[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

You seen prices in Norway and Switzerland? Don't know what wages are but prices in Norway the other week shocked us and we knew they'd be high

Well like I said they consistently have the highest living standard in the world. Which as far as I'm aware is a pretty thorough judgement of everything, including the population's ability to afford commodities. So yeah I reckon the average wage significantly exceeds what it is here.

[perthblue02]

My major concern based on what I've seen online is vote leave winning, then the NHS getting privatised. I've just got a horrible feeling it's what will happen. Hope it isn't, but I feel like it will.

Do you not think the NHS can be privatised even if Britain remains in the EU? Why would the EU stop a democratically elected Government changing the scope of their state health care?

Edit:

https://fullfact.org/europe/does-ttip-mean-privatisation-nhs/

So in theory as part of the EU negotiations regarding the TTIP you could be voting for a privatised NHS, No wonder Obama and the American big banks and businesses are backing Remain

Of course exclusions could be negotiated, so it is no more likely privatisation of the NHS will occur in as it would out at this present time

[Al]

It could take years to set up a deal Al, optimistic predictions say it takes 2 years to leave the EU and then 6-7 years to get a deal in place. The UK will have to renegotiate deals with everyone.

We won't stop trading in the meantime will we even if your prediction is right, which I doubt.

[Stuart]

Privatisation of the NHS has been talked about for years - independent of the EU referendum. Another scare story. Somebody is really panicking.

I've been very much undecided about one but I'm beginning to get very @#/? off indeed about all of the threats being made by the Tory party that they will punish the electorate if Leave wins - tax increases and pensions under threat. It's do as I say or we will ensure that there will be consequences for you - but if you do agree with me then things will be great - trust me. It doesn't help when the most vocal arguments I'm reading for staying are from ex-pats and people who seem to thing Leave voters are all thicko closet racists who only care about immigration.

If we vote leave, where are the Bolton's that we won't be paying to the EU going to go? If anything, the UK leaving the EU is more likely to trigger further referendums across Europe - starting in Germany.

"Out - and into the world" is looking more and more alluring. Providing we have the government in place to seize the opportunity.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/out-and-into-the-world-why-the-spectator-is-for-leave/

[yoda]

Privatisation of the NHS has been talked about for years - independent of the EU referendum. Another scare story. Somebody is really panicking.

I've been very much undecided about one but I'm beginning to get very @#/? off indeed about all of the threats being made by the Tory party that they will punish the electorate if Leave wins - tax increases and pensions under threat. It's do as I say or we will ensure that there will be consequences for you - but if you do agree with me then things will be great - trust me. It doesn't help when the most vocal arguments I'm reading for staying are from ex-pats and people who seem to thing Leave voters are all thicko closet racists who only care about immigration.

If we vote leave, where are the Bolton's that we won't be paying to the EU going to go? If anything, the UK leaving the EU is more likely to trigger further referendums across Europe - starting in Germany.

"Out - and into the world" is looking more and more alluring. Providing we have the government in place to seize the opportunity.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/out-and-into-the-world-why-the-spectator-is-for-leave/

France will have a referendum before Germany, that will happen whether we stay in or out.

[gumboots]

France will have a referendum before Germany, that will happen whether we stay in or out.

What makes you think that? Have they promised one? I hadn't heard it if so .

[yoda]

What makes you think that? Have they promised one? I hadn't heard it if so .

Looking at the polls and talking to people in France.

Latest polls showing 61% of French areout of favour with the EU

[K-Hod]

Do you not think the NHS can be privatised even if Britain remains in the EU? Why would the EU stop a democratically elected Government changing the scope of their state health care?

Edit:

https://fullfact.org/europe/does-ttip-mean-privatisation-nhs/

So in theory as part of the EU negotiations regarding the TTIP you could be voting for a privatised NHS, No wonder Obama and the American big banks and businesses are backing Remain

Of course exclusions could be negotiated, so it is no more likely privatisation of the NHS will occur in as it would out at this present time

Of course Perth. This referendum is about more than the EU IMO. It's not a scare tactic, just a hunch. I don't think Cameron would survive as leader if vote leave win. I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption either. Again, it's not scare tactics, just what I think will happen. Nobody knows what will happen if we did leave the EU, that's for sure. People will vote as they see fit and that's their right.

The NHS is excluded from TTIP I believe....

[perthblue02]

Of course Perth. This referendum is about more than the EU IMO. It's not a scare tactic, just a hunch. I don't think Cameron would survive as leader if vote leave win. I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption either. Again, it's not scare tactics, just what I think will happen. Nobody knows what will happen if we did leave the EU, that's for sure. People will vote as they see fit and that's their right.

The NHS is excluded from TTIP I believe....

As of the 20th May it seems nothing as been decided , like you say lot is on who you trust

From the link i posted previously.

There’s no final text to look at, and the legal issues involved are complicated. It comes down to trust: the European Commission has consistently said that the terms it’s negotiating will keep the NHS safe from privatisation.

The government’s position is that nothing in TTIP will affect its ability to make decisions on the NHS.

For the NHS to be at risk, the Commission would have to be hiding something, or (as has been argued) simply mistaken about whether there's a loophole in the terms it proposes. That’s something we can’t be sure of until the final wording is put to the test.

[yoda]

As of the 20th May it seems nothing as been decided , like you say lot is on who you trust

From the link i posted previously.

There’s no final text to look at, and the legal issues involved are complicated. It comes down to trust: the European Commission has consistently said that the terms it’s negotiating will keep the NHS safe from privatisation.

The government’s position is that nothing in TTIP will affect its ability to make decisions on the NHS.

For the NHS to be at risk, the Commission would have to be hiding something, or (as has been argued) simply mistaken about whether there's a loophole in the terms it proposes. That’s something we can’t be sure of until the final wording is put to the test.

Think I read that the support services are not protected though

[joey_big_nose]

The highest ranked country on the HDI index, which basically means living standards of its populace, is Norway. By quite a way and for quite a while now. A regular in the top 3 is Switzerland. Both outside the EU.

Norway is a terrible comparison due to the vast oil reserves that underpin the economy.

Switzerland is more viable. Its a financial services economy similar to the UK. That said while outside the EU it still has to abide by virtually all EU regulations including the free movement of people (as does Norway). Lack of understanding about how these comparison countries work with the EU is extremely pervasive, including by well read and intelligent people like yourself.

http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/immigration-and-justice/norway-and-switzerland/

[gumboots]

I know the commentary on our trip round Stavanger told us that from the start a percentage of the oil revenues had to be invested in the infrastructure by the government and only a certain amount could be spent on other things

[gumboots]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-leave-european-union-norway-prime-minister-erna-solberg-warning-a7084926.html

Just came across this

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Norway is a terrible comparison due to the vast oil reserves that underpin the economy.

Switzerland is more viable. Its a financial services economy similar to the UK. That said while outside the EU it still has to abide by virtually all EU regulations including the free movement of people (as does Norway). Lack of understanding about how these comparison countries work with the EU is extremely pervasive, including by well read and intelligent people like yourself.

http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/immigration-and-justice/norway-and-switzerland/

Fair enough they don't prove my argument, I mainly referenced them as examples for why there's no proof of the counter argument (I.e. that we are economically doomed without the EU).

[yoda]

Economically doomed are Greece, Italy and France

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36567863

Nice one President Erdogan, another battle won in his quest to reverse all secular progress made in Turkey.

Would be a nightmare if we stayed in the EU and then this lot managed to blackmail their way in a few years later in exchange for restricting migration.

Being part of a one big country (effectively) with a society where people get assaulted with sticks and bottles for listening to music. Wonder what Churchill would have made of all this.

[jim mk2]

Don't be silly. We won't stop trading with Europe. That's a scare tactic and close to a downright lie. How low will you stoop to try to prove your point.

The likes of Switzerland and Norway have to pay to trade with the EU and similarly Britain will be locked out of the single market unless we pay almost a similar sum to the one we currently remit. We will also have to accept freedom of movement.

The mantra that we will be liberated from Europe to go out into the world is a disingenuous fantasy. The WTO makes agreements through the EU. There will be no special deal for Britain. We will be back of the queue. We will not be reclaiming our sovereignty; we will simply be alone

[jim mk2]

Being part of a one big country (effectively) with a society where people get assaulted with sticks and bottles for listening to music. Wonder what Churchill would have made of all this.

We live in a country where an MP was gunned down in the street. I wonder what Churchill would have made of that.

Turkey and the nonsense of the Brexit camp's scare stories.

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/turkey-eu-membership-cameron-brexit

[joey_big_nose]

A good considered analysis from a Professor of European Law and Economics at the University of Liverpool.

https://www.facebook.com/UniversityofLiverpool/videos/1293361974024537/

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

We live in a country where an MP was gunned down in the street. I wonder what Churchill would have made of that.

Turkey and the nonsense of the Brexit camp's scare stories.

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/turkey-eu-membership-cameron-brexit

Sorry but I wouldn't give more than a second glance to publications who think it's viable to use extreme swear words in their headline titles. I mean how utterly ridiculous, would you expect me to quote neo-Nazi sources to you? That's what these socialist-communist idiot havens are, at least in my opinion.

Dismissing Turkey's imminent membership of the EU is a total abandonment of logic. As I keep saying, we (/they hopefully) either let me them in and incorporate Erdogan's fascist/Islamist views into the union, or we tell them to do one and instead incorporate millions of predominantly adult male migrants from the middle east instead. Either way we lose.

Have to say it astonishes me the hypocrisy of your political position. Apparently left wing, apparently ultra-liberal, apparently unshakeable in the face of right-wing scum. But a bunch of fascist Islamists assault people with weapons for listening to music, and no matter what you don't wanna know. Christ, principles? Embarrassing if you ask me.

[Paul]

Dismissing Turkey's imminent membership of the EU is a total abandonment of logic.

This isn't accurate. Whatever the issues Turkey's EU membership may or may not bring her joining the EU is decades away and far from imminent.

To date Turkey and the EU have only agreed one of the thirty-five chapters required before she can become a member. The talks on Turkey's EU accession began 11 years ago in 2005.

The visa free EU travel proposal in relation to the migrant question does not include Britain as we are not in the Schengen area.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35832035

https://next.ft.com/content/57556aa2-1e9a-11e6-b286-cddde55ca122

This, in general not yourself, is a leave scare story mainly hyped up by Nigel Farage.

[Paul]

Leave or Remain?

This link sums up the choice we will be making on Thursday. One of the simplest and clearest I've seen.

https://medium.com/@tristanjakobhoff/a-vote-for-leave-will-most-likely-increase-immigration-and-reduce-our-sovereignty-d62c3211e7f#.38oygj5h1

[philipl]

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/a5d4c2df7ffc9d7d7cea28c147939c8831aa249e/0_0_620_372/master/620.jpg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=f133cbec28ac9b3ff85fd6a34f5c2923

For what it is worth, The Mail on Sunday has come out strongly for Remain.

[Stuart]

I think the referendum will come down to how happy people currently are with their lot.

If you are unhappy and want better then you will be inspired by the idea of a change of prospects. You will be angered by the rhetoric from the very people that are responsible for your current unhappiness. You will revolt at the idea that if you don't support them (especially the UK government) then they will make your already unhappy lot worse - as a punishment.

If you are happy with how things are and are prospering then you will vote to keep things as they are, and you will say anything you can to try to convince others that we must not change.

Ultimately the public will vote for their own self interests.

[jim mk2]

Have to say it astonishes me the hypocrisy of your political position. Apparently left wing, apparently ultra-liberal, apparently unshakeable in the face of right-wing scum. But a bunch of fascist Islamists assault people with weapons for listening to music, and no matter what you don't wanna know. Christ, principles? Embarrassing if you ask me.

You embarrass yourself with your obsession with Islam and Muslims in general. Some people would say you had a phobia.

You'd also realise that instead of quoting the right wing media and with the the tiniest bit of research your stuff about Turkey is way off the mark.