[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[yoda]

This site seems to give a pretty balanced non bias view on the UK funding within the EU and a other things regarding the EU for those still making their minds up

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

In their about page it states

Full Fact is the UK’s independent, non-partisan, fact checking charity. We check claims made by politicians, the media, pressure groups, and other voices in public debate, and push for corrections where necessary.

So it actually costs the UK £23 million a day after rebates etc,

interesting

[perthblue02]

So it actually costs the UK £23 million a day after rebates etc,

interesting

The fact checking of things said on Question time are good reading (they are spread throughout the various subjects), Ive bookmarked the site as there is a hell of a lot to read on there that is of interest.

One thing that is evident already as if we did not already know, never trust a politician

[Norbert Rassragr]

Especially one after the top job like Mr. Johnson.

[joey_big_nose]

Just as another thought. I strongly believe the out vote is based purely on immigration. I feel making a choice on one perceived problem is regrettable.

Some Sunderland residents were interviewed recently on their voting intentions. They intended to vote out. When asked why the response was immigration. When asked if there are many migrants in Sunderland or if migration to the area is a problem their answer was "No but its a problem down south.

A quote from Jo Cox's husband.

"

In the US, UK and France, young people (18-34) are between three and four times more supportive than older people. In addition, people who know refugees and immigrants are much more likely to be supportive of them and of migration as a whole.

As our societies become more diverse and immigration reaches more communities, more communities are likely to become less prejudiced and more supportive. Like the battle for LGBT rights, there could be a tipping point when debates stop being abstract and start to be based on personal experience."

[Norbert Rassragr]

What else are the remain lobby going to think up to try to convince people to vote their way?

Not prepared to subscribe to read your propaganda.

I'm not dreaming it up, it is a fact that the EU does back a reasonable amount of redevelopment in these areas, and the money would have to come from somewhere for this to continue. For example, Coventry Transport Museum has had a very big refurbishment which received a grant from the EU. Without it, it would not have happened. Museums all across the country have been battered since 2008, as that is the first place councils go for cuts.

I was putting that FACT across as something else to ponder about, as it is an aspect that the likes of the Daily Mail do not cover. Obviously subtlety is lost on you as you are filled with Gravy Train Farage's nonsense and rubbish so I will spell out my position clearly. I do not like the EU as it stands, it is inefficient, unwieldy, undemocratic and can't sort itself out. I would vote out if we were not ruled by a corrupt, heartless, vile group of politicians who sell the country down the river for their public school mates and foreigners, and the French and Germans would probably stick the knife in by raising big tariffs on our goods.

So therefore, the EU is the lesser of two pretty big evils. Understand?

[perthblue02]

I'm not dreaming it up, it is a fact that the EU does back a reasonable amount of redevelopment in these areas, and the money would have to come from somewhere for this to continue. For example, Coventry Transport Museum has had a very big refurbishment which received a grant from the EU. Without it, it would not have happened. Museums all across the country have been battered since 2008, as that is the first place councils go for cuts.

I was putting that FACT across as something else to ponder about, as it is an aspect that the likes of the Daily Mail do not cover. Obviously subtlety is lost on you as you are filled with Gravy Train Farage's nonsense and rubbish so I will spell out my position clearly. I do not like the EU as it stands, it is inefficient, unwieldy, undemocratic and can't sort itself out. I would vote out if we were not ruled by a corrupt, heartless, vile group of politicians who sell the country down the river for their public school mates and foreigners, and the French and Germans would probably stick the knife in by raising big tariffs on our goods.

So therefore, the EU is the lesser of two pretty big evils. Understand?

Why have two big evils when you can just have one that is directly elected or voted out by the people it is supposed to represent and at a cost saving?

Regarding the vile group of Politicians who sell the country down the river to their public school mates and foreigners (and don't forget bankers,,) I hope you are including the last Labour government in that as well as the current Tories and recent LIB Tory pact, as above why want two sets of evils when one will do

If you think the current Government are bad fair enough , a exit vote could be the catalyst for major shake ups in the two big parties and who knows could lead to a snap election.,Then if Labour get in they will have no problem funding the things you mentioned with all that extra cash that would have been given to the EU.

Of course the Germans and French are going to throw their toys out of the pram , their dream of a Euroreich is in tatters and will be even more if one of the big contributors comes out, leaving them to pick up the shortfall, and will possibly see other countries raise serious questions and possibly push for their own referendums. They are afraid that as two of the biggest contributors they will have to sell an increase in funding to the euro club to their own people to fund a host of countries , with another not very popular one due to come on board within the next few years.

The European Union is not as united as those that are supposed to represent their people would have you believe.

One thing is certain is that the EU have stated they are going to need an extra 20 billion that they had not previously budgeted for in the next couple of years.

Lets face it if what was sold to the British people in the original vote in the 70's was adhered to people would not be as angry about what it has turned into and successive Governments have failed to sell or justify the Euro Club and allowed it to snowball into the monster it is, without up until now despite promises allowing the British people to vote on it. In some cases certain parties have ignored the feeling and crushed debate amongst their traditional voters on certain issues in the quest to be part of the social union or implement their skewed ideology, hence a big backlash and blurring of some issues .

Even now there is no guarantee that any opt out Britain has, will be maintained if we remain especially if they have the green light of a remain vote to fall back on and could easily be included in a negotiation package. Although a big leave vote with a remain win could strengthen Britain's role in negotiating because Germany and France do not want Britain to leave for their own reasons.

So it could be argued that the uncertainty of an exit vote is only slightly more uncertain of a remain vote, particularly as the EU have decided to hold off pushing through some new proposals and legislation and also delayed the 2017 budget proposals until after the vote. You have to ask yourself in who's interest is that being done and why do they not think the British people need the facts of what is planed in the future before making a judgement?

Unfortunately nobody can be certain what is going to happen in the future but it is important to vote whichever way you decided.

[philipl]

That would be giving in to any psycho, anarchist, terrorist and anyone else who wanted to disrupt democracy and our values that our parents and ancestors fought for.

Why should people who are entirely voluntary be expected to face the level of abusive language and threats of physical violence?

It is great being an armchair warrior but are you out there knocking on doors inviting people to vote for your point of view?

[yoda]

Why should people who are entirely voluntary be expected to face the level of abusive language and threats of physical violence?

It is great being an armchair warrior but are you out there knocking on doors inviting people to vote for your point of view?

You seem to have lost the plot.

Where have I ever suggested that people should be subjected to abusive language (A La Gob Beldof) and threats of physical violence.

The armchair warrior jibe is pathetic, I thought you were more intelectual than that Philip. you have sunk to the same level as a few others on here just because some polls suggest that the result may not be what YOU want.

Unlike you I can live and get on with life whatever the result because I understand democracy.

[K-Hod]

My major concern based on what I've seen online is vote leave winning, then the NHS getting privatised. I've just got a horrible feeling it's what will happen. Hope it isn't, but I feel like it will.

[Al]

I'm not dreaming it up, it is a fact that the EU does back a reasonable amount of redevelopment in these areas, and the money would have to come from somewhere for this to continue. For example, Coventry Transport Museum has had a very big refurbishment which received a grant from the EU. Without it, it would not have happened. Museums all across the country have been battered since 2008, as that is the first place councils go for cuts.

I was putting that FACT across as something else to ponder about, as it is an aspect that the likes of the Daily Mail do not cover. Obviously subtlety is lost on you as you are filled with Gravy Train Farage's nonsense and rubbish so I will spell out my position clearly. I do not like the EU as it stands, it is inefficient, unwieldy, undemocratic and can't sort itself out. I would vote out if we were not ruled by a corrupt, heartless, vile group of politicians who sell the country down the river for their public school mates and foreigners, and the French and Germans would probably stick the knife in by raising big tariffs on our goods.

So therefore, the EU is the lesser of two pretty big evils. Understand?

Of course I understand I'm not thick. What you are trying to say but it's just another scare tactic. Without the contribution to the EU there would be money to fund this sort of thing ourselves.

[yoda]

My major concern based on what I've seen online is vote leave winning, then the NHS getting privatised. I've just got a horrible feeling it's what will happen. Hope it isn't, but I feel like it will.

If vote leave win the likelyhood is an election, Labour could then prevent that scenario

[jim mk2]

My major concern based on what I've seen online is vote leave winning, then the NHS getting privatised. I've just got a horrible feeling it's what will happen. Hope it isn't, but I feel like it will.

It's the wider consequences of a Brexit that are the big concern - the huge risks to the economy; the break-up of the United Kingdom and yes, the likelihood that the right wing of the Conservative party will take over from a relative centrist such as Cameron and start to attack the NHS, workers rights and many other targets they had had in their sights for years. Gove and Hunt have stated publicly they want to privatise the health service - a Brexit vote could see the Neoliberal agenda of the past 30 years to dismantle the British state come to its ultimate conclusion.

[Guest]

I want the UK to be part of the future and the world, not aloof from it. I'm not old enough to appreciate warm beer, the Empire, or Bisto nostalgia. Nobody can change my mind, and I don't intend to do what most do by p*ssing the other side off in a bizarre attempt to change theirs. All the skullduggery has taken place. It's done. Let's now get our votes in and see how much we Bremain by.

[jim mk2]

If vote leave win the likelyhood is an election, Labour could then prevent that scenario

Why is an election likely ? The Tories will simply oust Cameron in the same way they ditched Thatcher.

I want the UK to be part of the future and the world, not aloof from it. I'm not old enough to appreciate warm beer, the Empire, or Bisto nostalgia. Nobody can change my mind, and I don't intend to do what most do by p*ssing the other side off in a bizarre attempt to change theirs. All the skullduggery has taken place. It's done. Let's now get our votes in and see how much we Bremain by.

Correct.

The choice next Thursday is between an open or a closed Britain; between an outward facing or an inward-facing one; between the past and the future, which is why the vast majority of the under-25s want to Remain.

[yoda]

Why is an election likely ? The Tories will simply oust Cameron in the same way they ditched Thatcher.

Correct.

The choice next Thursday is between an open or a closed Britain; between an outward facing or an inward-facing one; between the past and the future, which is why the vast majority of the under-25s want to Remain.

If Cameron is ousted do you not think that Labour could muster enough votes to get vote of no confidance ?

Is wanting to trade with the rest of the world, 7.4 billion people, not more outward looking than limiting ourselves to just 500 million people ?

[perthblue02]

I want the UK to be part of the future and the world, not aloof from it. I'm not old enough to appreciate warm beer, the Empire, or Bisto nostalgia. Nobody can change my mind, and I don't intend to do what most do by p*ssing the other side off in a bizarre attempt to change theirs. All the skullduggery has taken place. It's done. Let's now get our votes in and see how much we Bremain by.

Serious question , why can the UK not be part of the future of the world outside the EU ? a lot more countries currently are doing that than are in the EU and are not aloof

[jim mk2]

If Cameron is ousted do you not think that Labour could muster enough votes to get vote of no confidance ?

Is wanting to trade with the rest of the world, 7.4 billion people, not more outward looking than limiting ourselves to just 500 million people ?

1. No

2. We already trade with the rest of the world. Why shut ourselves out of the world's biggest trading bloc?

[perthblue02]

1. No

2. We already trade with the rest of the world. Why shut ourselves out of the world's biggest trading bloc?

So we will not continue to be accepted in the World Trade Organisation ?

[Al]

1. No

2. We already trade with the rest of the world. Why shut ourselves out of the world's biggest trading bloc?

Don't be silly. We won't stop trading with Europe. That's a scare tactic and close to a downright lie. How low will you stoop to try to prove your point.

[RibbleValleyRover]

Don't be silly. We won't stop trading with Europe. That's a scare tactic and close to a downright lie. How low will you stoop to try to prove your point.

It could take years to set up a deal Al, optimistic predictions say it takes 2 years to leave the EU and then 6-7 years to get a deal in place. The UK will have to renegotiate deals with everyone.

[gumboots]

I want the UK to be part of the future and the world, not aloof from it. I'm not old enough to appreciate warm beer, the Empire, or Bisto nostalgia. Nobody can change my mind, and I don't intend to do what most do by p*ssing the other side off in a bizarre attempt to change theirs. All the skullduggery has taken place. It's done. Let's now get our votes in and see how much we Bremain by.

I am old enough to remember those things, but I too think our best chance of being an outward

looking country taking a full part in the future of Europe and the world is inside an albeit imperfect EU than outside, trying to get whatever deal we can as a fragmented, divided union. My local mp encouraged me to vote for my children and grandchildren. Well one of my children is about to take dual British and German citizenship which she needs to get through before the referendum incase it's a leave vote, as nobody knows if the Germans will continue to allow it afterwards. My grandchildren, 2 of them at least, already have dual citizenship with a German dad and an English mum. We are a European family whether we chose it or not, and I didn't get a vote in the earlier referendum because I was working in france at that time and postal votes were not allowed. If we vote to leave, make no mistake, it won't be an easy or amicable divorce. It will mess with things short and probably longerterm. I don't understand all the stuff I've read on here. I have a gut feeling that an immediate impact will be the French saying to migrants off you go to Britain then, to those camped there and any others who arrive so migration to Britain will get worse. I have no proof, no statistics, but I do know the French. They're great friends to have but stroppy as he'll if you get on the wrong side of them. However, as I say, I've no real political understanding. It just seems to me that to have a say is better than to have no say. Outward going Britain would have little say on terms, and in the time it takes would find itself increasingly isolated within. I'll be voting remain. I don't know if it's right. How does anyone know? But it feels right to me.

[Paul]

Well said gumboots

[yoda]

I am old enough to remember those things, but I too think our best chance of being an outward

looking country taking a full part in the future of Europe and the world is inside an albeit imperfect EU than outside, trying to get whatever deal we can as a fragmented, divided union. My local mp encouraged me to vote for my children and grandchildren. Well one of my children is about to take dual British and German citizenship which she needs to get through before the referendum incase it's a leave vote, as nobody knows if the Germans will continue to allow it afterwards. My grandchildren, 2 of them at least, already have dual citizenship with a German dad and an English mum. We are a European family whether we chose it or not, and I didn't get a vote in the earlier referendum because I was working in france at that time and postal votes were not allowed. If we vote to leave, make no mistake, it won't be an easy or amicable divorce. It will mess with things short and probably longerterm. I don't understand all the stuff I've read on here. I have a gut feeling that an immediate impact will be the French saying to migrants off you go to Britain then, to those camped there and any others who arrive so migration to Britain will get worse. I have no proof, no statistics, but I do know the French. They're great friends to have but stroppy as he'll if you get on the wrong side of them. However, as I say, I've no real political understanding. It just seems to me that to have a say is better than to have no say. Outward going Britain would have little say on terms, and in the time it takes would find itself increasingly isolated within. I'll be voting remain. I don't know if it's right. How does anyone know? But it feels right to me.

Good post gumboots, like you say no one has proof either way which is a failing of both camps. It is down to a personal judgement call.

Refreshing to see a post that does not contain the personal insults that some are using.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

The highest ranked country on the HDI index, which basically means living standards of its populace, is Norway. By quite a way and for quite a while now. A regular in the top 3 is Switzerland. Both outside the EU.

Neither have a GDP close to that of Britain and certainly their trade deficit isn't in the same ballpark. Both things mean we have far more bargaining power than both Norway and Switzerland, who even without than are doing absolutely fine, more than fine, outside the EU.

All these economic, social, political, whatever other prophecies of doom the Remain side can come out with, are based on nothing more than extremely prejudiced speculation. They're as far away from factual as it's possible to get because Remain has no idea what'll happen. Neither doesn't Brexit. But not knowing certainly doesn't equal the worst case scenario in all facets.

It's amazingly hypocritical how long the political left have trotted out the phrase "scare stories" regarding issues such as immigration. Increased migration brings an increased terror threat? Scare story. Eurotunnel drivers are becoming at risk of assault from Calais migrants? Scare story. Migration into Europe is utterly out of control? Scare story. Turkey and it's Islamist president might be allowed to join the EU? Scare story. The NHS will be privatised, a Nazi Tory government will seize power, austerity will increase, we'll get rubbish/no trade deals, there'll be an emergency budget, Scotland will leave the UK, the aliens off Independence Day will really invade. What do you mean scare stories??

[gumboots]

You seen prices in Norway and Switzerland? Don't know what wages are but prices in Norway the other week shocked us and we knew they'd be high