[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[Al]

The likes of Switzerland and Norway have to pay to trade with the EU and similarly Britain will be locked out of the single market unless we pay almost a similar sum to the one we currently remit. We will also have to accept freedom of movement.

The mantra that we will be liberated from Europe to go out into the world is a disingenuous fantasy. The WTO makes agreements through the EU. There will be no special deal for Britain. We will be back of the queue. We will not be reclaiming our sovereignty; we will simply be alone

Stop twisting the truth Jim. We don't have to be part of the single market to trade. We will still want German cars, the French can keep theirs, and Europe will still want what we have to offer.

You embarrass yourself with your obsession with Islam and Muslims in general. Some people would say you had a phobia.

You'd also realise that instead of quoting the right wing media and with the the tiniest bit of research your stuff about Turkey is way off the mark.

It's not an obsession he has. It's about self preservation.

[Al]

We live in a country where an MP was gunned down in the street. I wonder what Churchill would have made of that.

Turkey and the nonsense of the Brexit camp's scare stories.

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/turkey-eu-membership-cameron-brexit

It's embarrassing that you will stoop so low as to try to make political advantage out of somebody being killed. I thought you were better than that but I am now beginning to wonder.

[Mike E]

You embarrass yourself with your obsession with Islam and Muslims in general. Some people would say you had a phobia.

You'd also realise that instead of quoting the right wing media and with the the tiniest bit of research your stuff about Turkey is way off the mark.

You of all people have no right to talk down to anyone, let alone call them an embarrassment.

[Al]

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/a5d4c2df7ffc9d7d7cea28c147939c8831aa249e/0_0_620_372/master/620.jpg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=f133cbec28ac9b3ff85fd6a34f5c2923

For what it is worth, The Mail on Sunday has come out strongly for Remain.

If that is the Fail on Sunday's take on the referendum it's a very good reason to leave.

[joey_big_nose]

Stop twisting the truth Jim. We don't have to be part of the single market to trade. We will still want German cars, the French can keep theirs, and Europe will still want what we have to offer.

Yes but we will have to pay tariffs on imports and exports with the EU. As a result the cost of production and living will become higher. Hence the IMFs forecast that the economy will shrink by 5% over the next 3 years if we exit the common market.

Likelihood therefore is if we leave the EU we will try to stay in the common market to avoid tariffs. However this will put us in the position (like Switzerland and Norway) where we have to accept all EU regulations and laws - including freedom of movement of people - without being able to contribute to shaping them. It would be a hilariously bad choice.

[philipl]

Stop twisting the truth Jim. We don't have to be part of the single market to trade. We will still want German cars, the French can keep theirs, and Europe will still want what we have to offer.

It's not an obsession he has. It's about self preservation.

Leaving the single economic market is a certain recipe for economic catastrophe in the UK

[jim mk2]

Stop twisting the truth Jim. We don't have to be part of the single market to trade. We will still want German cars, the French can keep theirs, and Europe will still want what we have to offer.

You seem to be missing the point. The truth is that if we want to trade with the EU like Norway and Switzerland we will have to pay an entry fee not much less than what we pay at present.

It's embarrassing that you will stoop so low as to try to make political advantage out of somebody being killed. I thought you were better than that but I am now beginning to wonder.

It's not taking any "advantage". It's an admittedly extreme response to a similarly extreme view by another poster.

I'm very flattered that you seem to want to respond to all my posts but could you please back up your views with some facts?

[Al]

Leaving the single economic market is a certain recipe for economic catastrophe in the UK

Jim mk3

[Al]

You seem to be missing the point. The truth is that if we want to trade with the EU like Norway and Switzerland we will have to pay an entry fee not much less than what we pay at present.

It costs nothing to trade with Europeans. It only costs if you want to be part of the common market.

It's not taking any "advantage". It's an admittedly extreme response to a similarly extreme view by another poster.

I'm very flattered that you seem to want to respond to all my posts but could you please back up your views with some facts?

You are using a very nasty murder to make political points to further your opinion - FACT.

Don't be flattered. Your posts are basically bunkum.

[jim mk2]

t costs nothing to trade with Europeans. It only costs if you want to be part of the common market.

You need to read this then come back with arguments based on facts

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/can-uk-have-deal-eu-switzerland-or-norway

[philipl]

Exports to the UK comprise 3% of German GDP and 2.2% of French GDP.

You really are deluding yourselves if you seriously think the rules of the Single Market would be adjusted because of German and French pressure to save exports.

Instead they will be salivating at the prospect of Britain being outside the Single Economic Market and taking hundreds of thousands of manufacturing and services jobs away from the UK.

Thankfully and at last, Gove has distanced himself from UKIP. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/19/michael-gove-george-osborne-condemn-nigel-farage-anti-immigration-poster-eu

[Al]

You need to read this then come back with arguments based on facts

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/can-uk-have-deal-eu-switzerland-or-norway

We don't need a deal to trade. We just have to buy and sell in an open market, not a closed section of the market. Saying we need a deal is a remain tactic

Exports to the UK comprise 3% of German GDP and 2.2% of French GDP.

You really are deluding yourselves if you seriously think the rules of the Single Market would be adjusted because of German and French pressure to save exports.

Instead they will be salivating at the prospect of Britain being outside the Single Economic Market and taking hundreds of thousands of manufacturing and services jobs away from the UK.

Thankfully and at last, Gove has distanced himself from UKIP. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/19/michael-gove-george-osborne-condemn-nigel-farage-anti-immigration-poster-eu

Stop stating your theories as fact. We all know that Brexit is a threat to your way of life but the rest of us relish independence. Well a lot of us anyway.

[perthblue02]

Interesting comments from the working class , democracy advocate and left wing cheer leader Billy Brag

"If you're a leftist for Brexit, I urge you to abstain rather than unleash forces that we have opposed for so long"

Was he not on the marches opposing Cameron, the big banks and big corp inc, those same forces that they have opposed so long that are backing the remain campaign? One thing that this referendum is throwing up is some strange bedfellows.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/7012775/Billy-Bragg-in-protest-against-bankers.html

Still if remain wins at least these sort of people will not be moaning about anything their new friends do in the future

[Mike E]

Interesting comments from the working class , democracy and left wing cheer leader Billy Brag

"If you're a leftist for Brexit, I urge you to abstain rather than unleash forces that we have opposed for so long"

Uhmm was he not on the marches opposing Cameron, the big banks and big corp inc, those same forces that they have opposed so long that are backing the remain campaign?

Translates as 'only voice your opinion if you agree with me'. Quite a fascistic attitude from a left wing supporter.

[jim mk2]

We don't need a deal to trade. We just have to buy and sell in an open market, not a closed section of the market. Saying we need a deal is a remain tactic

Your opinion. Show me a link to the facts to back it up.

The New Statesman and many other sources show you won't find any.

[joey_big_nose]

We don't need a deal to trade. We just have to buy and sell in an open market, not a closed section of the market.

.

This is true. We would go to the baseline WTO trading rules which would mean we have to pay tariffs and is the basis for the 5% GDP contraction forecasted over the nex 3 years.

[yoda]

This is true. We would go to the baseline WTO trading rules which would mean we have to pay tariffs and is the basis for the 5% GDP contraction forecasted over the nex 3 years.

Just one small example, out of the EU wine from Australia would be 15% cheaper

[gumboots]

Exports to the UK comprise 3% of German GDP and 2.2% of French GDP.

You really are deluding yourselves if you seriously think the rules of the Single Market would be adjusted because of German and French pressure to save exports.

Instead they will be salivating at the prospect of Britain being outside the Single Economic Market and taking hundreds of thousands of manufacturing and services jobs away from the UK.

Thankfully and at last, Gove has distanced himself from UKIP. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/19/michael-gove-george-osborne-condemn-nigel-farage-anti-immigration-poster-eu

Doesn't matter how far he distances himself from UKIP. He can't distance himself from the total mess he made of education and he can't stop being the arrogant, I know best and don't need to listen to anyone who actually knows anything moron that he was when in charge of education. The prospect of his being in government at all after the referendum should be enough to make most people think twice before voting out.

[philipl]

We don't need a deal to trade. We just have to buy and sell in an open market, not a closed section of the market. Saying we need a deal is a remain tactic

Stop stating your theories as fact. We all know that Brexit is a threat to your way of life but the rest of us relish independence. Well a lot of us anyway.

So what facts are you offering?

And Britain will enjoy vastly more independence as part of the EU than it will out of it.

[gumboots]

It's odd isn't it? I'm not actually pro EU and if I'd been able to vote in 1975 I'd have probably voted out. But I find myself becoming more and more convinced we should Remain every time someone tells me why they think leaving is a good idea. Those who say leave seem to be all about how we are a great country that can stand on our own 2 feet whereas all the evidence suggests to me that to run with the big boys nowadays you have to be pretty big yourself and we won't be. I find myself becoming more European than I ever thought I'd be. someone said to me the other day " I think about the guys who died in the first and second world wars to stop us being ruled by Germany and I know I have to vote out." I remember my dad who fought his way in a tank from Normandy to Brussels then on to Berlin, who told me of the good people he'd met, French, Belgian, German, none of whom had really wanted any of what had happened and I think, there's a better chance of avoiding it again if we work together rather than being apart. It's not a case of being ruled by Germany. It's a case of working together with as many of our neighbours as possible to build a better world in the short term for ourselves and in the longer term for future generations, and I don't see how that will be easier outside the EU. I don't have facts. It's down to how you feel. And I'm starting to feel European as well as British.

[jim mk2]

Various polls today showing Remain back in the lead although the FT poll of polls has the 2 camps tied. The Cox killing seems to have resonated with some people as associated with the extremist immigration language of the Brexiteers (Farage unbelievably complained the MP's murder had taken the momentum of the Leave surge on TV today) while the disgraceful Leave poster showing Syrian refugees (condemned even by Gove) seems to have backfired. It all points to being very close 1 or 2 percentage points either way on June 23.

[philipl]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3648592/Bienvenue-Londres-s-Boris-said-French-reveals-former-mayoral-adviser-GUTO-HARRI-earth-changed-EU-tune.html

Boris hard at work as Mayor of London in Paris encouraging the French to immigrate to London.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLQ3Gbiopc4

Boris arguing for Turkey to join the EU

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/mayor-launches-bid-to-give-london-greater-powers-too-9743657.html

Boris arguing for greater powers for London independent of England.

"Leaving would cause years of uncertainty, while embroiling Government for years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy away from the real problems which have nothing to do with Europe."

Boris Johnson speaking this year just 15 weeks ago...

[joey_big_nose]

Just one small example, out of the EU wine from Australia would be 15% cheaper

im sure thats true but forecasts on the growth of the economy need to be predicted on a huge range of data on cost of sale of products and services and flows of investment capital. Its nonsensical to pick out single examples. It needs a holistic analysis and all of those who have performed one are strongly in favour of remain to sustain growth, and predict contraction if we leave.

[philipl]

If that is the Fail on Sunday's take on the referendum it's a very good reason to leave.

If like me you don't like the Daily Fail then try this:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/18/eu-referendum-campaign-poison-time-to-reflect

[perthblue02]

The progressive argument for leave is not being heard (from the Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/19/progressive-argument-for-leaving-eu-is-not-being-heard-referendum-brexit