So if Blackburn ever had plans to redevelop it's town centre in order to try and make it more commercially attractive there would be no EU funding if we left, and the cost would come entirely out of local government, or a grant from Westminster.

And there may be a Tory coup that'll see an even more frightening government led by Johnson, Gove, IDS and May. They can do a lot of damage in 2 and a 1/2 years, and OCP will probably buy the police and the court system, which will be out of our reach because of costs.

[yoda]

A fair number of museums, parks and cultural establishments may find it difficult as a pretty large amount of funding comes from the EU when they need to refurbish, extend and/or keep running. local councils won't be able to make up the shortfall, and national government won't be willing to fund anything that doesn't give money to private companies. So if Blackburn ever had plans to redevelop it's town centre in order to try and make it more commercially attractive there would be no EU funding if we left, and the cost would come entirely out of local government, or a grant from Westminster.

And there may be a Tory coup that'll see an even more frightening government led by Johnson, Gove, IDS and May. They can do a lot of damage in 2 and a 1/2 years, and OCP will probably buy the police and the court system, which will be out of our reach because of costs.

Blackburn is in the process of redeveloping it's town centre, can you not see it from where you are ?

[philipl]

I think that's your worst post on the topic to date. This really is a threat to your way of life, isn't it.

This is a democracy. The real issue will be if this horrendous crime is used to influence the debate.

I didn't think it would be so soon.

It is fair that I should seek to protect the work and income of my colleagues who don't have the freedom I have.

This is a pretty fair assessment: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/european-union-referendum-nine-out-of-ten-university-staff-back-remain

Yes Brexit is a threat to the quality of ALL our lives, not just mine.

As things stand I cannot see any way the campaigns could resume in safety now.

[yoda]

It is fair that I should seek to protect the work and income of my colleagues who don't have the freedom I have.

This is a pretty fair assessment: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/european-union-referendum-nine-out-of-ten-university-staff-back-remain

Yes Brexit is a threat to the quality of ALL our lives, not just mine.

As things stand I cannot see any way the campaigns could resume in safety now.

That would be giving in to any psycho, anarchist, terrorist and anyone else who wanted to disrupt democracy and our values that our parents and ancestors fought for.

[Stuart]

That would be giving in to any psycho, anarchist, terrorist and anyone else who wanted to disrupt democracy and our values that our parents and ancestors fought for.

Exactly. Philip's suggestion is the very antithesis of a democracy.

Is there anyone in the country that does not know there is a referendum coming up.

It is a bit rich for the remainers to assume that people who choose not to vote are remainers.

Trying to fudge the figures and find loopholes in the process like you have in recent posts smacks of desperation.

This referendum is a chance for the population to let parliament know how they feel, in or out. not an exercise in elected MP's getting on their high horses and saying that is not my choice.

To many MP's get elected on promises of what they want to do and subsequently don't deliver.

You are just proving to me that you want democracy on your terms, like a few others on here.

They don't care enough to change it though.

[Paul]

Is there anyone in the country that does not know there is a referendum coming up.

It is a bit rich for the remainers to assume that people who choose not to vote are remainers.

Trying to fudge the figures and find loopholes in the process like you have in recent posts smacks of desperation.

This referendum is a chance for the population to let parliament know how they feel, in or out. not an exercise in elected MP's getting on their high horses and saying that is not my choice.

To many MP's get elected on promises of what they want to do and subsequently don't deliver.

You are just proving to me that you want democracy on your terms, like a few others on here.

You seem to have missed the point entirely. I'm certainly not desperate or looking for democracy on my terms.

My point is this. If the vote is out I think Cameron will be finished. One of two things will happen; Johnson, Gove et al simply takeover and we have 2.5 years of their leadership or the government is defeated in parliament - this would force a general election.

70% of MPs are said to be in favour of Remain. In the event of a general election I would hope those MPs who favour Remain would run on that ticket. I would want them to state if you elect me I will vote against leaving the EU when the bill comes before parliament. There is nothing undemocratic about that. It's a different situation from today.

My earlier posts were largely thinking out loud of what may happen in the weeks ahead. An out vote is going to cause chaos and it's hard for anyone to predict where we will end up.

If our MPs have principles, despite the popular view they don't all have their snouts in the trough, in the event of an election the 70% who believe in Remain should stand up and fight an election on that basis.

[perthblue02]

Surely a vote for remain by an MP ( I would not say all as there are some with a moral compass) is driven towards possibly getting their noses in the big EU trough in the future, bit like Kinnock and his family and many others, not to mention carrying out what the remain backers want which will no doubt have its own benefits for them. I would hazard a guess and based on past actions Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan do not have the best interests of you or me in mind.

If an MP's constituancy votes leave and they have supported remain I would expect them to step down if they do not press for the wishes of their constituancy in the scenario you stated after the vote.The same if the situation is the other way round

[Paul]

Just as another thought. I strongly believe the out vote is based purely on immigration. I feel making a choice on one perceived problem is regrettable.

Some Sunderland residents were interviewed recently on their voting intentions. They intended to vote out. When asked why the response was immigration. When asked if there are many migrants in Sunderland or if migration to the area is a problem their answer was "No but it is down south"

I find that extraordinary. Northeast voters basing their vote on something which is not a problem for them. Just goes to show what the politics of fear can achieve.

Surely a vote for remain by an MP is driven towards possibly getting their noses in the big EU trough in the future, bit like Kinnock and his family and many others, not to mention carrying out what the remain backers want which will no doubt have its own benefits for them

I think the counter argument to this is two words. Jo Cox.

I was only vaguely aware of her until yesterday. By all accounts she was an absolute star. I'd suggest Jo was far more typical of our MPs than Kinnock and others.

[perthblue02]

Just as another thought. I strongly believe the out vote is based purely on immigration. I feel making a choice on one perceived problem is regrettable.

Some Sunderland residents were interviewed recently on their voting intentions. They intended to vote out. When asked why the response was immigration. When asked if there are many migrants in Sunderland or if migration to the area is a problem their answer was "No but it is down south"

I find that extraordinary. Northeast voters basing their vote on something which is not a problem for them. Just goes to show what the politics of fear can achieve.

I think the counter argument to this is two words. Jo Cox.

I was only vaguely aware of her until yesterday. By all accounts she was an absolute star. I'd suggest Jo was far more typical of our MPs than Kinnock and others.

Yes i was editing my post and only saw yours after i posted my edit , not particularly regarding Jo Cox but there are some who do have a moral compass

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Just as another thought. I strongly believe the out vote is based purely on immigration. I feel making a choice on one perceived problem is regrettable.

Some Sunderland residents were interviewed recently on their voting intentions. They intended to vote out. When asked why the response was immigration. When asked if there are many migrants in Sunderland or if migration to the area is a problem their answer was "No but it is down south"

I find that extraordinary. Northeast voters basing their vote on something which is not a problem for them. Just goes to show what the politics of fear can achieve.

Purely on immigration? Surely there's been plenty of evidence throughout the campaigns to show the Leave vote care about more than just immigration. There are plenty of people voting leave on the basis of a British government being able to allocate our own money more correctly than a European one. And the powerful cabal in Brussels having been neither elected nor being open to any kind of democratic challenge.

As for your second point, I'm sorry but that's utterly ridiculous. The percebtage of ethnic minorities living in this country doubled between the 2001 and 2011 census'. There is absolutely nothing to suggest it won't double again by 2021. In fact, with record immigration year on year and the vastly imbalanced birth rates, I'd be amazed if the demographic change doesn't just get faster and faster.

20 years ago Audley in Blackburn was mainly white. By your deduction, it's residents had no right to care about immigration. Now it is entirely Asian. From the population of London being mainly non-white to the likes of towns like Blackburn and Leicester guaranteed to follow, the demographic change in English society will be vast in the next 50 years and eventually will cover the whole of England.

Whether this is a bad thing, a good thing, or has ekemebrs of both is a whole other discussion, but your claim people aren't allowed to care about it because it doesn't affect them YET is bizarre.

[yoda]

You seem to have missed the point entirely. I'm certainly not desperate or looking for democracy on my terms.

My point is this. If the vote is out I think Cameron will be finished. One of two things will happen; Johnson, Gove et al simply takeover and we have 2.5 years of their leadership or the government is defeated in parliament - this would force a general election.

70% of MPs are said to be in favour of Remain. In the event of a general election I would hope those MPs who favour Remain would run on that ticket. I would want them to state if you elect me I will vote against leaving the EU when the bill comes before parliament. There is nothing undemocratic about that. It's a different situation from today.

My earlier posts were largely thinking out loud of what may happen in the weeks ahead. An out vote is going to cause chaos and it's hard for anyone to predict where we will end up.

If our MPs have principles, despite the popular view they don't all have their snouts in the trough, in the event of an election the 70% who believe in Remain should stand up and fight an election on that basis.

The referendum is not about how many MP's are in favour of staying in or leaving the EU though, it is a direct question the those eligible to vote, stay in or leave. it's not a 1st past the post election, not even PR, just a straight vote and the side with the most votes wins, real democracy.

(not sure what happens if it is a tie!)

[Stuart]

The referendum is a bit of a damp squib, waste of everyone's time, and a political albatross if the result doesn't count for anything and MPs ultimately decide anyway.

It will make every future referendum null and void and the government and political system in tatters.

A 70:30 Leave vote turned into a 70:30 Remain parliamentary decision could lead to riots.

[perthblue02]

The referendum is a bit of a damp squib, waste of everyone's time, and a political albatross if the result doesn't count for anything and MPs ultimately decide anyway.

It will make every future referendum null and void and the government and political system in tatters.

A 70:30 Leave vote turned into a 70:30 Remain parliamentary decision could lead to riots.

Wait till the 2017 Euro budget proposal that has been purposely delayed, gets published three days after the vote , no doubt the remains will have their excuses ready for all that extra cash Britain will no doubt be chucking in.

http://www.politico.eu/article/commission-delays-eu-budget-proposal-until-after-brexit-vote-britain-eu-budget/

They have form in holding back things when is it not in their interests for people to know about it

http://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-presses-brexit-hold-button-uk-referendum-campaign-eu-legislation/

Not very democratic is it to suppress debate on such an important issue?

[Al]

A fair number of museums, parks and cultural establishments may find it difficult as a pretty large amount of funding comes from the EU when they need to refurbish, extend and/or keep running. local councils won't be able to make up the shortfall, and national government won't be willing to fund anything that doesn't give money to private companies. So if Blackburn ever had plans to redevelop it's town centre in order to try and make it more commercially attractive there would be no EU funding if we left, and the cost would come entirely out of local government, or a grant from Westminster.

And there may be a Tory coup that'll see an even more frightening government led by Johnson, Gove, IDS and May. They can do a lot of damage in 2 and a 1/2 years, and OCP will probably buy the police and the court system, which will be out of our reach because of costs.

What else are the remain lobby going to think up to try to convince people to vote their way?

It is fair that I should seek to protect the work and income of my colleagues who don't have the freedom I have.

This is a pretty fair assessment: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/european-union-referendum-nine-out-of-ten-university-staff-back-remain

Yes Brexit is a threat to the quality of ALL our lives, not just mine.

As things stand I cannot see any way the campaigns could resume in safety now.

Not prepared to subscribe to read your propaganda.

[yoda]

What else are the remain lobby going to think up to try to convince people to vote their way?

The Martians will invade planet earth

[perthblue02]

This site seems to give a pretty balanced non bias view on the UK funding within the EU and other things regarding the EU for those still making their minds up

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

In their about page it states

Full Fact is the UK’s independent, non-partisan, fact checking charity. We check claims made by politicians, the media, pressure groups, and other voices in public debate, and push for corrections where necessary.