[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[yoda]

im sure thats true but forecasts on the growth of the economy need to be predicted on a huge range of data on cost of sale of products and services and flows of investment capital. Its nonsensical to pick out single examples. It needs a holistic analysis and all of those who have performed one are strongly in favour of remain to sustain growth, and predict contraction if we leave.

I am checking other products I buy for the business and guess what, 6 out of 7 so far will be cheaper, so far.

[philipl]

http://capx.co/dont-be-fooled-by-the-sovereignty-delusion-the-eu-makes-us-richer-safer-and-freer/

An extremely succinct destruction of the argument that sovereignty would be increased by Brexit.

[jim mk2]

Chris Patten, the former Conservative party chairman, accused Nigel Farage today of peddling “filth” over the Syria refugee poster.

He also turned his fire on the two senior Tories leading the Brexit campaign, saying: “The ruefully sanctimonious Vote Leave campaigners Michael Gove and Boris Johnson may want to reflect on some of the company they keep and the arguments they use."

David Cameron also said the Leave camp "has created a hostile and intolerant climate in the country through its focus on immigration".

In light of recent events no one could argue with that.

[yoda]

http://capx.co/dont-be-fooled-by-the-sovereignty-delusion-the-eu-makes-us-richer-safer-and-freer/

An extremely succinct destruction of the argument that sovereignty would be increased by Brexit.

from the transcript

"Philippe Legrain, who was economic adviser to the President of the European Commission from 2011 to 2014"

so this guy has over seen the demise of Greece, France unemployment reaching 13 % and two weeks ago the French finance minister said France was on the verge of financial emergency measures, Spain's economy wrecked, Italy on the verge of collapse. Stagnation in the Eurozone, mass unemployment in the Eurozone. QA on an unprecedented scale in Europe.

Good choice Philip

[Mike E]

I've heard the best argument for 'Leave' today (as in, the only thing that comes close to a 'truth' from either side imo):

'Look at all the high profile people who want to remain. They're all 'in' the establishment. They're the ones who either HAVE the money, or move it around, or have a vested personal interest in keeping it at the top table'.

It strikes me as quite an anarchist or even communist argument, but it rings truer than anything put forward by either campaign.

Still on the fence. Merely 'leaning' to OUT (as I do) won't make me vote out. At the moment, it's a cross in both boxes to register a spoilt vote.

[yoda]

I've heard the best argument for 'Leave' today (as in, the only thing that comes close to a 'truth' from either side imo):

'Look at all the high profile people who want to remain. They're all 'in' the establishment. They're the ones who either HAVE the money, or move it around, or have a vested personal interest in keeping it at the top table'.

It strikes me as quite an anarchist or even communist argument, but it rings truer than anything put forward by either campaign.

Still on the fence. Merely 'leaning' to OUT (as I do) won't make me vote out. At the moment, it's a cross in both boxes to register a spoilt vote.

What do you think the "establishment" are capable of to get their way ?

[Mike E]

What do you think the "establishment" are capable of to get their way ?

Ignoring the referendum result springs to mind

[yoda]

Ignoring the referendum result springs to mind

I think they are capable of much more than that

[K-Hod]

I've heard the best argument for 'Leave' today (as in, the only thing that comes close to a 'truth' from either side imo):

'Look at all the high profile people who want to remain. They're all 'in' the establishment. They're the ones who either HAVE the money, or move it around, or have a vested personal interest in keeping it at the top table'.

It strikes me as quite an anarchist or even communist argument, but it rings truer than anything put forward by either campaign.

Still on the fence. Merely 'leaning' to OUT (as I do) won't make me vote out. At the moment, it's a cross in both boxes to register a spoilt vote.

Could easily say the first bit about some of the out campaigners as well. The owner of Dyson, supporting 'vote leave', moved his factory to Malaysia, with a grant from the EU! He also wanted us to join the Euro currency....

All this mudslinging and dishonesty has been shameful from both sides, no side has been better than the other as far as I can tell, re the scaremongering/hypocrisy.

[yoda]

Could easily say the first bit about some of the out campaigners as well. The owner of Dyson, supporting 'vote leave', moved his factory to Malaysia, with a grant from the EU! He also wanted us to join the Euro currency....

He does seem to be doing rather well operating outside the EU

[K-Hod]

He does seem to be doing rather well operating outside the EU

Not disputing that, nice to get a grant from them though to enable him to do so in the first place eh?

[Mike E]

Could easily say the first bit about some of the out campaigners as well. The owner of Dyson, supporting 'vote leave', moved his factory to Malaysia, with a grant from the EU! He also wanted us to join the Euro currency....

I did think about that, but just look at how many powerful or wealthy people want Britain to stay in the EU!

I'm yet to meet someone who is 'working class' (as the older generations of my family are) defending the Remain camp. Then again, I know there's a considerable 'SOMETHING has to change' view more than any actual anti-EU sentiment.

[perthblue02]

I did think about that, but just look at how many powerful or wealthy people want Britain to stay in the EU!

I'm yet to meet someone who is 'working class' (as the older generations of my family are) defending the Remain camp. Then again, I know there's a considerable 'SOMETHING has to change' view more than any actual anti-EU sentiment.

Never mind looking at the powerful and wealthy in Britain look at the powerful and wealthy in America that are sticking their noses /funding in to the remain campaign. Surely they are not in it for the good of the average Brit.

I think the remain vote are going to be in for a shock in the next couple of years when all the delayed legislation and budget proposals are released.

What we do know is the EU need an extra 20 Billion for current budget short falls

[gumboots]

I did think about that, but just look at how many powerful or wealthy people want Britain to stay in the EU!

I'm yet to meet someone who is 'working class' (as the older generations of my family are) defending the Remain camp. Then again, I know there's a considerable 'SOMETHING has to change' view more than any actual anti-EU sentiment.

me Michael. I'd qualify as older generation and very definitely working class. My grandad worked on the docks on teesside, when he could get work. He went navvy in on the roads when he couldn't. My other grandad worked in the brick works and my nanna cleaned for a local solicitor. Her family were in service. I will be voting remain. I'm not posh, never have been and don't want to be but my head says remain and my gut feeling does too

[jim mk2]

Baroness Warsi, former Tory party chairman (and a particularly unpleasant woman), switched from the Leave to the Remain camp tonight because of Farage's Syria poster and "the hate and divisiveness" of the Brexit campaign. Are the rats leaving the sinking ship?

[perthblue02]

Baroness Warsi, former Tory party chairman (and a particularly unpleasant woman), switched from the Leave to the Remain camp tonight because of Farage's Syria poster and "the hate and divisiveness" of the Brexit campaign. Are the rats leaving the sinking ship?

Whilst a despicable poster (the syria poster , not you ) as you mention a very unpleasant woman who has changed her mind on Gay rights when it suited her ,also failed to declare rental income and also found guilty of breaches of the ministerial code involving expenses. So she is probably better in the remain camp, maybe a potential Labour MEP candidate now you are on the same side?, just think of all those big expenses she could fiddle and all that red tape to hide behind and never be caught.

Speaking of which, all got to be paid for

"The European Parliament lags far behind other parliamentary bodies, such as Sweden and the UK, when it comes to the transparency of parliamentary expenses,"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34882500

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/29/most-meps-claim-every-penny-of-office-expenses/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/12182738/MEPs-allowed-to-claim-120000-in-expenses-without-proof-of-how-money-is-spent.html

[Mike E]

me Michael. I'd qualify as older generation and very definitely working class. My grandad worked on the docks on teesside, when he could get work. He went navvy in on the roads when he couldn't. My other grandad worked in the brick works and my nanna cleaned for a local solicitor. Her family were in service. I will be voting remain. I'm not posh, never have been and don't want to be but my head says remain and my gut feeling does too

Goes to show that views can depend on with whom people mix most, I guess.

I think you touched on it properly there, too. No matter what happens, or what the campaigns say, come Thursday most people will vote with their gut feeling rather than logic.

Can anyone on here honestly say they have swapped sides and why?

[perthblue02]

Jeremy Corbyn "infuriates" Moderate Labour's MP's by admitting there is no upper limit on EU Migration to Britain if Britain votes remain.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/19/jeremy-corbyn-there-is-no-upper-limit-to-eu-migration/

I would hope people who are already decided leave or remain would back me up on this , this site is definitely worth reading for as near an impartial view on issues and claims from both sides.

https://fullfact.org

A couple of videos from the Corporate Europe Observatory regarding the EU and Big Corp INC (about 10 and 8 mins ) Released in 2014

[Stuart]

I would hope people who are already decided leave or remain would back me up on this , this site is definitely worth reading for as near an impartial view on issues and claims from both sides.

https://fullfact.org

Might be "impartial" but it's not at all balanced. Still only bad news if we leave.

[Paul]

Jeremy Corbyn "infuriates" Moderate Labour's MP's by admitting there is no upper limit on EU Migration to Britain if Britain votes remain.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/19/jeremy-corbyn-there-is-no-upper-limit-to-eu-migration/

I would hope people who are already decided leave or remain would back me up on this , this site is definitely worth reading for as near an impartial view on issues and claims from both sides.

https://fullfact.org

A couple of videos from the Corporate Europe Observatory regarding the EU and Big Corp INC (about 10 and 8 mins ) Released in 2014

https://youtu.be/5pRyFhu1A08

https://youtu.be/spBdTcaY3_Q

I'd hope people will take the time to read the full article and/or watch the full interview so as to put his remarks in context.

. Then again, I know there's a considerable 'SOMETHING has to change' view more than any actual anti-EU sentiment.

In which case they should consider voting Remain on Thursday and Labour in the next general election.

People should listen to Corbyn and not simply jump on his case because of a perceived poor dress sense, failing to wear a poppy or whatever.

[ABBEY]

listen to corbyn? I trust owen coyle more with his sem chat.

[dave birch]

I'd hope people will take the time to read the full article and/or watch the full interview so as to put his remarks in context.

In which case they should consider voting Remain on Thursday and Labour in the next general election.

People should listen to Corbyn and not simply jump on his case because of a perceived poor dress sense, failing to wear a poppy or whatever.

Paul, I think part of the problem is "the fear of the unknown" (maybe not for you, as you would remember pre EU days).

I've been living "on the outer" for decades now, and it's done very well for me.

OK it may take a bit of work, things might go backwards for a while, but I'll bet that after a short period of time things would be on the up.

There is nothing to fear on being outside the EU, the world still turns, the sun still comes up and trade continues.

Australia did lose a bit of trade with the UK initially when the UK joined, but we're still here.

Those that point to the share market as an indicator should remember back to the Y2K fiasco, where planes were going to drop out of the air, trade was going to come to a shuddering halt etc. The market dropped, but as soon as it realised that everything was continuing it was business as usual.

If I were going to vote (and to annoy those that disagree vehemently), If I'd registered, I could have voted; and knowing what I know living outside the EU, I'd vote leave

[philipl]

If Britain votes Exit and the Exit is handled the way Michael Gove is arguing for, the provisions of the1998 Government of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland Acts would automatically transfer powers currently embodied in European legislation to the devolved bodies for those three countries. British legislation passed by the British Parliament would further massively disadvantage England if the devolution acts are not first significantly weakened.

Try getting that passed without triggering more referendums.

[Paul]

Paul, I think part of the problem is "the fear of the unknown" (maybe not for you, as you would remember pre EU days).

I've been living "on the outer" for decades now, and it's done very well for me.

OK it may take a bit of work, things might go backwards for a while, but I'll bet that after a short period of time things would be on the up.

There is nothing to fear on being outside the EU, the world still turns, the sun still comes up and trade continues.

Australia did lose a bit of trade with the UK initially when the UK joined, but we're still here.

Those that point to the share market as an indicator should remember back to the Y2K fiasco, where planes were going to drop out of the air, trade was going to come to a shuddering halt etc. The market dropped, but as soon as it realised that everything was continuing it was business as usual.

If I were going to vote (and to annoy those that disagree vehemently), If I'd registered, I could have voted; and knowing what I know living outside the EU, I'd vote leave

I couldn't disagree with you Dave on this and yes I'm obviously old enough to remember the life before. I don't fear the unknown but do believe we should not turn our backs on Europe. I also do not believe an exit will influence migration, a very serious issue, and worry this is the prime, if not only, reason many will vote leave.

I see myself as British and European. My kids are mongrels, my wife first generation, everyday I work with British, German, Asian (Muslim and non), Sikh, Syrian, Polish, Ukranian and Romanian people - probably some others. My doctor is Indian, my dentist is Syrian, my next door neighbour Italian. Some of my dearest friends are French. My children have their peers working all over Europe. The EU revolutionised and changed my industry forever - more positive than negative.

There's a world out there and we need to be friends with all of it not just the bits we fancy or ignore the bits we perceive to be damaging us.

I'm not sure you could vote though, more than 15 years as a non resident?

[T J Hooker]

i still havent received a voting card or anything that tells me where my voting station is, anybody else the same?

labour scam maybe! make it as hard as possible to vote for those living in areas that would obviously be more anti immigration, etc.